Conflicting reports on who was repsonsible for the decision to trade Jimmy (Kraft or Belichick???)

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I think Jimmy Garopollo is going to be really damn good if he's given the right system and players around him. I was really hoping the Patriots would figure out a way to transition from Brady to JG, but not even a room full of brilliant GMs and football minds can solve a problem without a realistic solution.

 

[Tony2046]

Not if the hypothetical was the Pats winning multiple Super Bowls vs sucking for the next 15 years.

Hypotheticals?

Winning multiple Super Bowls?

So you think JG is the next Joe Montana? Based off of 1 and 1/2 games?

 

[QuantumMechanic]

No. He’s saying that if he were offered a choice of Brady retiring in NE but then the team sucking for years vs. Brady not ending his career in NE but the team continuing to be competitive, he’d take the latter. Which is the choice a Patriots fan should make.

Now, if you’re actually primarily a Brady fan rather than a Patriots fan, that’s fine. But own it.

 

[Ivan]

Sure it is...I would choose what's best for the Patriots over any particular player.

And getting rid of the best player in the game today for a guy who couldn’t make it through 2 games when he was needed to play 4 is clearly what’s best for any team.

Thats just logic.

 

[Ivan]

Then your choice should be for Brady.

That’s clearly wrong.

The best move any franchise can make is to get rid of the best player in the game for a completely unproven commodity. The only way you get better is by choosing the unknown over the known, everyone knows that.

 

[Ivan]

That's not relevant to this discussion, though.

Agree completely, reality should not be considered in this discussion.

 

[Ivan]

Sure it is...I would choose what's best for the Patriots over any particular player.

That makes sense. It’s just like the Jet fan who desperately wanted them to draft Christian Hackenberg so they would win multiple Super Bowl’s. All you have to do is look at how well that’s worked out for them.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

No. He’s saying that if he were offered a choice of Brady retiring in NE but then the team sucking for years vs. Brady not ending his career in NE but the team continuing to be competitive, he’d take the latter. Which is the choice a Patriots fan should make.

Now, if you’re actually primarily a Brady fan rather than a Patriots fan, that’s fine. But own it.

It seems to me that the choice is rather...

1) Brady retiring in NE and the Patriots contending for titles for the next 4-5 years, and then falling to the pack, as they rely on a "not the greatest" QB, or

2) relying on a "not the greatest" QB right now, likely falling back to the pack right now.

I am happy that we chose #1. It was the only sensible choice. Opportunities to win titles are rare. We can lose sight of that, being spoiled and all, but we shouldn't.

 

[Ivan]

Not if the hypothetical was the Pats winning multiple Super Bowls vs sucking for the next 15 years.

Absolutely correct. Brady is no lock to get them to a Super Bowl, he was only does that once every other year or so. Garrapolo, on the other hand, would get them there every year, and that’s twice as good a likelihood. Anyone can see that,

 

[supafly]

It seems to me that the choice is rather...

1) Brady retiring in NE and the Patriots contending for titles for the next 4-5 years, and then falling to the pack, as they rely on a "not the greatest" QB, or

2) relying on a "not the greatest" QB right now, likely falling back to the pack right now.

I am happy that we chose #1. It was the only sensible choice. Opportunities to win titles are rare. We can lose sight of that, being spoiled and all, but we shouldn't.

Agree with most of what you said aside from the “falling to the pack” comment, which I’ve seen a lot. While it’s natural to assume that we’ll fall back due to the eventual retirement of the GOAT, it’s also not out of the realm of possibility that Belichick does the exact same thing that he just did with Garoppolo in terms of drafting another high round pick in the spring, which I think is all but certain.

The need will be there, it’s supposed to be one of the richest QB classes in a long time, and we have 3 selections inside what will likely be the first 58-64 picks. After whiffing miserably on some middle round picks (O’Connell, Mallett, trading Brissett), Belichick had a taste of what it was like to draft an upper echelon QB with Garoppolo, who it sounded like he wanted to try and keep for the transition period. There’s certainly a chance that could happen again with a quality selection on a new 4-5 year rookie deal.

In other words, I’m still going to assume that Belichick puts the franchise in a good position when he and Tom are finished, so I think taking a QB this year in a talent rich field is a must.

 

[Tony2046]

No. He’s saying that if he were offered a choice of Brady retiring in NE but then the team sucking for years vs. Brady not ending his career in NE but the team continuing to be competitive, he’d take the latter. Which is the choice a Patriots fan should make.

Now, if you’re actually primarily a Brady fan rather than a Patriots fan, that’s fine. But own it.

Own what? An IF statement?

How about I stick with the IS statement which is Brady is still playing at an elite level.

 

[Deus Irae]

I haven't been following the thread, and this has probably been posted, but...

"But when San Francisco general manager John Lynch approached Patriots coach Bill Belichick about dealing for Garoppolo, Belichick said the young quarterback wasn't available, according to FOX Sports' Jay Glazer, who recounted the story Sunday.

"Absolutely not, he's completely off limits," Belichick said of the Garoppolo trade request, as paraphrased by Glazer.

"So Lynch calls back," Glazer continued, "and actually asks Bill Belichick: 'Alright, so if Garoppolo is off limits, would you trade us Tom Brady?'"



Belichick's response: "What did you just ask me?!"

"[Lynch] said, 'I'm asking, would you trade us Tom Brady? You said Garoppolo is off limits.'"

"Did you just ask me if I would trade Tom Brady? ... Did you just ask if I'd trade the greatest quarterback of all time?"

"And [Lynch] said, 'So is that a no?'"



Yeah, John, that's a hard no. "

Here's what Bill Belichick said when 49ers asked if Tom Brady was available for trade

 

[NE-VT]

Hypotheticals?

Winning multiple Super Bowls?

So you think JG is the next Joe Montana? Based off of 1 and 1/2 games?

I was quite high on JG, so I am going to take a shot at this. Of course no one has a crystal ball, and we can't evaluate counter-factual.

NFL scouts definitely had more evidence than a 1.5 games. They watched JG run the Patriots offense in joint practices. Belichick himself claimed he would have to look twice to see if it were 12 or 10 under center during practices. There is a reason that SF inquired about the availability of Brady and not JG.* League insiders thought there was not chance we were going to trade him away. Listen to how sad Lombardi was after we traded him.

How about I stick with the IS statement which is Brady is still playing at an elite level.

"Brady playing at an elite level going forward" might be an "IS question" more than an "IS statement". I believe there has been some regression already, but he is still very, very good.

EDIT: Article from Dues shows I was wrong on this line. Thought I should leave post as is still.

 

[Ivan]

I haven't been following the thread, and this has probably been posted, but...

"But when San Francisco general manager John Lynch approached Patriots coach Bill Belichick about dealing for Garoppolo, Belichick said the young quarterback wasn't available, according to FOX Sports' Jay Glazer, who recounted the story Sunday.

"Absolutely not, he's completely off limits," Belichick said of the Garoppolo trade request, as paraphrased by Glazer.

"So Lynch calls back," Glazer continued, "and actually asks Bill Belichick: 'Alright, so if Garoppolo is off limits, would you trade us Tom Brady?'"



Belichick's response: "What did you just ask me?!"

"[Lynch] said, 'I'm asking, would you trade us Tom Brady? You said Garoppolo is off limits.'"

"Did you just ask me if I would trade Tom Brady? ... Did you just ask if I'd trade the greatest quarterback of all time?"

"And [Lynch] said, 'So is that a no?'"



Yeah, John, that's a hard no. "

Here's what Bill Belichick said when 49ers asked if Tom Brady was available for trade

Frigging Belichick, why does he only care about Brady and not the team?

There goes their chance at going undefeated for the next 15 years.

 

[Ivan]

Own what? An IF statement?

How about I stick with the IS statement which is Brady is still playing at an elite level.

Just face it, you and Belichick are just Brady fans, you don’t actually care about the team. Only those who support Jimmy 6 quarters are real fans.

 

[Tony2046]

I was quite high on JG, so I am going to take a shot at this. Of course no one has a crystal ball, and we can't evaluate counter-factual.

NFL scouts definitely had more evidence than a 1.5 games. They watched JG run the Patriots offense in joint practices. Belichick himself claimed he would have to look twice to see if it were 12 or 10 under center during practices. There is a reason that SF inquired about the availability of Brady and not JG.* League insiders thought there was not chance we were going to trade him away. Listen to how sad Lombardi was after we traded him.



"Brady playing at an elite level going forward" might be an "IS question" more than an "IS statement". I believe there has been some regression already, but he is still very, very good.

EDIT: Article from Dues shows I was wrong on this line. Thought I should leave post as is still.

I haven't seen any regression. Not sure where you are seeing that.

 

[NE-VT]

I haven't seen any regression. Not sure where you are seeing that.

There is nothing wrong about seeing different things! Lets hope I am proven wrong.

The discussion came up in a re-watch thread:

Re-watch Thread NE @ NYJ

@TeamFirst asked "when re-watching the games do you all see the same?"



To which I said:

Personally, yes. I think this quote is right on:

Brady has not been as ridiculously accurate with the same consistency that has defined his game throughout his career."

In other words, he still makes many incredible throws. He just seems to have a higher rate of misses than he used to. I made up a competition of Brady's misfires from the CAR game. I have been tempted to do it for the other games as well. Part of the reason I have not is because it is a bit a bummer topic, and I don't want to be seen as implying Brady is not still executing at a high level.



If people do want these completions for the other weeks I will make them. (edit: In my original post in the CAR re-watch thread, I discussed each throw in more detail. I agree that some of these are borderline. Might be better to go to original post to discuss if a particular throw is in fact off target.)

I think it makes the Garoppolo offseason situation much more interesting. Will Belichick be willing/able to maintain his mantra of "a year too early, not a year too late" with the GOAT QB? Would fans revolt? What if a year too early is actually five too early? Brady is good enough where a steady slight decline could still leave him top 5 for years.

I stand by everything I said before. There is some follow up conversation, and I make it clear that I still think Brady is an excellent QB.

 

[Ivan]

Hypothetically speaking I would take Brady playing terribly over Jimmy Six Quarters going undefeated the next 15 years.

But that’s just speaking hypothetically.

 

[Deus Irae]

I haven't seen any regression.

That's just because there hasn't been any.

 

[Tony2046]

There is nothing wrong about seeing different things! Lets hope I am proven wrong.

The discussion came up in a re-watch thread:

Re-watch Thread NE @ NYJ

@TeamFirst asked "when re-watching the games do you all see the same?"



To which I said:

Personally, yes. I think this quote is right on:



In other words, he still makes many incredible throws. He just seems to have a higher rate of misses than he used to. I made up a competition of Brady's misfires from the CAR game. I have been tempted to do it for the other games as well. Part of the reason I have not is because it is a bit a bummer topic, and I don't want to be seen as implying Brady is not still executing at a high level.



If people do want these completions for the other weeks I will make them. (edit: In my original post in the CAR re-watch thread, I discussed each throw in more detail. I agree that some of these are borderline. Might be better to go to original post to discuss if a particular throw is in fact off target.)

I think it makes the Garoppolo offseason situation much more interesting. Will Belichick be willing/able to maintain his mantra of "a year too early, not a year too late" with the GOAT QB? Would fans revolt? What if a year too early is actually five too early? Brady is good enough where a steady slight decline could still leave him top 5 for years.

I stand by everything I said before. There is some follow up conversation, and I make it clear that I still think Brady is an excellent QB.

Yeah I disagree completely. The only thing I've seen lately is an attempt to throw deeper more often which has left him in the pocket longer and sometimes absorbing a big hit while throwing.

Other than his occasional barf throws which Brady has made throughout his career he is still accurate and still has a strong arm.

I've been looking for any downside. I've looked when someone brought up the "Fluttering" ******** and I've looked when someone brought up some "Athletic processing" stupidity. But Brady has been throwing passes 60 in air yards down field and still has a high completion rate.

Not sure what you're seeing.