Day 8 Patriots Training Camp

[Ring 6]

Just to be clear, the disagreement is not over Tuna in the NEP HoF but rather his role and positive impact on the organization.

To say his tenure here is on the same level at Pete Carroll's 3 years is where you and I have a massive disagreement.

I am saying their tenures were similar on the field.
I am saying in the context of judging them as coaches or discussing qualifications for HOF the players acquired while you were coach are not a criteria that has any influence on me.

 

[Ring 6]

Drafting Terry Glenn was the straw that broke the camel's back and started Parcells
on his quest to leave the Patriots. The Patriots did a similar thing years before when
Chuck Sullivan vetoed contracts negotiated by GM Chuck Fairbanks for Hannah and
Gray that caused Fairbanks to start looking elsewhere.

Ironically had they agreed with tuna and not drafted Glenn they wouldn’t have gotten to the SB that Tuna tanked.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I am saying their tenures were similar on the field.
I am saying in the context of judging them as coaches or discussing qualifications for HOF the players acquired while you were coach are not a criteria that has any influence on me.

On both of those points that is where we have a canyon-sized disagreement.

Moving on.

 

[jimnance]

Tuna did some things that I certainly don't appreciate. My loyalty is to the NEP but as I said in another post last night I have a love/hate relationship with Tuna.

I think a lot of us are in that boat. Love/hate.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Just to be clear, the disagreement is not over Tuna in the NEP HoF but rather his role and positive impact on the organization.

To say his tenure here is on the same level at Pete Carroll's 3 years is where you and I have a massive disagreement.

Agree completely. He does not belong in the Patriots HOF but did some great things. The feud with Kraft and him trying to undermine NE after he left does not diminish how he brought NE to respectability. What I don't understand is people saying he doesn't deserve ANY credit. Nonsense.

 

[Ring 6]

Agree completely. He does not belong in the Patriots HOF but did some great things. The feud with Kraft and him trying to undermine NE after he left does not diminish how he brought NE to respectability. What I don't understand is people saying he doesn't deserve ANY credit. Nonsense.

Credit for the dynasty? No he doesn’t. Credit for the job he did? Sure but not at the level of HOF.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Credit for the dynasty? No he doesn’t. Credit for the job he did? Sure but not at the level of HOF.

He deserves SOME credit for the dynasty (even if it's small). To say he doesn't deserve any credit makes you look bitter. And the reason he doesn't belong in the Patriots HOF is because of what he did to the team after he left (and perhaps in SB 31 when he was half way out the door). If he had left quietly, I would say he serves Patriots HOF status.

 

[Doctor DDS]

I am a no on Parcells. I give him credit for reestablishing normalcy and building a solid foundation. Was just not here long enough for me. Making the Super Bowl was great (with some good fortune with the Broncos being upset) but the way we lost and his nonsense at the end is too much for me. If BB did not create the future dynasty there would be no way that BP would even be mentioned. Happy Pats got him and I liked what he did but he falls short in my eyes.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Watching Tuna coach training camp was fun. I remember a practice at Smithfield where he was busy with a position group. Two other players standing about 30 yards away were chatting and Tuna turned around and yelled, "You guys shut the hell up over there!" He had 'em all under his thumb. BB is just the same.

Tuner rode Ty Law unmercifully Ty's first camp. It was clear to all that Ty was gonna be Da Man.
At Smithfield I remember once that Parcells chewed Chris Slade's ass because he ever so lightly touched red shirt QB Bledsoe on a pass rush. Slade who was simply trying to do his pass rush job, shaking his head whined like a 5 year old, "What am I gonna do coach?" You could stand right at the sideline stripe and hear everything.
And Charlie Weiss at Smithfield. His chew outs (Patrick Pass I'm thinking of you here) were epic poetry along the lines of "Swingen" in Deadwood.
Good times. Good times!
But these, these are the Best of Times!*

* Great football movie

 

[Ring 6]

He deserves SOME credit for the dynasty (even if it's small). To say he doesn't deserve any credit makes you look bitter. And the reason he doesn't belong in the Patriots HOF is because of what he did to the team after he left (and perhaps in SB 31 when he was half way out the door). If he had left quietly, I would say he serves Patriots HOF status.

Let me restate. Every coach and executive that comes before a dynasty has something to do with the dynasty. But a coach who left 5 years before the dynasty started doesn’t deserve special mention unless you are reaching.
Does Bobby Grier deserve credit? Yes. Does Pete Carroll? Yes. Parcells doesn’t deserve significantly more or less than either of those.

On his actual coaching record with the team I don’t think he deserves to be in.

If Belichicks successor goes .500 in 4 seasons, makes the playoffs twice, a one and done and a Sb loss with 2 bad losing seasons I wouldn’t call him a failure but I wouldn’t put any consideration to the hof.

 

[Deus Irae]

Sure, how about Chuck Fairbanks?

None of them belong.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Let me restate. Every coach and executive that comes before a dynasty has something to do with the dynasty. But a coach who left 5 years before the dynasty started doesn’t deserve special mention unless you are reaching.
Does Bobby Grier deserve credit? Yes. Does Pete Carroll? Yes. Parcells doesn’t deserve significantly more or less than either of those.

On his actual coaching record with the team I don’t think he deserves to be in.

If Belichicks successor goes .500 in 4 seasons, makes the playoffs twice, a one and done and a Sb loss with 2 bad losing seasons I wouldn’t call him a failure but I wouldn’t put any consideration to the hof.

Put it this way, if you want to assign credit for the 2001-2004 dynasty, here's where I would go: 33% belongs to the players, 33% belongs to coaching, and 33% belongs to roster management.

Parcells only gets a piece of the last category. He brought in Law, Malloy, Brown, Vinatieri, McGinest, Ted Johnson, Bledsoe (won the AFCCG in 2001), and Bruschi. These players were incredibly important to 2001, 2003, and 2004. I would give Parcells 40% credit for roster management. In other words, he gets 15% or so credit for the early dynasty overall, but only for the players he brought in.

Again, I agree he does not belong in the Patriots HOF. But part of NFL coaching is roster management, which he excelled at while he was here.

 

[Ring 6]

Put it this way, if you want to assign credit for the 2001-2004 dynasty, here's where I would go: 33% belongs to the players, 33% belongs to coaching, and 33% belongs to roster management.

Parcells only gets a piece of the last category. He brought in Law, Malloy, Brown, Vinatieri, McGinest, Ted Johnson, Bledsoe (won the AFCCG in 2001), and Bruschi. These players were incredibly important to 2001, 2003, and 2004. I would give Parcells 40% credit for roster management. In other words, he gets 15% or so credit for the early dynasty overall, but only for the players he brought in.

Again, I agree he does not belong in the Patriots HOF. But part of NFL coaching is roster management, which he excelled at while he was here.

Ok we disagree. 40% credit for building he roster when 4 years later the team was decimated and Belichick had to rebuild one of the worst rosters in the league?
Why doesn’t Bobby Grier get that credit since he did the drafting?

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Ok we disagree. 40% credit for building he roster when 4 years later the team was decimated and Belichick had to rebuild one of the worst rosters in the league?
Why doesn’t Bobby Grier get that credit since he did the drafting?

Bobby Grier's drafts after Parcells left were abysmal. I'll give him credit for Damien Woody and Kevin Faulk. That's how I know Grier didn't do the drafting when Parcells was around. The team underperformed when Carroll was the HC. The talent was there but the results were awful because of the coaching.

 

[Ring 6]

Bobby Grier's drafts after Parcells left were abysmal. I'll give him credit for Damien Woody and Kevin Faulk. That's how I know Grier didn't do the drafting when Parcells was around. The team underperformed when Carroll was the HC. The talent was there but the results were awful because of the coaching.

Parcells left because he wasn’t allowed to make the draft picks. That’s a fact.
The team was 27-21 under Carroll and 32-32 under Parcells. Also a fact.
I think we have we different versions of judgment so rather than go back and forth I’ll agree to disagree.

 

[jah]

I wish we could talk about training camp instead of Bill Parcells.

 

[condon84]

No he didn’t. Yes some guys who were drafted when Parcells were here were part of the team that won, but not that many and any failed coach leaves behind good players they brought in too. Is Jeff fisher responsible for the rams going to last years SB?

You're still an idiot.

I posted 'he also drafted the foundation of the team that got us our first 3 SBs.'

Nowhere did i say he was responsible for our SBs like your dumb analogy with Fischer.

He drafted 'some guys' (lmao). Yeah like Ty Law, McGinest, Bruschi, Vinatierre, Milloy, Troy Brown.

 

[Ring 6]

You're still an idiot.

Evidence you have no argument

I posted 'he also drafted the foundation of the team that got us our first 3 SBs.'

Nowhere did i say he was responsible for our SBs like your dumb analogy with Fischer.

He drafted 'some guys' (lmao). Yeah like Ty Law, McGinest, Bruschi, Vinatierre, Milloy, Troy Brown.

So Bobby Grier gets the credit?

Of course players showed up while he was there. A handful of guys on every championship team were brought in under a former coach. This one no more than others.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Of course players showed up while he was there. A handful of guys on every championship team were brought in under a former coach. This one no more than others.

Andy, what you are missing is that for the most part these top players Parcells brought in were NOT well-known in their draft class. It required good scouting and someone with the foresight to select them. Troy Brown, Bruschi, Curtis Martin, Ty Law, Malloy, etc. were not heralded. He picked a HOFer in Ty Law 23rd overall and another HOFer in the 3rd round in Curtis Martin. How often do you pick two HOFers in the same draft? If you were to redo the 1995 draft, both Law and Martin would be top 3 selections (perhaps behind Warren Sapp). And Adam Vinatieri will be in the HOF someday.

 

[Ring 6]

Andy, what you are missing is that for the most part these top players Parcells brought in were NOT well-known in their draft class. It required good scouting and someone with the foresight to select them. Troy Brown, Bruschi, Curtis Martin, Ty Law, Malloy, etc. were not heralded. He picked a HOFer in Ty Law 23rd overall and another HOFer in the 3rd round in Curtis Martin. How often do you pick two HOFers in the same draft? If you were to redo the 1995 draft, both Law and Martin would be top 3 selections (perhaps behind Warren Sapp). And Adam Vinatieri will be in the HOF someday.

Curtis Martin has nothing to do with championships.
Milloy and bruschi were in the draft that Parcells quit over because he didn’t get to pick the players.
Brown was a late pick he didn’t use and made inactive for the Sb.
You are reaching to give him credit.
Parcells didn’t do the scouting either.
Sounds like you are pimping Bobby Grier.