Scary Good Defense

[patfanken]

Let me phrase this question to you, Ken, very carefully:

Given the personnel on this D is more deep than top-heavy/pro-Bowl, (also has more “coaches on the field” than I have seen in a long time) how does your view change when the ingredient adds in that BB has no DC working with them but BB himself. The note by Reiss yesterday in his Sunday notes to the effect that “Throwback Bill” BB seems more animated about the D than during his Giants days made my hair stand on end.

Yeah, Shmess, very excited about what we will see this season. Bill does seem more animated this season. Hey he gets to work directly with HIS son and his son from another mother (Mayo) and really accelerate their careers as NFL coaches.

You can see in every TC, the thing that drives Bill Bellichick is that he still LOVES to coach, and I think he has more fun in TC than during the rest of the year. He is always in the thick of it, always working with different groups, and not just making demands, but actual coaching up. Bill will never be "the oversee-er".

Another thing that excites me this season is the prospect of watching Bill develop the next generation defensive blueprint for defending against these high powered offenses and the ridiculous set of rules that abet them. We could see a number of different concepts that go beyond mere alignment changes. To use a basketball term, "positionless defense" (you heard it here first ) might be the next big craze, as the "amoeba defense" we saw a bit in the superbowl becomes more of a mainstay than an anomaly. Smarts, versatility and flexibility will start to beat pure talent as offenses quail in fear when they can't plan who what they will see and where "its" coming from.

Have I mentioned, "YES, I am excited about our defensive prospects this season!!!!!"
It's just that the reason for my excitement is different from some others.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Andy hasn't (and apparently never will) grasp that a formation is more about where you line up than what you position title is. Not only is this true in American football, it is much more evident in what the rest of the world calls football where moving an midfielder up into an attacking position or back into a defensive position changes the description of the formation.

 

[Ring 6]

Andy hasn't (and apparently never will) grasp that a formation is more about where you line up than what you position title is. Not only is this true in American football, it is much more evident in what the rest of the world calls football where moving an midfielder up into an attacking position or back into a defensive position changes the description of the formation.

Andy hadn’t grasped that because it’s not true.
Actually it’s about your assignment.

Nothing could be more misleading to call Patrick Chung a DL as he drops into his zone coverage.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Oh man I missed another Andy vs 10 people thread ? Let me grab my popcorn these discussions make my day


.

 

[Snooky97]

Hightower is huge for this team, as long as we can keep him healthy throughout the season I’m happy. Especially when it comes to play offs the guy is a different animal then.

Sounds like he’s had a really good training camp as well which bodes well!

 

[mgteich]

Calhoun has been a fine special teamer in his career. Last year, we had Grisby, McClellan and Humber as from seven special teamers. We need at least one additional special teamer.

Calhoun and Rivers have shown nothing in regular season action. They’ve both been busts thus far in their career.

Kind of ridiculous to say they’ve shown more than Wise or say they “are” better than him at anything.

Preseason means very little when projecting regular season performance

 

[mgteich]

no

.
e.) How about our LB corps during BB's tenure? Do these guys rival the old days with McGinest/Bruschi/Vrabel/Johnson? Or the Mayo/A.Thomas/Bruschi/Vrabel era of 2007-2009?

 

[Clonamery]

Andy hadn’t grasped that because it’s not true.
Actually it’s about your assignment.

Nothing could be more misleading to call Patrick Chung a DL as he drops into his zone coverage.

So a lineman never drops into zone coverage?

 

[Ring 6]

So a lineman never drops into zone coverage?

Yes a lineman can drop into coverage.
If you think there is no difference between a 300lb DL dropping into coverage 1% of the time and a 200 lb safety playing near the los I’m not sure what to say.

 

[Clonamery]

Yes a lineman can drop into coverage.
If you think there is no difference between a 300lb DL dropping into coverage 1% of the time and a 200 lb safety playing near the los I’m not sure what to say.

Don't assume that's what I meant.

 

[PP2]

Look at the F*cking picture. you... (so close to adding several adjectives to that sentence that I would regret later, and have to abjectly apologize for.)

You do NOT have to have 6 DLmen on the field for it to be a 6-1. GOD! you are impossible to have a reasonable discussion with. I give up. Please don't respond, or expect a response if you still want to call what is CLEARLY standing in front of you.

BTW- This from our knowledgeable friends at Pats Pulpit in the Superbowl analysis. It was the first of SEVERAL listings when I googled "Patriots using a 6-1 in the Superbowl"

1. Patriots Fronts vs Rams Run game
The Patriots employed a 6-1 even front, with 4 down linemen, two outside linebackers, and one middle linebacker on almost every first and second down play. The defensive linemen group varied, but Van Noy and Chung played as the OLBs and Hightower played as the MLB on every snap, until Chung went down. Then, Hightower took his place, and Elandon Roberts stepped in as the Middle Linebacker.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

The question is when will BB the GM pee in our Cheerios and cut one of our core defensive players and who will that be? He could cut two defensive players and double the amount of cap space. Cutting...

DMac represents a $9.5M savings;
HT represents a $6.45M savings; and
KVN represents a $5.1M savings.

I'd expect HT to stay on his current deal, as he's both versatile and a special player. His injury history might actually be a bigger risk on a long-term deal than the last year of his current deal. Dmac and KVN are BB-type guys who are able to fill multiple roles, so they could be extended to reduce the hit and keep them around.

Other guys who represent substantial cap savings if cut include:

Bennet $4.5M,
Harmon $3.5M,
Guy $3.1M,
Jones $3.1M,
Collins $2.75M,
Ebner $2.2M,
Roberts, $2.0M,
Pennel $1.9M, and
King $1.2M.

(Numbers are from overthecap and are rounded to the nearest $100K. I believe that any savings listed are offset by the guy who replaces him, who typically cost around $650K against the cap at the back end of the roster.)

I'm not suggesting that any of these guys specifically will get cut, and some I view (quite possibly incorrectly) as locks, but it would be a change if all BB did was cut the bottom 3 or 4 guys on this list. They do have $15M in cap space, which is actually pretty good, but now that it can carry over from year-to-year, savings can prove useful for retaining talent or attracting FA next year.

 

[Ring 6]

Don't assume that's what I meant.

Then explain what you mean

 

[Clonamery]

Then explain what you mean

There's no point. You won't agree no matter the evidence I present.

 

[Ring 6]

There's no point. You won't agree no matter the evidence I present.

Of course i will if you present good evidence.
An opinion that a safety playing up on the line when he has a short zone responsibility should be considered a DL wouldn’t be “evidence”.

 

[Clonamery]

Of course i will if you present good evidence.
An opinion that a safety playing up on the line when he has a short zone responsibility should be considered a DL wouldn’t be “evidence”.

Didn't say that. If anything I intimated that a DL can play zone given the scheme or individual play call.

 

[Ring 6]

Didn't say that. If anything I intimated that a DL can play zone given the scheme or individual play call.

He can. I fail to understand the point.
Some teams will on rare occasion have a DL drop into coverage to confuse an offense. He is still a DL.

 

[Chevy]

Agree. I think our DL will keep us from being a great defense. But, they are very good. They will be good enough to give the team a very good shot at another Lombardi.

I'm not too sure of that. True, the individual talent is less than some. But, taking the depth and ability to rotate and flexibility among the players, our lineman should be a lot fresher late in the game. By not wearing down as quickly, they should be able to accomplish more.

 

[Clonamery]

He can. I fail to understand the point.
Some teams will on rare occasion have a DL drop into coverage to confuse an offense. He is still a DL.

I didn't say he wasn't. I thought it seemed odd when you said:

Nothing could be more misleading to call Patrick Chung a DL as he drops into his zone coverage.

A player's position (i.e., DL) seems rigid while responsibility and alignment can be quite flexible.

 

[mgteich]

You mention cap SAVINGS. I don't see any of your suggested cuts as cap savings, except for Ebner. It would likely cost at least as much to replace any of the other players with a player with expected equal or better production.

I don't think that ANY of the cuts would help the 2019 team. In fact, I would see every one of them as hurting the team.

Cuts COULD help future teams, if the money was used for extensions.

The question is when will BB the GM pee in our Cheerios and cut one of our core defensive players and who will that be? He could cut two defensive players and double the amount of cap space. Cutting...

DMac represents a $9.5M savings;
HT represents a $6.45M savings; and
KVN represents a $5.1M savings.

I'd expect HT to stay on his current deal, as he's both versatile and a special player. His injury history might actually be a bigger risk on a long-term deal than the last year of his current deal. Dmac and KVN are BB-type guys who are able to fill multiple roles, so they could be extended to reduce the hit and keep them around.

Other guys who represent substantial cap savings if cut include:

Bennet $4.5M,
Harmon $3.5M,
Guy $3.1M,
Jones $3.1M,
Collins $2.75M,
Ebner $2.2M,
Roberts, $2.0M,
Pennel $1.9M, and
King $1.2M.

(Numbers are from overthecap and are rounded to the nearest $100K. I believe that any savings listed are offset by the guy who replaces him, who typically cost around $650K against the cap at the back end of the roster.)

I'm not suggesting that any of these guys specifically will get cut, and some I view (quite possibly incorrectly) as locks, but it would be a change if all BB did was cut the bottom 3 or 4 guys on this list. They do have $15M in cap space, which is actually pretty good, but now that it can carry over from year-to-year, savings can prove useful for retaining talent or attracting FA next year.