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Kraft Orchids Case - Prosecuters Want a Tug Rule?

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You are all over the page.

Everything we have seen says the warrant for the camera was to investigate trafficking not prostitution. So arguing a warrant to place a camera to surveil prostitution isn’t relevant unless the warrant was for prostitution which we have every reason to believe it wasn’t.
Arguing that there wasn’t evidence of trafficking is premature at best because the facts the warrant is based upon are not available. The judge felt they were and the law says the judge is the one to make that call. The argument that the warrant wasn’t legit hinges on the facts we don’t know being specious AND the judge being incompetent which while possible doesn’t really seem likely.

Btw your version of the evidence differs (or has been softened) from what I read. I’ve read they slept there, on the massage tables, all the time, and were moved from location to location against their will, and of course were engaging in prostitution.

And to answer your question, unfortunately, last night I didn’t sleep hardly at all, having tweaked my back and being awoken all night long by stiffness and pain, finally giving up hope of sleep by 5. Thanks for asking.

Sorry for your back troubles.

My understanding of "trafficking" is abduction/kidnapping. All I've heard so far is evidence of poor working conditions not kidnapping. Did one of the girls say "please help me officer, I've been kidnapped"?; did one of the girls match a description of a missing person?; did one of the girls' parents say "my daughter was grab by masked guys in a black van and I found out she's now working at this rub joint?" I just can't envision any kidnapping scenario that wouldn't warrant an emergency response obviate the need for a surveillance warrant.

Letting your kidnapped daughter continue to service guys while you videotape it isn't law enforcement, that sound like a scene from "Reno 911."
 
This isn't about just Kraft, there are 24 other men being charged, 15 of them had their 12 law firms file a joint motion to preserve the videos (not to release them). If this in fact was a human trafficking investigation they went about it the wrong way or simply just used it as an excuse to get the warrants to install the cameras.

Here is an example of a successful human trafficking FBI investigation of a Korean massage parlor ring in Michigan. They got the operators of the ring convicted and the operation shut down. No prostitution charges for the girls or the johns were filed. No video cameras were used, they went after the human trafficking. Instead here it is clear they were after the prostitution to embarrass the johns and used human trafficking as an excuse to sensationalize the arrests.

Ex-FBI Agent: Robert Kraft Case in Florida Reminds Me of Our Ann Arbor Investigation

People should be doing what we usually don’t: we should be actually siding with Kraft’s attorney and petitioning an investigation into the Jupiter PD’s conduct by the state officials. I could give two craps about Kraft. Sex trafficking is a huge issue and needs to be eradicated, we can all agree. But “the evil of the crime” should not allow us to give a blank check for police sureveillance. This is not a dramatic statement that is is the type of crap that ultimately leads to a one of these dysutopian future societies in literature and movies where everyone is being watched because “it’s for our own protection.”

There should more outrage about the general, stipulated facts of this investigation, and what appears to be a disgusting abuse of a limited privacy invasion privledge, and less outrage about some guys getting a consensual HJ.
 
It’s fun to see so many people so desperately willing to carry water for a multi billionaire who paid money for sex.
I don't see anyone defending Kraft but the possible violations of 4th amendment rights. Everyone agrees he went to the spa to get a happy ending. We all know that is illegal. NFL can suspend Kraft for all I care. F***k him.

I have a major problem with the way LE went about gathering the evidence, using a warrant used for terrorism to bust a bunch of johns getting massages is not the reason we all gave up on some of our rights in passing the Patriot Act.
 
Sorry, but Robert Craft is guilty of soliciting sex. Case closed.

That’s fine...no one disagrees that he’s guilty of that in the most literal sense.

Would it bother you if your wife/girlfriend/mother/daughter was videotaped secretly by the police without any clothes on while getting that appeared to be a very private closed door massage? And that video was watched by the department? I bet the issue why they did it - and whether they should be allowed to would become of more importance to you. Just a hunch.
 
Legitimately sorry to hear about your back problems @AndyJohnson . Back issues SUCK. Hope you get well soon.
 
Sorry, but Robert Craft is guilty of soliciting sex. Case closed.

Not true. Case is still very much open. Kraft (spelling corrected) is still very much innocent until proven guilty.

Sorry,
America
 
I don't see anyone defending Kraft but the possible violations of 4th amendment rights. Everyone agrees he went to the spa to get a happy ending. We all know that is illegal. NFL can suspend Kraft for all I care. F***k him.

I have a major problem with the way LE went about gathering the evidence, using a warrant used for terrorism to bust a bunch of johns getting massages is not the reason we all gave up on some of our rights in passing the Patriot Act.

This times a million.
 
This isn't about just Kraft, there are 24 other men being charged, 15 of them had their 12 law firms file a joint motion to preserve the videos (not to release them). If this in fact was a human trafficking investigation they went about it the wrong way or simply just used it as an excuse to get the warrants to install the cameras.

Here is an example of a successful human trafficking FBI investigation of a Korean massage parlor ring in Michigan. They got the operators of the ring convicted and the operation shut down. No prostitution charges for the girls or the johns were filed. No video cameras were used, they went after the human trafficking. Instead here it is clear they were after the prostitution to embarrass the johns and used human trafficking as an excuse to sensationalize the arrests.

Ex-FBI Agent: Robert Kraft Case in Florida Reminds Me of Our Ann Arbor Investigation

Thanks for the link. Great article.

They didn't necessarily use cameras in the private rooms but they did use surveillance and telephone pen-registers.

Surveillance and telephone pen-registers indicated some interaction between spas in Ann Arbor and all over the country.

That case sounds identical to the Palm Beach case which seems to prove that the Palm Beach LE were correct with their suspicions of human trafficking and hence the warrant for cameras. Whether they prove it or not is another thing.

The article implies why it took so long to prove the human trafficking charge. They collected evidence over a long period of time.

Anyway, Kraft got caught doing something illegal during an investigation for human trafficking. The Ann Arbor LE didn't go after the "johns" but the Palm Beach LE are. Bad luck for Kraft. In the article I posted earlier they state that the Palm Beach LE were trying to attack human trafficking from multiple angles including going after the "johns".
 
I don't see anyone defending Kraft but the possible violations of 4th amendment rights. Everyone agrees he went to the spa to get a happy ending. We all know that is illegal. NFL can suspend Kraft for all I care. F***k him.

I have a major problem with the way LE went about gathering the evidence, using a warrant used for terrorism to bust a bunch of johns getting massages is not the reason we all gave up on some of our rights in passing the Patriot Act.

But that link you posted regarding the Ann Arbor bust indicates that the Palm Beach LE department were right to be suspicious of a human trafficking issue and hence the warrant. Or not?
 
Two totally different subject matters. One involves violence against women which is a huge black eye for the league. The other is Kraft getting a handy from a willing participant whom he tipped $100 afterward. You can't compare the two.

You are missing the point completely. The NFL found that there was nothing to the charges Against Elliott yet Goodell gave him 6 games anyways. So regardless of how minor you consider the charge against Kraft it has nothing to do with what Goodell will mete our.
 
Human trafficking is extremely tough to prove for various reasons but mainly because the women involved won't testify for obvious reasons.

But to fight human trafficking they are trying to fight it from all fronts including arresting the "johns". Is it the right way? I don't know.

From what I've read in this case they have arrested numerous "johns", seized assets and accused a few of racketeering. So they're trying to get what they can. Kraft got caught in the middle of it all.

Raiding massage parlors isn’t hard. But proving human trafficking is

I have dealt with these cases for over 10 years in federal court, and have never seen an anti-trafficking approach that targets the end users in investigations. That is the equivalent of trying to take down the Chapos in drug trafficking by arresting and publicizing the arrests of drug users/possessors at the street level. You might claim some incidental end user deterrent (take out the demand by targeting end users, kill the business profits and then the business), but I believe we have established through rising crime rates that the approach is not generally effective in trafficking type offenses (drug, human, alien, etc.).

In trafficking generally, that approach would alert the leader/organizers at every level to active law enforcement interest (we may assume they are not in custody because they aren't morons). Add to that the end users likely face small punishments, are unlikely to know anything of the actual operation, and even if they have some knowledge are unlikely to snitch and face possible violent reprisal given the risk/reward calculus for a trivial offense.

Law enforcement/prosecutors can make use of the low level leaders and organizers in human trafficking activities. Charges having as elements coercion or threats tend to carry serious prison time in federal court, and defendants will possibly inform on the organization to save themselves. These operations are frequently interstate or international, so the odds of some local operation successfully conducting that type of investigation is small at best. The odds of someone cooperating when local clowns go public is about zero, as twenty years of prison time is better than 5 minutes on the street before the unknowns of the international operation take you out as they will be watching the public proceedings and sentencing (i.e., extremely lenient sentence means snitch).

Local cops take down brothels all the time. Those are frequently RICO-type cases (forfeiture and higher sentences) because of the illegal proceeds/activity controlled through an organized structure rather than, for example, the independent street walker. Brothels, when populated by prostitutes who voluntarily join and participate in the operation, do not implicate human trafficking by definition.

Victims will testify in trafficking cases. In the international cases, the incentive is lawful status here (U-visas). In interstate cases, the feds will take every named defendant down and send them away for a long time, so the threat is eliminated to the witnesses. Federal indictments generally stay sealed until the majority or all of the co-conspirators are arrested, with pretrial release a statistical unlikelihood.
 
Ok let’s use common sense.

Has the investigation into trafficking been concluded? Have they obtained any evidence?
What would it serve to leave the brother open? Isn’t closing the brothel and removing the girls from the situation a success of such an investigation? Isn’t bob krafts hand job a minor piece of the trafficking investigation rather than as some are implying the whole reason to create a ruse of a trafficking investigation? Do you honestly believe that the police would make up a trafficking accusation in order to sornd their time making misdemeanor arrests for old men getting hand jobs from hookers? I understand this board wants the entire ordeal to be kraft-centric but in reality he is just a dope who stumbled into an investiagation and committed a crime.

I disagree on the grounds that over two thirds of their case is made up from illegal attained evidence. The rest of my objections are that you can’t discount the bill of rights, the constitution, methods and practices that are inherently ingrained in our law enforcement. Now, if you are on board with this then you are an anti American. Anti fair, anti law and the antichrist.
 
I never said my friend thinks Andy. Don’t post things I didn’t say. A police officer told me what official protocol is

It’s going to come out the feds weren’t involved and I’m looking forward to you admitting you’re wrong
Why would I admit I am wrong? I didn’t say they were. You said they weren’t, I asked if you could help me find the story because I was interested in learning about it and you cane back when TMZ said.
I’m right that you don’t know. I dont either.
If you get lucky and are right I’ll give you a thumbs up, but it wouldn’t mean I am wrong because I didn’t say they were involved. Because I don’t know.
 
You are missing the point completely. The NFL found that there was nothing to the charges Against Elliott yet Goodell gave him 6 games anyways.

That is not even close to being true regarding the NFL and Elliott.

Here is the NFL's statement on Elliot's suspension:

In a letter to Elliott advising him of the decision, Todd Jones, the NFL's Special Counsel for Conduct, said these advisors "were of the view that there is substantial and persuasive evidence supporting a finding that [Elliott] engaged in physical violence against Ms. Thompson on multiple occasions during the week of July 16, 2016."

After reviewing the record, and having considered the views of the independent advisors, the commissioner determined that the credible evidence established that Elliott engaged in conduct that violated NFL policy.

NFL suspends Cowboys RB Ezekiel Elliott 6 games

 
I have dealt with these cases for over 10 years in federal court, and have never seen an anti-trafficking approach that targets the end users in investigations. That is the equivalent of trying to take down the Chapos in drug trafficking by arresting and publicizing the arrests of drug users/possessors at the street level. You might claim some incidental end user deterrent (take out the demand by targeting end users, kill the business profits and then the business), but I believe we have established through rising crime rates that the approach is not generally effective in trafficking type offenses (drug, human, alien, etc.).

In trafficking generally, that approach would alert the leader/organizers at every level to active law enforcement interest (we may assume they are not in custody because they aren't morons). Add to that the end users likely face small punishments, are unlikely to know anything of the actual operation, and even if they have some knowledge are unlikely to snitch and face possible violent reprisal given the risk/reward calculus for a trivial offense.

Law enforcement/prosecutors can make use of the low level leaders and organizers in human trafficking activities. Charges having as elements coercion or threats tend to carry serious prison time in federal court, and defendants will possibly inform on the organization to save themselves. These operations are frequently interstate or international, so the odds of some local operation successfully conducting that type of investigation is small at best. The odds of someone cooperating when local clowns go public is about zero, as twenty years of prison time is better than 5 minutes on the street before the unknowns of the international operation take you out as they will be watching the public proceedings and sentencing (i.e., extremely lenient sentence means snitch).

Local cops take down brothels all the time. Those are frequently RICO-type cases (forfeiture and higher sentences) because of the illegal proceeds/activity controlled through an organized structure rather than, for example, the independent street walker. Brothels, when populated by prostitutes who voluntarily join and participate in the operation, do not implicate human trafficking by definition.

Victims will testify in trafficking cases. In the international cases, the incentive is lawful status here (U-visas). In interstate cases, the feds will take every named defendant down and send them away for a long time, so the threat is eliminated to the witnesses. Federal indictments generally stay sealed until the majority or all of the co-conspirators are arrested, with pretrial release a statistical unlikelihood.

Thanks for the post. Confirms what several/many have been alluding to, that the police conduct on nailing low level pieces in this “scheme that wasn’t” is totally bizarre and is likely to be scrutinized heavily. Am I correct in making that statement?
 
Agree. His attempts to get off are actually worse than the crime. If he is the upstanding citizen he says he is, he'll take the shame and embarrassment head on, not try to avoid the criminal justice system because he's in a privileged position. And if he truly believes that the video should never have been taken, or the traffic stop not made, there are other ways to address improving law enforcement activity that don't look like you are just trying to avoid paying the price for something you obviously did.

His attempts to get off WERE the crime.
 
I disagree on the grounds that over two thirds of their case is made up from illegal attained evidence. The rest of my objections are that you can’t discount the bill of rights, the constitution, methods and practices that are inherently ingrained in our law enforcement. Now, if you are on board with this then you are an anti American. Anti fair, anti law and the antichrist.

Preach it!!!!
 
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