Pittsburgh Next

[Wheelman]

While I agree with you, I just don't think the front is capable. It needs to be completely re-tooled in the offseason. The team could realistically stand to replace every DT on the roster.

I don't agree with this. I think Lawrence Guy has been solid this season. Probably our best interior d-lineman.

 

[luuked]

I don't agree with this. I think Lawrence Guy has been solid this season. Probably our best interior d-lineman.

Butler is having a good season, Guy is also having one. Brown playing better than in the last two years. "Fascinating" how the Dolphins only scored 7 points against the regular defense in the second half after we switched to base defense against the run. This "the entire front sux" is just another reductive, lazy narrative.

That being said Shelton is the same failure as Branch was last year. And missing that big guy in the middle is the main difference between us being able to defend the run well out of sub like we did in 2015 and 2016 and the gashing that happened last year and at times this year.

 

[supafly]

I don't agree with this. I think Lawrence Guy has been solid this season. Probably our best interior d-lineman.

The pickings are slim and the bar is set pretty low, but I don’t think there should be any question that Guy has been our best run stopper. Others may see him as having a mediocre season, whereas I think he should be bumped up one category to “good.”

Shelton has sucked, and Wise and Brown have been mediocre. Just my take.

 

[Kontradiction]

Butler is having a good season, Guy is also having one. Brown playing better than in the last two years. "Fascinating" how the Dolphins only scored 7 points against the regular defense in the second half after we switched to base defense against the run. This "the entire front sux" is just another reductive, lazy narrative.

That being said Shelton is the same failure as Branch was last year. And missing that big guy in the middle is the main difference between us being able to defend the run well out of sub like we did in 2015 and 2016 and the gashing that happened last year and at times this year.

It’s really not. If you think it is, it’s reasonable to conclude that you have zero clue of what you’re looking at and future opinions on defensive line play should be disregarded post haste.

 

[Kontradiction]

I don't agree with this. I think Lawrence Guy has been solid this season. Probably our best interior d-lineman.

Guy hasn’t mostly been solid. He’s just been better than the two guys he’s played next to (one of which has been so bad, he’s been a healthy scratch). When the DT position gets overhauled in the offseason, nobody should be surprised if he’s relegated to being a rotational piece again.

 

[Kontradiction]

Oh, I’m looking forward to this.

 

[supafly]

When the DT position gets overhauled in the offseason, nobody should be surprised if he’s relegated to being a rotational piece again.

I would agree with this. I think Guy is a nice rotational piece who has been playing over his head (kind of how I view LB Roberts, this year), but I think that his 2018 play is closer to “good” than it is to “mediocre,” that’s all. As we both pointed out, the bar is set pretty low, so perhaps that’s why he seems to be the best run stopper to me.

I would prefer a couple of higher round picks and a free agent pickup (or even two), which would improve the talent and reduce his role for 2019. That said, I do think that he’s been a solid pickup who has been providing good value.

 

[Nunchucks]

So Pats don't get credit for going into chicago and beating a good bears team?

That win in-regards to this season would be more impressive than beating the steelers in pittsburgh

That game was an outlier

 

[Kontradiction]

I would agree with this. I think Guy is a nice rotational piece who has been playing over his head (kind of how I view LB Roberts, this year), but I think that his 2018 play is closer to “good” than it is to “mediocre,” that’s all. As we both pointed out, the bar is set pretty low, so perhaps that’s why he seems to be the best run stopper to me.

I would prefer a couple of higher round picks and a free agent pickup (or even two), which would improve the talent and reduce his role for 2019. That said, I do think that he’s been a solid pickup who has been providing good value.

Guy is essentially a poor man's Jarvis Green. A solid rotational piece to have to spell your starters depending on the situation. He's been, easily I might add, the best DT this team has had all season. Brown has not "played better than he has last year" by any stretch of the imagination. He's merely maintained where he was at, which is mediocre at best. If he was better than last year, the Patriots wouldn't be allowing 4.9 a tote on the season. Shelton has been utterly useless. The Patriots had to sift through the bargain bin at the position again this season because Brown is not giving them what they had hoped for when they drafted him. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. Shelton is an example of how it doesn't.

At 4.9 per carry on the year, I'm not sure how anyone can look at the DT position and say that critical analysis of it is a "lazy reductive narrative." I guess maybe if you get spoon fed your opinion by media guys, one of which is a massive fart sniffer for the team, that makes sense. But the logic does not compute. This is, thus far, the worst run D of the Belichick era. That includes 2002 and 2017. The "logic" (or lack thereof) behind standing up for the DT group while, at the same time, recognizing that fact is contradictory. I suppose that's why I got a few sarcastic "genius" and "funny" ratings before the poster in question hit the eject button. Too bad. This would have been an easy piece of work since he was already beginning to walk back his central thesis in the very same post.

I too suspect the Patriots will let Brown and Shelton ride off into the sunset after the year and double dip at DT. Whether that's through two early picks or an early pick and a FA acquisition/trade remains to be seen.

 

[obgod3]

While the D Line hasent been stellar this year I hope they can muster a good performance against the Steelers. Much like last nite, the run defense of KC has been pretty much not so good this year yet they stepped up last nite for sure.

Ill also ask a question, knowing that NE has given up 4.9 per this year on the ground do you all think maybe it is somewhat due to the very good performance by the secondary? What I mean is a lot of teams already know the secondary is pretty good and maybe strategize to run more than pass against NE? A question to the forum?

 

[Sicilian]

While the D Line hasent been stellar this year I hope they can muster a good performance against the Steelers. Much like last nite, the run defense of KC has been pretty much not so good this year yet they stepped up last nite for sure.

Ill also ask a question, knowing that NE has given up 4.9 per this year on the ground do you all think maybe it is somewhat due to the very good performance by the secondary? What I mean is a lot of teams already know the secondary is pretty good and maybe strategize to run more than pass against NE? A question to the forum?

I think they might be related, but not quite how you think. IMO, it's more about the Patriots playing a ton of nickel/dime, which helps them against the pass, but leaves them more susceptible to the run. Now, what you hope is that you can perform better (much better) than they have versus the run in that front, but it's not working so far.

 

[mgteich]

Run defense suffers when a team is almost always in nickel or dime. [repeat 10 times]

That being said, as has been posted, we could have (probably should have) traded for a NT. Of course, every one would have been complaining about trading a 2nd for a NT when we play nickel almost always. Perhaps no one who might fit in immediately was available to us.
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This week, we will be daring PITT to run.

 

[luuked]

I'm not sure how anyone can look at the DT position and say that critical analysis of it is a "lazy reductive narrative."

Please show me where I said anything about the DT position when I called a lot of the statements around here reductive. During that exercise maybe you will realize that there is a huge difference between talking about DTs specifically and the front six as a whole. I made it clear that they need to get someone who can provide what Branch brought to the table in 15 and 16.

So once again in what is a pattern with you.. first read, then think about that and only once you have grasped the words you were reading post something in return.

 

[Kontradiction]

Please show me where I said anything about the DT position when I called a lot of the statements around here reductive. During that exercise maybe you will realize that there is a huge difference between talking about DTs specifically and the front six as a whole. I made it clear that they need to get someone who can provide what Branch brought to the table in 15 and 16.

So once again in what is a pattern with you.. first read, then think about that and only once you have grasped the words you were reading post something in return.

No problem...

Butler is having a good season, Guy is also having one. Brown playing better than in the last two years.

• Butler - DT
• Guy - DT
• Brown - DT

That's to say nothing of the fact that when you call statements about the front "reductive," you're also talking about the DT position. Because, you know, that position is a part of the defensive front.

 

[luuked]

No problem...

• Butler - DT
• Guy - DT
• Brown - DT

That's to say nothing of the fact that when you call statements about the front "reductive," you're also talking about the DT position. Because, you know, that position is a part of the defensive front.

So we agree that I never said that being concerned about DTs is "lazy or reductive" ? Cool.

Because I agree that DTs are an issue like I said in the post you are quoting:

That being said Shelton is the same failure as Branch was last year. And missing that big guy in the middle is the main difference between us being able to defend the run well out of sub like we did in 2015 and 2016 and the gashing that happened last year and at times this year.

Finally and once again maybe I just assumed people are nuanced enough to realize that: A "good season" for a UDFA like Butler or a depth player like Guy means something else than when you say "good season" to someone like Gilmore or Flowers, right ?

Similarly saying Brown is having a better year than in the last two seasons doesn't mean he is a pro bowl candidate. He jumps back and forth between above and below average. Which is better than what he showed in the last few years.

Anyway, point is I don't think "the front six" are an issue as a whole but that not being able to find someone to do what Branch did in 2015 and 2016 is an issue that puts stress on a lot of other parts.

 

[mgteich]

.
Anyway, point is I don't think "the front six" are an issue as a whole but that not being able to find someone to do what Branch did in 2015 and 2016 is an issue that puts stress on a lot of other parts.

1) We have Guy and Butler at DT for next year. We need two more, include a starter, including true NT.

2) We will have Hightower, Van Noy, Bentley and Roberts for next year. We will also have the usual Ster or two; this year McClellan has been a fine addition (and also Humber). Is this a huge issue?

Could we use a young stud eat LB? Could we use an upgrade for our 2019 #4 LB? Of course! That is the #1 or #2 priority of this board every year, and the #3-5 priority of Belichick.

 

[Kontradiction]

So we agree that I never said that being concerned about DTs is "lazy or reductive" ? Cool.

Because I agree that DTs are an issue like I said in the post you are quoting:



Finally and once again maybe I just assumed people are nuanced enough to realize that: A "good season" for a UDFA like Butler or a depth player like Guy means something else than when you say "good season" to someone like Gilmore or Flowers, right ?

Similarly saying Brown is having a better year than in the last two seasons doesn't mean he is a pro bowl candidate. He jumps back and forth between above and below average. Which is better than what he showed in the last few years.

Actually, you only singled out Shelton while trying to pimp both Brown and Guy. All three are issues. Shelton is garbage, Brown is merely mediocre and is not "having a better season than last season" by any measure whatsoever, and Guy is being overused due to Shelton being garbage. Butler even getting the snaps he's getting is also an indictment on the DT position as a whole. Expect wholesale changes at that position.

Anyway, point is I don't think "the front six" are an issue as a whole but that not being able to find someone to do what Branch did in 2015 and 2016 is an issue that puts stress on a lot of other parts.

The front six is definitely an issue as a whole. Hightower's play is improving and Flowers is a nice piece, but that's just about it. Wise has taken a step back and gets pushed around far too easily against the run, when he's even been able to get on the field, Rivers has looked like yet another top pick on that side of the ball that is about to bust (if he hasn't already), KVN (like Guy) is a nice rotational piece to have at LB but that's about it, and Elolandon is still shooting the wrong gaps and completely blowing coverage responsibilities. The DT position is a dumpster fire, but it's not like the DEs and the LB corps haven't had their hand in the failures of this unit. Hell, Roberts was also responsible for the Bolden run on Sunday. Guy shot the right gap and the other gap was supposed to be filled by Roberts. You wouldn't know it, though, since he was nowhere in the picture.

Finally, if the front isn't an issue as a whole, then who are we blaming for the worst-in-the-Belichick-era 4.9 per carry?

 

[luuked]

Could we use a young stud eat LB? Could we use an upgrade for our 2019 #4 LB? Of course! That is the #1 or #2 priority of this board every year, and the #3-5 priority of Belichick.

Given everything we have seen in the past and this season DE and safety are way higher on the list of priority than LB. BB will not change his profile of what he is looking for in terms of LBs and unless one of those blue chippers fall or an athletic freak from a small school (think Collins) is available not much will change there.

That is the main reason he had been trying to find that S/LB hybrid forever. Because LBs are positionally not as valuable unless you can find one of those rare ones that can play both. Do I want an upgrade over Roberts ? Yes, but that would be another big LB that is good and consistent against the run and not a coverage guy.

 

[mgteich]

I strongly disagree with regard to giving a high priority to safety. Should be spend a 1st on backup safety? Should we spend $5M a year or more on a backup safety. My answer is no. I understand that many her disagree.

Given everything we have seen in the past and this season DE and safety are way higher on the list of priority than LB. BB will not change his profile of what he is looking for in terms of LBs and unless one of those blue chippers fall or an athletic freak from a small school (think Collins) is available not much will change there.

That is the main reason he had been trying to find that S/LB hybrid forever. Because LBs are positionally not as valuable unless you can find one of those rare ones that can play both. Do I want an upgrade over Roberts ? Yes, but that would be another big LB that is good and consistent against the run and not a coverage guy.

 

[luuked]

I strongly disagree with regard to giving a high priority to safety. Should be spend a 1st on backup safety? Should we spend $5M a year or more on a backup safety. My answer is no. I understand that many her disagree.

We are not looking for a backup but someone who can take over the starting position in a somewhat smooth transition. Of course if DMac agrees to an extension at a reduced rate we might push this off by another year.