2018 Defense vs 2019 Defense

[Tuck]

As always it’ll come down to injuries but no matter what they need a nose in the mold of Washington, Traylor or Wilfork. Brown was not that guy, not sure Pennell will be either.

 

[patchick]

As always it’ll come down to injuries but no matter what they need a nose in the mold of Washington, Traylor or Wilfork.

Do they? They haven't fielded a player like that in 5 years, and the defense looks very different now.

 

[Sicilian]

I think they have the potential to be as good if not better than last year, but there's a LOT that can go right or wrong between now and then:

- Bennett could replace Flowers, but that's not a guarantee.
- He wasn't consistent, but we haven't replaced Clayborn. Rivers or Wise could step up, or Winovich could contribute right away, but again, no guarantees.
- We are still short one Shelton from last year, though I admit his production shouldn't be hard to replace.
- Gilmore had a career season last year. He could repeat, or he could regress to the mean. I still expect him to be a top corner in the league, but he was arguably THE best last year, and it's hard to simply count on that year in and year out.
- Bentley could be a nice addition to the LBs, but until we see how he recovers from his injury, he's an unknown.
- There are several veterans on the defense that we should be able to count on, but are at the stages of their career where drop offs are not shocking: Hightower, Chung, both McCourtys, and perhaps Bennett. Again, I'm not saying they WILL drop off, just that it's a possibility.

All of this makes me sound negative, but I'm not trying to be. Just saying it's a bit early to be thinking only of all the things that could make the defense better, without acknowledging that every year at least one thing doesn't go as planned. I think they're set up well though, we'll see.

 

[patsinthesnow]

One aspect not discussed much is the outcome of Deatrich Wise & Adam Butler. They’ve spent their first two years as productive role players. IMO Butler is one of the more underrated players on the team & was key to the sub package pass rush in the playoffs. Wise has been more inconsistent but decided to show up in the superbowl.

If one of those players can take a step forward in their third years then you are looking at the best secondary in football paired with a pretty good front seven. I’m confident Winovich can be a better overall player than Clayborn & whatever Bentley can provide will be a bonus. Hopefully Bennett can do a good amount of what Flowers did.

 

[SBLIII]

Coverage is king in the NFL. We will be good.

Add another DT like re-signing Shelton and I believe it can be top 3 in scoring defense. Don't care about total defense.

 

[mgteich]

Belichick will continue to look for upgrades and camp bodies. That is taken for granted. It does seem that we NEED a veteran DT to be added to the mix.

DT
Do we all agree that we need to add a veteran? Shelton could be that player, or Belichick could find a potential upgrade.

DE
Bennett, Winovich, Simon, Wise, Davis/Rivers/Harris/Kumalu
Are we done?

 

[SBLIII]

Belichick will continue to look for upgrades and camp bodies. That is taken for granted. It does seem that we NEED a veteran DT to be added to the mix.

DT
Do we all agree that we need to add a veteran? Shelton could be that player, or Belichick could find a potential upgrade.

DE
Bennett, Winovich, Simon, Wise, Davis/Rivers/Harris/Kumalu
Are we done?

I think Belichick is fine with Shelton and will re-sign him after May 9.

 

[mgteich]

We have no need to wait. I suppose Shelton can wait to see if he can get a better offer after May 7th.

I think Belichick is fine with Shelton and will re-sign him after May 9.

 

[jah]

Belichick will continue to look for upgrades and camp bodies. That is taken for granted. It does seem that we NEED a veteran DT to be added to the mix.

DT
Do we all agree that we need to add a veteran? Shelton could be that player, or Belichick could find a potential upgrade.

DE
Bennett, Winovich, Simon, Wise, Davis/Rivers/Harris/Kumalu
Are we done?

Minor point that could become relevant later in the year: I'm pretty sure Kamalu is more of a DT here (he might line up on the end of the line but you sure won't see him standing in a 3-4 look). He might even be the best candidate to replace Shelton's 53 man roster spot currently (the role would obviously be vastly different).

 

[jah]

We have no need to wait. I suppose Shelton can wait to see if he can get a better offer after May 7th.

I assume that May 9 date was thrown out there to suggest some other team might be dumb enough to give him a comp pick qualifying deal.

 

[mgteich]

I assume that May 9 date was thrown out there to suggest some other team might be dumb enough to give him a comp pick qualifying deal.

They would need to give him so much that we would get a 5th instead of a 6th. We already have 4 picks (the max).

 

[mgteich]

Minor point that could become relevant later in the year: I'm pretty sure Kamalu is more of a DT here (he might line up on the end of the line but you sure won't see him standing in a 3-4 look). He might even be the best candidate to replace Shelton's 53 man roster spot currently (the role would obviously be vastly different).

I think we need the additional biggie for the middle. Consider what happens if Pennell is out for a couple off games.

 

[Ring 6]

6-3 and 300 lbs is not "very" under sized. Wise when he plays a 3 tech is. but by no means is Cowart.

He is a DE on run downs and a DT on passing downs. NOT a guy who should be playing DT in a nickel base on early downs, and yes barely 300 which will probably be 285 by the season is small for that role.

 

[patman52]

He is a DE on run downs and a DT on passing downs. NOT a guy who should be playing DT in a nickel base on early downs, and yes barely 300 which will probably be 285 by the season is small for that role.

I don't want to plan on having a 4th rd rookie starting either and I don't think he will. I think Butler will have that role.

 

[patman52]

I think they have the potential to be as good if not better than last year, but there's a LOT that can go right or wrong between now and then:

- Bennett could replace Flowers, but that's not a guarantee.
- He wasn't consistent, but we haven't replaced Clayborn. Rivers or Wise could step up, or Winovich could contribute right away, but again, no guarantees.
- We are still short one Shelton from last year, though I admit his production shouldn't be hard to replace.
- Gilmore had a career season last year. He could repeat, or he could regress to the mean. I still expect him to be a top corner in the league, but he was arguably THE best last year, and it's hard to simply count on that year in and year out.
- Bentley could be a nice addition to the LBs, but until we see how he recovers from his injury, he's an unknown.
- There are several veterans on the defense that we should be able to count on, but are at the stages of their career where drop offs are not shocking: Hightower, Chung, both McCourtys, and perhaps Bennett. Again, I'm not saying they WILL drop off, just that it's a possibility.

All of this makes me sound negative, but I'm not trying to be. Just saying it's a bit early to be thinking only of all the things that could make the defense better, without acknowledging that every year at least one thing doesn't go as planned. I think they're set up well though, we'll see.

Yes it is valid to point out what could happen with some negativity as long as you give equal likelihood of other players playing better and improving. Some are going to play better than last year and some won't.

 

[patfanken]

Williams will be an upgrade over Melifonwu who was on the 53 last year.

I'm wondering why so little love for Obi. His combination of size, speed, quickness, and smarts is kind of unrivaled. He experience in Oakland was rife with injuries, position uncertainty, and coaching instability.

His short and inconsequential time he had with us last season gives him a leg up in his development. He might have been the major reason the Pats didn't draft a S this year.

Now it MIGHT not happen for him in NE, but at THIS particular point there isn't a good reason why we shouldn't be just as excited about what Melifonwu can bring to the team as we are by any of the other new comers who are about to join us.

 

[SBLIII]

I'm wondering why so little love for Obi. His combination of size, speed, quickness, and smarts is kind of unrivaled. He experience in Oakland was rife with injuries, position uncertainty, and coaching instability.

His short and inconsequential time he had with us last season gives him a leg up in his development. He might have been the major reason the Pats didn't draft a S this year.

Now it MIGHT not happen for him in NE, but at THIS particular point there isn't a good reason why we shouldn't be just as excited about what Melifonwu can bring to the team as we are by any of the other new comers who are about to join us.

He needs a good offseason but he could have certainly and push others more established players out. He does have a lot of potential, needs to realize it.

 

[Ring 6]

I don't want to plan on having a 4th rd rookie starting either and I don't think he will. I think Butler will have that role.

Butler can’t be an early down DT either.

Let me clarify.
We need DTs that play in early downs. Right now that’s Pennell and guy. Guy is smallish for the role.

Butler is a DE on early downs who can move inside on passing downs. That is the type of player Cowart is.

We arent talking about butler or cowart being starters.
We are talking about who backs up the real
DTs that have to be big huge space eaters to stop the run in a nickel base.

 

[patfanken]

The strength of this team is BY FAR the depth and talent of the secondary. But we know that really good defenses are built from the inside out. And right now there are a LOT of questions that need to be answered about the "inside" of that equation.

Lawrence Guy is NOT one of them. When all is said and done, Guy might rank among the top ten FA picks ups of BB's career. All his measurables were bordering on the elite, and his effectiveness within this defensive system when he was on the field was never in question. He is the perfect example of a "no-name" player who allows the defense, as a whole, be better.

It's the rest of the DL that has me worried. If I was sure we were getting the Michael Bennett we saw terrorizing the Pats OL in 2016, I'd have no worries. If I could get 90% of that, I'd feel great. But the man is now 34 and his YOUNGER brother is retired from the league. Also I take a lesson from Chris Long's experience. Long left because this was a defense that didn't match his skill set, and I see Bennett's skill set to be more like Long's than Flowers. MAYBE this will be a match made in heaven, but the question remains.

Pennell? I know very little about him, and would like to know more, but to think he'll be a seamless fit from Brown, or an upgrade is ONLY a possibility. Another big question there.

Rivers, Wise, Winovich, Simon or whomever are ALL big question marks coming off the edge. To think any or all are upgrades is a ludicrous thought at this point in time. Any and all COULD be upgrades, but that's an unknown now.

You DO have to like the LB's we currently have. Van Noy has been the Christmas present under the tree that no one expected. He has been dependable, as well as impactful. Roberts has shown improvement in a limited role, Bentley showed great promise, and Simon was a fantastic midseason pick up relatively. And of course Hightower's smarts and position flexibility is what pulls this group together.

HOWEVER, you have to wonder about the very nature of the LB position and how important this group actually impacts the overall defense, as more and more teams need DB's to avoid the awful mismatches offenses can create vs LB's. I like that we will have a strong group, but just how important IS having a strong LB group is now days.

Finally, some of these questions might be answered by guys who aren't even on the roster yet. I'd feel better about the inside rush if a guy like Solomon Thomas could be gotten in a trade, or better yet, Gerald McCoy. Ziggy Ansah would be an upgrade Edge rusher IF there is cap space (down to around $13MM currently)

So in the end, the potential EXISTS that this defense will be a good one....by the end of the season, when it counts the most. But a LOT of questions remain. Questions that will likely only be answered after Halloween.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Long left because this was a defense that didn't match his skill set, and I see Bennett's skill set to be more like Long's than Flowers

Flowers has been compared to Bennett since he was drafted.

I'd feel better about the inside rush if a guy like Solomon Thomas could be gotten in a trade, or better yet, Gerald McCoy.

You’d feel better with Solomon Thomas? He’s been garbage since day 1 with the 9ers. I’ve read he’s decent in run support but watching him rush the passer is a joke. He was behind on the depth chart for most of the year but they force him on the field since he was a 3rd overall pick.