2018 Defense vs 2019 Defense

[Ring 6]

A few comments.

The strength of this team is BY FAR the depth and talent of the secondary. But we know that really good defenses are built from the inside out. And right now there are a LOT of questions that need to be answered about the "inside" of that equation.

Lawrence Guy is NOT one of them. When all is said and done, Guy might rank among the top ten FA picks ups of BB's career. All his measurables were bordering on the elite, and his effectiveness within this defensive system when he was on the field was never in question. He is the perfect example of a "no-name" player who allows the defense, as a whole, be better.

Guy is a high effort player that I have no problem with but he’s the kind of guy you always want to improve upon.
He is not stout enough to be a run stuffing DT and gets pushed around at times but fights and holds his own.
He’s not quick or agile enough to be a pass rushing force but makes some plays. He is ok at every thing and smart but doesn’t excel at anything. Reminds me of mike wright.

It's the rest of the DL that has me worried. If I was sure we were getting the Michael Bennett we saw terrorizing the Pats OL in 2016, I'd have no worries. If I could get 90% of that, I'd feel great. But the man is now 34 and his YOUNGER brother is retired from the league. Also I take a lesson from Chris Long's experience. Long left because this was a defense that didn't match his skill set, and I see Bennett's skill set to be more like Long's than Flowers. MAYBE this will be a match made in heaven, but the question remains.

I see Bennett as a very close match to flowers in terms of usage and skillset. Long wasn’t really a good fit for the role we played him in and left because he wanted to be a dedicated pass rusher. Bennett is a much more complete player.

Pennell? I know very little about him, and would like to know more, but to think he'll be a seamless fit from Brown, or an upgrade is ONLY a possibility. Another big question there.

It’s a limited role. And the basic requirements are exactly his strengths.

Rivers, Wise, Winovich, Simon or whomever are ALL big question marks coming off the edge. To think any or all are upgrades is a ludicrous thought at this point in time. Any and all COULD be upgrades, but that's an unknown now.

Upgrade to what? The only guy we lost that they would replace could barely get in the field as the season wore on.

You DO have to like the LB's we currently have. Van Noy has been the Christmas present under the tree that no one expected. He has been dependable, as well as impactful. Roberts has shown improvement in a limited role, Bentley showed great promise, and Simon was a fantastic midseason pick up relatively. And of course Hightower's smarts and position flexibility is what pulls this group together.

Love the lbs.

HOWEVER, you have to wonder about the very nature of the LB position and how important this group actually impacts the overall defense, as more and more teams need DB's to avoid the awful mismatches offenses can create vs LB's. I like that we will have a strong group, but just how important IS having a strong LB group is now days.

I think it’s CRITICAL. More important than ever. You can’t play nickel base if your lbs aren’t studs. You can’t take away threats 1,2,3 in the passing game if your lbs can’t be part of covering 4 and 5. Everything a defense really wants to do that’s days leaves lbs exposed.

Finally, some of these questions might be answered by guys who aren't even on the roster yet. I'd feel better about the inside rush if a guy like Solomon Thomas could be gotten in a trade, or better yet, Gerald McCoy. Ziggy Ansah would be an upgrade Edge rusher IF there is cap space (down to around $13MM currently)

So in the end, the potential EXISTS that this defense will be a good one....by the end of the season, when it counts the most. But a LOT of questions remain. Questions that will likely only be answered after Halloween.

More than most any other season we will have very little turnover on defense and should hit the ground running. Swapping out a couple of DL isn’t a big deal.
Many of your concerns were there when this defense answers them by dominating the playoffs. Replacing brown with Pennell and flowers with Bennett doesn’t open up a slew of questions that can’t be answered until
Halloween. Most were answered already last year.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[Uptown]

As always it’ll come down to injuries but no matter what they need a nose in the mold of Washington, Traylor or Wilfork. Brown was not that guy, not sure Pennell will be either.

I know we’ve yet to see Pennel on the field (in NE), but I wouldn’t underestimate him. He’s been one of the best run stoppers in league for a couple seasons now. Plus, he has that nasty demeanor. I love that; especially in a NT/DT.

 

[mgteich]

Why no love for Obi?

Well, first, we have 6 corners making the team: Gilmore, Jackson, Williams, McCourty, Jones and Dawson. If Obi was in the mix, perhaps we wouldn't have drafted a corner. Also, I think that the team plans on giving Dawson an opportunity to win the 6th CB spot, if there is one.

Secondly, Belichick signed Brooks, and guaranteed him $1.3M. Brooks is a top Ster with experience at safety. Sure, Obi could beat out Brooks, but this seems unlikely. Even if Brooks isn't staying, the team would simply go with ONLY 10 defensive backs, and have Dawson or Jason McCourty be the #4 safety if needed.

BOTTOM LINE
If Brooks is terrible, perhaps Obi can make the 53.

I'm wondering why so little love for Obi. His combination of size, speed, quickness, and smarts is kind of unrivaled. He experience in Oakland was rife with injuries, position uncertainty, and coaching instability.

His short and inconsequential time he had with us last season gives him a leg up in his development. He might have been the major reason the Pats didn't draft a S this year.

Now it MIGHT not happen for him in NE, but at THIS particular point there isn't a good reason why we shouldn't be just as excited about what Melifonwu can bring to the team as we are by any of the other new comers who are about to join us.

 

[supafly]

One aspect not discussed much is the outcome of Deatrich Wise & Adam Butler. They’ve spent their first two years as productive role players. IMO Butler is one of the more underrated players on the team & was key to the sub package pass rush in the playoffs. Wise has been more inconsistent but decided to show up in the superbowl.

If one of those players can take a step forward in their third years then you are looking at the best secondary in football paired with a pretty good front seven. I’m confident Winovich can be a better overall player than Clayborn & whatever Bentley can provide will be a bonus. Hopefully Bennett can do a good amount of what Flowers did.

Just not seeing it with Wise. I want to believe, though.

 

[luuked]

Also I take a lesson from Chris Long's experience. Long left because this was a defense that didn't match his skill set, and I see Bennett's skill set to be more like Long's than Flowers.

I was with you when you were taking the age angle with Bennett. But his skillset is the prototype BB was looking for when he drafted Flowers. Long is closer to Clayborn than to Bennett.

HOWEVER, you have to wonder about the very nature of the LB position and how important this group actually impacts the overall defense, as more and more teams need DB's to avoid the awful mismatches offenses can create vs LB's. I like that we will have a strong group, but just how important IS having a strong LB group is now days.

You are overstating the importance of LBs and the mismatches they provide. If no one was able to consistently exploit the lack of smaller bodies last year then why should this year suddenly be dramatically different. Also looking at individual snap counts you almost have to add DMac and Chung to that group on a part-time basis because when personnel and opponents require they come down towards the box to minimize potential mismatches.

So in the end, the potential EXISTS that this defense will be a good one....by the end of the season, when it counts the most. But a LOT of questions remain. Questions that will likely only be answered after Halloween.

True. But that is often independent of talent as each new season also requires the coaching staff to get a handle on the respective identities of each unit and their strengths and weaknesses. But you are definitely right that we will not know before Halloween (and maybe even later) anything definitive. Even if we hit the ground running and go undefeated into the midseason schedule gauntlet.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Id still like to see another piece at DE and DT but as of right now the 2019 D is looking good.

 

[mgteich]

Id still like to see another piece at DE and DT but as of right now the 2019 D is looking good.

While I agree, I suspect that we will add only one DL, with Davis and Coward fighting it out for the 9th DL spot. Obviously, at any given point, we could have as many as 2 more or 2 fewer defensive players.

I suspect that we will carry
9 DL
4 LB
6 CB
3 S
3 ST Ebner, King, Brooks(or Obi)

 

[RobertWeathers]

While I agree, I suspect that we will add only one DL, with Davis and Coward fighting it out for the 9th DL spot. Obviously, at any given point, we could have as many as 2 more or 2 fewer defensive players.

I suspect that we will carry
9 DL
4 LB
6 CB
3 S
3 ST Ebner, King, Brooks(or Obi)

I have no freaking idea what they will do in the secondary. With all the "hybrid" discussion it has really thrown me a loop as to who they will keep. Need to think through more.

 

[mgteich]

I have no freaking idea what they will do in the secondary. With all the "hybrid" discussion it has really thrown me a loop as to who they will keep. Need to think through more.

I guess that I don't about the labels as much as who are the best players. Also, we will keep our early draft choice. Should we keep more than 11?

My list includes

TOP RETURNING DEFENSIVE BACKS (7)
Gilmore
Devin McCourty
Chung
Harmon
Jason McCourty
Jackson
Jones

TOP ROOKIE (1)
Williams

SPECIAL TEAMERS (2)
And I expect us to keep special teamers Ebner and Brooks (or Obi or Crossen)

DEVELOPMENTAL
Dawson

 

[goheels22002]

Why wouldn’t they be able to potentially be the best defense in the nfl?

Last year 7
17-18. 6
16-18. 1
15-18. 1
14-18. 1

I'm concerned about the coaching, actually. The transition from Matt Patricia to Brian Flores was seamless, as it turns out. Right now we have some combination of Jerod Mayo and Steve Belichick (who is only defensive coach listed on the web site on May 1st). I get that it will always be a BB defense, but time and attention are needed at all three levels to develop players and improve as the season progresses. Coaching really matters in the NFL and I have more questions about the coaching on defense than concerns about player quality and depth.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I guess that I don't about the labels as much as who are the best players. Also, we will keep our early draft choice. Should we keep more than 11?

My list includes

TOP RETURNING DEFENSIVE BACKS (7)
Gilmore
Devin McCourty
Chung
Harmon
Jason McCourty
Jackson
Jones

TOP ROOKIE (1)
Williams

SPECIAL TEAMERS (2)
And I expect us to keep special teamers Ebner and Brooks (or Obi or Crossen)

DEVELOPMENTAL
Dawson

I think that's as good of a list as any. I think they say King is a LB but he might be on the chopping block.

I wonder if Ebner might be in a fight for his job...if Obi shines.

Crossen's speed is great asset but he also might be in a spot

 

[PatsBoy12]

All we have at this point is a list of names.

 

[jah]

Chase Winovich Film Review: What To Expect From Patriots Rookie Pass Rusher

After reading this, I feel more confident that Winovich can at least give us something similar to what Clayborn gave us. According to this article, Winovich's weaknesses are that he can overpursue the QB and have trouble setting the edge. That sure does sound familiar...

The 30 lb difference might loom large.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm concerned about the coaching, actually. The transition from Matt Patricia to Brian Flores was seamless, as it turns out. Right now we have some combination of Jerod Mayo and Steve Belichick (who is only defensive coach listed on the web site on May 1st). I get that it will always be a BB defense, but time and attention are needed at all three levels to develop players and improve as the season progresses. Coaching really matters in the NFL and I have more questions about the coaching on defense than concerns about player quality and depth.

Why was it seamless is the question I guess.

And yes coaching has an awful lot to do with the tremendous long term success we have had on defense so turnover is definitely a red flag.

 

[SBLIII]

Chase Winovich Film Review: What To Expect From Patriots Rookie Pass Rusher

After reading this, I feel more confident that Winovich can at least give us something similar to what Clayborn gave us. According to this article, Winovich's weaknesses are that he can overpursue the QB and have trouble setting the edge. That sure does sound familiar...

The 30 lb difference might loom large.

Winovich will be our starting DE by game 4.

 

[goheels22002]

Why was it seamless is the question I guess.

And yes coaching has an awful lot to do with the tremendous long term success we have had on defense so turnover is definitely a red flag.

Why was it seamless? I guess that we saw the same sort of progression we saw during the Matt Patricia years during 2018 with Flores at the helm. The defense gave us all heartburn early and couldn't stop anyone (remember the Lions game?), and then as the season wore on they started shutting everyone down until the ran into the Chiefs in KC in the AFCC. Fortunately, Brady and company took care of their business in that one. Then they turned in a masterpiece against the Rams.

What we saw was a defense that continued to improve at taking away the opponent's strength, extraordinary communication in the secondary to prevent the big play, and a front seven that morphed from week to week depending on the opponent's tendencies. Flores got a HC job out of that development.

My concern is about how that can happen this year without some veteran coaching on the defensive side of the ball. Maybe Steve Belichick is ready. But it seems like a lot to ask one guy to be the entire defensive coaching staff. I know the HC is a defensive genius, but this ain't Pop Warner.

 

[Ring 6]

Why was it seamless? I guess that we saw the same sort of progression we saw during the Matt Patricia years during 2018 with Flores at the helm. The defense gave us all heartburn early and couldn't stop anyone (remember the Lions game?), and then as the season wore on they started shutting everyone down until the ran into the Chiefs in KC in the AFCC. Fortunately, Brady and company took care of their business in that one. Then they turned in a masterpiece against the Rams.

I mean was it seamless because of Patricia/Flores or because of Belichick.

The defense has progressed through the season almost every year bb has been here.

What we saw was a defense that continued to improve at taking away the opponent's strength, extraordinary communication in the secondary to prevent the big play, and a front seven that morphed from week to week depending on the opponent's tendencies. Flores got a HC job out of that development.

Again, we’ve seen that many times under bb.

My concern is about how that can happen this year without some veteran coaching on the defensive side of the ball. Maybe Steve Belichick is ready. But it seems like a lot to ask one guy to be the entire defensive coaching staff. I know the HC is a defensive genius, but this ain't Pop Warner.

We are plugging like minded coaches into the same system. I don’t suddenly expect us to be stupid about defense.
To me it’s more about structuring responsibilities. Bryan Flores coordinated the way Belichick taught and directed him and the position coaches are teaching the techniques that bb wants taught the way he wants them taught.
It’s not like we hire coaches and have them run on their own. It’s a highly developed, highly supervised structure, and Belichick has his finger on everything. He is coaching the coaches as much as he coaches the players.

 

[goheels22002]

I mean was it seamless because of Patricia/Flores or because of Belichick.

The defense has progressed through the season almost every year bb has been here.


Again, we’ve seen that many times under bb.


We are plugging like minded coaches into the same system. I don’t suddenly expect us to be stupid about defense.
To me it’s more about structuring responsibilities. Bryan Flores coordinated the way Belichick taught and directed him and the position coaches are teaching the techniques that bb wants taught the way he wants them taught.
It’s not like we hire coaches and have them run on their own. It’s a highly developed, highly supervised structure, and Belichick has his finger on everything. He is coaching the coaches as much as he coaches the players.

I don't disagree with any of what you wrote. The issue is about the transition. Unless somebody returns, the new guys are not going to have any of that institutional memory that you are talking about. The Sciano bailout before he event took the job formally was unprecedented. I think we we will be talking about this a lot in September - October, and if we're relatively comfortable with the makeup of the defensive roster now, we'll need to remember this as the season progresses.

 

[everlong]

Week 4: This defense sucks. They should have spent the money to resign Flowers, Jones, Hicks........

Week 8: They've improved but they need to get younger at safety.

Week 12: If they can just get more pressure maybe they can make a run.

Week 17: This is why Bill is brilliant. We have all this cheap talent and all the comp picks to keep rebuilding and meanwhile the guys they let go aren't worth the money. We are winning it all!

 

[SBLIII]

Week 4: This defense sucks. They should have spent the money to resign Flowers, Jones, Hicks........

Week 8: They've improved but they need to get younger at safety.

Week 12: If they can just get more pressure maybe they can make a run.

Week 17: This is why Bill is brilliant. We have all this cheap talent and all the comp picks to keep rebuilding and meanwhile the guys they let go aren't worth the money. We are winning it all!

WASH
RINSE
REPEAT

LOL