To Win is to Fail?

[IcyPatriot]

Tanking for a QB is a great strategy to energize ticket sales.

 

[Kontradiction]

I am aware you never drew that conclusion, i am pointing out that this is the reason you point is wrong.
If you think tanking is fine because culture starts over every year and you think Belichick believes culture starts over every year then there is no consistency in that unless Belichick tanked when in your opinion it would have been a good move AND in your opinion he agrees.
He didn’t.

Aside from that the spewing of insults and condescension tells me we should move on because I doubt anyone on the board wants these type of posts clogging up the works.

Swing and a miss again. Tanking is fine for the Dolphins because they clearly planned to bottom out, accumulated the picks in doing so, then decided they wanted to win a couple of meaningless games at the halfway point. Maybe if I bold the next sentence, it will help you. The point about every year being a new story was in response to posters saying that winning now helps the culture with next season’s team. It had nothing to do with supporting tanking. It had nothing to do with BB supposedly supporting tanking. You’ve conjured these counterpoints up out of thin air then you took those conjured-up counterpoints, tried falsely to attribute them to me, and got absolutely hammered for it. Reading is fundamental, bud. Read the entire thread, follow the flow of the conversation, and then contribute. If you’re not sure what you’re reading, which you clearly weren’t, ask questions. I’ll be happy to clarify. But don’t cry about getting “insulted” when you jump into a conversation and peddle nothing but logical fallacies. You might want to Google what a logical fallacy is. It’ll help you.

Let me help you out and facilitate a conversation that is at least pertinent to the thread and to my prior posts. First, tell me what you think the Dolphins were doing at the outset of the year when they shed the players they shed for draft picks. Do you think they were doing that with an eye toward winning in 2019? Why or why not? Second, give me the pros and cons of the Dolphins winning at this point in the year. Thirdly, agree or disagree with this statement - every season is its own story. This blueprint will help get you on track.

 

[Kontradiction]

Tanking for a QB is a great strategy to energize ticket sales.

In reality, collapsing ticket sales (even worse than usual for them) most likely contributed to them putting Fitz in there. Another likelihood/reality is that winning a few games here and there while missing the playoffs has probably contributed heavily to putting Miami in this position, and the position they’ve been in since Marino retired.

 

[luuked]

The point about every year being a new story was in response to posters saying that winning now helps the culture with next season’s team.

To be fair I don't think culture should be seen as a seasonal thing. It is the most fundamental philosophy of your organisation and has no expiration date.

Flores showing that he will continue to put his team into a position to win no matter what he is given by his GM goes towards that. You often can't control the circumstances but you have control over your response to them.

 

[Kontradiction]

To be fair I don't think culture should be seen as a seasonal thing. It is the most fundamental philosophy of your organisation and has no expiration date.

Flores showing that he will continue to put his team into a position to win no matter what he is given by his GM goes towards that. You often can't control the circumstances but you have control over your response to them.

Culture, like anything else revolving around a pro football team, definitely has an expiration date. If that weren’t true, how do you explain the differences in the culture of the 2008 to 2009 to 2010 Patriots? The 2020 Dolphins will be a completely different team than the 2019 Dolphins, and that was clearly their plan at the start of the season. As such, Flores will need to instill the culture of the team all over again. It’s like hiring in business where you orient and onboard new hires in part because you want to introduce them to and instill the organizations culture. The same rings true for NFL squads. All winning is accomplishing right now is possibly improving ticket sales going forward (the real reason behind playing Fitz now) while taking names off their draft board in April. In other words, they’re floundering in mediocrity at best. This type of thinking played a very big part in getting Miami to where they are today.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

It’s not just a blue chip prospect or a QB. The Dolphins have a TON of draft capital and a lot of needs. They’re in a very unique position that you’d have to think long and hard to find a recent comparison for. Winning now does them zero good and the argument for how it will bleed into next year is invalid if you truly believe that each year is its own story. All winning does it take prospects off their draft board because their own draft position takes a hit. In their position, it makes sense to just go full tank.

Draft capital is never what it appears to be. I like me a good "6 picks in the first 3 rounds" as much as the next guy, but the draft is best seen as an exercise in quantity. Quality plays its part around the edges in most cases, but people overemphasize the few storybook instances of one brilliant draft changing everything overnight (usually at the QB position.)

I have to add that they can't be in a very unique position. It's either one-of-a-kind or it's not. When I see "very unique," it's a tip that it's not unique at all. It really means "very rare position" or "approaching a unique position."

In this context that's shorthand for "they suck a lot," I get it. I see a lower upside than desperation would have fans believe. You see a lower downside (i.e., you are speculating that there's no year-over-year carry-through in culture.)

I know I don't buy that assertion; if "there is no carry-over in any dimension" then you're not talking culture, you're talking climate. It's as if we changed coach, owner, and quarterback, and expecting there to be no difference in culture, since we're talking about multiple years.

Clearly, we're not faced with that. (By the way, some teams face this in the span of 2 or 3 years.)

The 2018 team isn't the 2019 team. All new chemistry. No proven capabilities. Etc. But the very assertion that "The 2018 team isn't the 2019 team," from the same guys who said (or at least behaved as if) "The 2001 team isn't the 2000 team" eloquently disproves your hypothetical that culture does not carry over from 1 year to the next.

Indeed, it is a more reasonable position that culture is what carries over from one year to the next.

 

[PScottman]

To be fair I don't think culture should be seen as a seasonal thing. It is the most fundamental philosophy of your organisation and has no expiration date.

Interesting debate here. And of course because I'm wishy-washy I'll pick the middle ground - culture has both longevity and limited shelf-life. Longevity in habitual continuation of certain traits - say showing up early for practice whereas the saying "every team is different" is also 100% accurate in shaping the specific seasonal aspects of culture - saying "running team versus spread" centered around the specific abilities of the participants.

In other words some culture carries over from those who stay within it while other aspects change as the team members turn over.

 

[Kontradiction]

Draft capital is never what it appears to be. I like me a good "6 picks in the first 3 rounds" as much as the next guy, but the draft is best seen as an exercise in quantity. Quality plays its part around the edges in most cases, but people overemphasize the few storybook instances of one brilliant draft changing everything overnight (usually at the QB position.)

You defeated your own argument here.

I have to add that they can't be in a very unique position. It's either one-of-a-kind or it's not. When I see "very unique," it's a tip that it's not unique at all. It really means "very rare position" or "approaching a unique position."

In this context that's shorthand for "they suck a lot," I get it. I see a lower upside than desperation would have fans believe. You see a lower downside (i.e., you are speculating that there's no year-over-year carry-through in culture.)

I know I don't buy that assertion; if "there is no carry-over in any dimension" then you're not talking culture, you're talking climate. It's as if we changed coach, owner, and quarterback, and expecting there to be no difference in culture, since we're talking about multiple years.

Clearly, we're not faced with that. (By the way, some teams face this in the span of 2 or 3 years.)

The 2018 team isn't the 2019 team. All new chemistry. No proven capabilities. Etc. But the very assertion that "The 2018 team isn't the 2019 team," from the same guys who said (or at least behaved as if) "The 2001 team isn't the 2000 team" eloquently disproves your hypothetical that culture does not carry over from 1 year to the next.

Not sure if serious here. The examples you’ve given actually prove that culture doesn’t carry over from one year to the next and constantly has to be reinstalled year after year after year. I’ll turn the question to you, then. If you don’t think that’s the case, then how are you explaining the difference in New England’s culture from 2008 to 2009 to 2010?

Indeed, it is a more reasonable position that culture is what carries over from one year to the next.

Except it doesn’t because every year is different. This disproves the counter argument that winning now services the culture of the 2020 team. That can’t possibly be the case if you buy what BB is saying. So what utility is there in winning now? The time to do that was at the start of the year. Instead, they went full tank, the ticket sales followed suit, and in came Fitz.

 

[Ring 6]

Swing and a miss again. Tanking is fine for the Dolphins because they clearly planned to bottom out, accumulated the picks in doing so, then decided they wanted to win a couple of meaningless games at the halfway point. Maybe if I bold the next sentence, it will help you. The point about every year being a new story was in response to posters saying that winning now helps the culture with next season’s team. It had nothing to do with supporting tanking. It had nothing to do with BB supposedly supporting tanking. You’ve conjured these counterpoints up out of thin air then you took those conjured-up counterpoints, tried falsely to attribute them to me, and got absolutely hammered for it. Reading is fundamental, bud. Read the entire thread, follow the flow of the conversation, and then contribute. If you’re not sure what you’re reading, which you clearly weren’t, ask questions. I’ll be happy to clarify. But don’t cry about getting “insulted” when you jump into a conversation and peddle nothing but logical fallacies. You might want to Google what a logical fallacy is. It’ll help you.

Let me help you out and facilitate a conversation that is at least pertinent to the thread and to my prior posts. First, tell me what you think the Dolphins were doing at the outset of the year when they shed the players they shed for draft picks. Do you think they were doing that with an eye toward winning in 2019? Why or why not? Second, give me the pros and cons of the Dolphins winning at this point in the year. Thirdly, agree or disagree with this statement - every season is its own story. This blueprint will help get you on track.

I will just accept that you do not see the inconsistencies in your points (or choose to ignore them) and move on. Your condescending wall of words not only cracks me up, but successfully makes having a conversation impossible.
I confident in my opinion and you have done nothing to change it, and have shorn and unwillingness to gain insight, so any further discussion would be an exercise in futility.

 

[Ring 6]

To be fair I don't think culture should be seen as a seasonal thing. It is the most fundamental philosophy of your organisation and has no expiration date.

Flores showing that he will continue to put his team into a position to win no matter what he is given by his GM goes towards that. You often can't control the circumstances but you have control over your response to them.

Exactly
At least half the players will be there next year. Not to mention that the players are fighting to put play on film that will help them sustain a career.

 

[Kontradiction]

I will just accept that you do not see the inconsistencies in your points (or choose to ignore them) and move on. Your condescending wall of words not only cracks me up, but successfully makes having a conversation impossible.
I confident in my opinion and you have done nothing to change it, and have shorn and unwillingness to gain insight, so any further discussion would be an exercise in futility.

Always appreciate a good white flag waving via text on this message board. But okay. I’ll take the W. Smart move on your part letting others take this one.

 

[MainePatsFan26]

In reality, collapsing ticket sales (even worse than usual for them) most likely contributed to them putting Fitz in there. Another likelihood/reality is that winning a few games here and there while missing the playoffs has probably contributed heavily to putting Miami in this position, and the position they’ve been in since Marino retired.

Although it'd be funny if the fans -- since the Dolphins are/were tanking -- showed up to the game to root for the team to lose. Boo touchdowns by Fitz, cheer Rosen entering the game, etc.

 

[MainePatsFan26]

To be fair I don't think culture should be seen as a seasonal thing. It is the most fundamental philosophy of your organisation and has no expiration date.

Flores showing that he will continue to put his team into a position to win no matter what he is given by his GM goes towards that. You often can't control the circumstances but you have control over your response to them.

Flores is also taking advantage of the situation. If he goes 1-15 or 0-16, he looks incompetent while the GM gets a pass since "masterplan" and all. When Flores wins with a team of JAGs, suddenly he looks great even if it comes at the cost of the roster down the line. Considering Flores has limited experience and -- gasp -- is a black coach in a very white league (for coaches), it only makes sense to win now before someone out there decides he doesn't have the brains to be a head coach.

Without winning a few, what would draft order matter since Flores might get fired before he can capitalize on the roster talent made possible through those high picks?

All in all, I'm happy for Flores but it certainly seems him and the GM are not working in tandem. It's having different goals that makes a franchise like the Dolphins fail over and over. If you're playing to win, then make moves to win. If you're going to make moves to tank, then make sure you tank.

 

[Kontradiction]

Although it'd be funny if the fans -- since the Dolphins are/were tanking -- showed up to the game to root for the team to lose. Boo touchdowns by Fitz, cheer Rosen entering the game, etc.

Most of their fans are just hoping they lose enough to maximize their draft board, from what I understand. They’ve seen where winning just enough to achieve mediocrity (while missing the playoffs) have gotten them.

 

[Ring 6]

Always appreciate a good white flag waving via text on this message board. But okay. I’ll take the W. Smart move on your part letting others take this one.

Wow you really lack self awareness.
First there is no win or loss it’s a discussion.
Second, I am stopping because you have a closed mind, evidently because you think it’s about “the w” at the expense of intellectual honesty.
You are wrong. You just aren’t open minded enough to get it.
I have proven the flaw in your argument. You want to make it personal. Deflect away I have no interest in juvenile discussions.

 

[Kontradiction]

Wow you really lack self awareness.
First there is no win or loss it’s a discussion.
Second, I am stopping because you have a closed mind, evidently because you think it’s about “the w” at the expense of intellectual honesty.

This is rich considering you opened the thread by reading this...

Flores has already established his culture there by trimming the fat. Winning is useless at this point. That’s especially true if you really believe BB’s philosophy that every year is different and unique. Winning at this point isn’t putting you in the playoffs and each win only takes away names that would either be at or near the top of your draft board. In other words - this isn’t the time to win anymore. That would have been at the start of the season. They clearly committed to tanking, and they can’t even do that right anymore. It’ll be hilarious if they end up missing out on either of the top two prospects. But at least they’ll have a few completely meaningless wins to look back on in 2019 and appreciate as they’re preaching to treat the 2020 season as if 2019 didn’t happen and that it is a new year, new team, and with new challenges.

...and you actually got this out of it...

So if you think Belichick supports tanking why didn’t they pack it in at 2-8 in 2000 instead of winning 3 of their final 6?

If that’s not the very definition of intellectually dishonest, then I don’t know what is. At no point has that occurred on my end in in this thread. It has, however, occurred on your’s.

You are wrong.

Lmfaoooo. About what, exactly? At no point have you even remotely been able to demonstrate that you’ve followed the thread and have correctly grasped my point. What exactly do you think that I’m wrong about and how were you able to arrive at that conclusion when you literally have no clue what I’m talking about?

You just aren’t open minded enough to get it.
I have proven the flaw in your argument. You want to make it personal. Deflect away I have no interest in juvenile discussions.

I have no problem having a civilized debate with the vast majority of the board. I’m doing so with other posters in this thread. I’ve been doing it since long before you arrived on the scene and brought down the median IQ of the forum by several percentage points. What I have no patience for is someone either tossing out a logical fallacy to open a debate or being so dull that they didn’t comprehend what they were reading. Nobody should have any patience for that. That’s something an idiot would do, and you opened the thread doing one of those two. As a result, I’ve made attempts to correct you as a new poster who isn’t having the best starting experience here. You can either take my advice and have a better experience on here, or you could do... whatever the Hell it is that you’re doing and people will just assume that you’re a low IQ guy and treat you as such. Your choice. I’m just trying to help.

 

[luuked]

What I see in this thread is that you have a bunch of posters who still have no idea what culture is and how it is the absolute key to building sustainable success. It is not cap space, draft picks or anything else that breeds success. It is culture.

The same way that nobody should put too much thought into results when evaluating performance but only the process and its execution. The results will come from the quality of execution.

You can't have a culture of excellence if you are not willing to approach each decision, every single practice snap and game with a commitment to greatness and winning attitude. And this goes for every member of the organisation from the secretaries to the PA announcers (who Bill Walsh famously fired because he was not up to his standard of performance).

It should not matter at all if Flores goes 0-16 or 5-11 as long as the quality of his work shines through and his decision making is sound. Eventually the results will come as a consequence of execution. Just look at the Bills and what they did with their highest first round pick being a #7 (Josh Allen).

 

[Ring 6]

This is rich considering you opened the thread by reading this...



...and you actually got this out of it...



If that’s not the very definition of intellectually dishonest, then I don’t know what is. At no point has that occurred on my end in in this thread. It has, however, occurred on your’s.



Lmfaoooo. About what, exactly? At no point have you even remotely been able to demonstrate that you’ve followed the thread and have correctly grasped my point. What exactly do you think that I’m wrong about and how were you able to arrive at that conclusion when you literally have no clue what I’m talking about?



I have no problem having a civilized debate with the vast majority of the board. I’m doing so with other posters in this thread. I’ve been doing it since long before you arrived on the scene and brought down the median IQ of the forum by several percentage points. What I have no patience for is someone either tossing out a logical fallacy to open a debate or being so dull that they didn’t comprehend what they were reading. Nobody should have any patience for that. That’s something an idiot would do, and you opened the thread doing one of those two. As a result, I’ve made attempts to correct you as a new poster who isn’t having the best starting experience here. You can either take my advice and have a better experience on here, or you could do... whatever the Hell it is that you’re doing and people will just assume that you’re a low IQ guy and treat you as such. Your choice. I’m just trying to help.

Insults are the resort of a weak argument and mind. Thanks for playing. I’ll move on to a conversation with someone who doesn’t lack self awareness and doesn’t fall back to condescension and insults to replace the weakness.

 

[Kontradiction]

Insults are the resort of a weak argument and mind. Thanks for playing. I’ll move on to a conversation with someone who doesn’t lack self awareness and doesn’t fall back to condescension and insults to replace the weakness.

You don’t really deserve much more than that, to be honest. I corrected you the first response and you got embarrassed and decided to dig your heels in. I told you there was nothing but frustration down this road. Here’s another piece of advice, since you’re new and all. Don’t make a loud proclamation that you’re “done” with a conversation, then jump back into it. It makes you look weak willed and unsure of yourself. Like a dog licking its wounds. If you proclaim to be done, be done. Otherwise, people will think you’re on the spectrum.

 

[Clonamery]

Flores is also taking advantage of the situation. If he goes 1-15 or 0-16, he looks incompetent while the GM gets a pass since "masterplan" and all. When Flores wins with a team of JAGs, suddenly he looks great even if it comes at the cost of the roster down the line. Considering Flores has limited experience and -- gasp -- is a black coach in a very white league (for coaches), it only makes sense to win now before someone out there decides he doesn't have the brains to be a head coach.

I’m not sure why you inserted race into this as an impediment to the longevity of being a HC in the NFL? Got any data?