Conflicting reports on what Brady wanted from Kraft after 2017: "The Dynasty" says Brady wanted out, but Wickersham said the opposite

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PatsFanSince74

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Bottom line for me: both reports sound like they could be about the same conversations, filtered through multiple sources, with a bias to one side or the other.

1) The only way we could ever know what actually happened between Brady, Bundchen, Belichick and the Krafts would be to have been in the rooms when the conversations occurred and, even then, it's possible that we wouldn't know enough about their complex relationships to be sure what was being communicated. After those many years, body language and nuances of language would be in play that outside observers can't perceive.

2) It is believable that the five principals (TB, GB, BB, RK and JK) communicated to a small handful of people an overall perspective on what was said (not exactly what was said), which was then repeated a few times and ended up in a form that eventually got to Benedict and Wickersham.
 

sb1

Pro Bowl Player
I'm confused. The first 2 games of 2001 that Drew started don't count either?
14-6 without Brady in the last 15 years.
With a coach as bad as the Bradyites apparently think Belichick is, that record is probably reversed.
 

lancerman

In the Starting Line-Up
Here’s my opinion. Brady and Belichick were coach and QB for 20 years. This is the list of the people who were a coach QB tandem for 20 years or more

1. Tom Brady and Bill Belichick
2. There is no 2.

The length they stayed together is ultimately more significant what took them apart
 

sb1

Pro Bowl Player
Yeah he was meh that’s why he was Super Bowl mvp 4 times. Stop saying non sense. He played 9 Super Bowl and in the 9 Super Bowl he gave the patriots the lead in the 4th quarter in the 3 losses Bill defense c**p the bed in the end
It's remarkable how similar this sounds to a Colts fan making excuses for Peyton Manning back in the day. We used to laugh at them when they did that too.
 

lancerman

In the Starting Line-Up
I'm confused. The first 2 games of 2001 that Drew started don't count either?
He’s also counting the win against the Chiefs where Brady got injured but started the game.

It’s really 13-8 since 2011. Which is okay not great and it really heavily relies on an abysmal 2008 schedule when Belichick was coaching one of his best teams sans the QB ever.
Every version of this is selective when you do Belichick without Brady it’s an attempt to minimize it.

Brady was on the team in 2000. You count that and it’s 18-19. You count his Browns run and Belichick has a losing record without Brady.

Point is. You have to limit like crazy to make Bill look great without Brady and avoid all context
 

sb1

Pro Bowl Player
He’s also counting the win against the Chiefs where Brady got injured but started the game.

It’s really 13-8 since 2011. Which is okay not great and it really heavily relies on an abysmal 2008 schedule when Belichick was coaching one of his best teams sans the QB ever.
Every version of this is selective when you do Belichick without Brady it’s an attempt to minimize it.

Brady was on the team in 2000. You count that and it’s 18-19. You count his Browns run and Belichick has a losing record without Brady.

Point is. You have to limit like crazy to make Bill look great without Brady and avoid all context

The “Belichick was coaching his best team in 2008” thing is overstated. That defense took a massive step backwards from the year before. They gave up over 30 points a game on average in each loss. Brady would have probably gotten them one more win- the Colts game - but they were an easy one and done candidate after that.

Cassel was dreadful in preseason and became quite good during the season. Thats good coaching.

Nobody is saying having Brady didn’t matter for BB but it’s silly to say it was all Brady. It was both of them together.
 

luvbrain

On the Game Day Roster
Instead of appreciating what the two GOATS had accomplished, some of you prefer to talk down on Tom's legacy. Calling him a Tompa Boy is so juvenile. Some of you don't deserve having him as the team QB for 20 years.

BB is a great coach but his system requires absolute buy in from the team. Tom enabled him to do just that and a whole lot more. I think some of you don't realize the significance of this. Citing past records did not alleviate the facts that the non-Brady team of 2008 still missed the playoff, and got beaten by most playoff bound teams that year. Not to mention the big beat down by the Steelers in Foxboro - something that never happened with Brady at the helm.

As for the 3 -1 record, people tend to forget that Jimmy got hurt soon after. He also got hurt and lost for the season when he started his first full season with SF. Tom's durability and toughness are so underrated. With him, the margin of victory is probably going to be higher and more comfortable. That's what a good QB can do for you. Just wish him well and see how the new non-Brady season will transpire.
 

PATSNUTme

Paranoid Homer ex-moderator
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When Brady and BB were together on the top 100 set there seemed to be both a mutual respect and like for each other. If the "books" are correct they both should have been given Oscars for their performance. I'll go with what my eyes saw.
 

sean10mm

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
When Brady and BB were together on the top 100 set there seemed to be both a mutual respect and like for each other. If the "books" are correct they both should have been given Oscars for their performance. I'll go with what my eyes saw.

This book specifically says their final separation was amicable, actually.

Like the second Brady was done as a Patriot, Belichick said something to him like "You're the greatest player and an even better person."
 

NormZauchin

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Yeah, but 36-48 with Cleveland in the 1990's. Believe it or not, coaches, like players, can become better at their jobs than when they were younger.

Add in the 1st year with the Patriots, at 5-11, a season of evaluation really, got rid of a lot of guys after that 2000 season, brought in guys HE wanted in 2001. So since 2001, 14-6 WITHOUT Brady. That's still a .700 win percentage.
Being 36-48 with the Browns is equivalent to 70-14 with the Pats.
 

sb1

Pro Bowl Player
Instead of appreciating what the two GOATS had accomplished, some of you prefer to talk down on Tom's legacy. Calling him a Tompa Boy is so juvenile. Some of you don't deserve having him as the team QB for 20 years.

BB is a great coach but his system requires absolute buy in from the team. Tom enabled him to do just that and a whole lot more. I think some of you don't realize the significance of this. Citing past records did not alleviate the facts that the non-Brady team of 2008 still missed the playoff, and got beaten by most playoff bound teams that year. Not to mention the big beat down by the Steelers in Foxboro - something that never happened with Brady at the helm.

As for the 3 -1 record, people tend to forget that Jimmy got hurt soon after. He also got hurt and lost for the season when he started his first full season with SF. Tom's durability and toughness are so underrated. With him, the margin of victory is probably going to be higher and more comfortable. That's what a good QB can do for you. Just wish him well and see how the new non-Brady season will transpire.

Don’t blame us for Tompa Boy he tried to trademark the term.

The defense in 08 was kinda awful for a variety of reasons. Might have been one of the worst in the league in fact. That imo had just as much to do with the blowout loss to Pitt and missing the playoffs as the downgrade at QB was. But take Belichick away from this team and add an average coach and we’d most likely be closer to a 6 win team than 11. No question about it.

As for JG I agree about his durability that was the biggest problem I had with him. But if he stayed healthy I can’t see why the team couldn’t make the playoffs and make a deep playoff run if Brady wasn’t available.
 

Simpelton

In the Starting Line-Up
One thing is for sure. It is Bill roster building mistakes and poor drafting the last few years that lead to a retooling not Brady performance

I feel like I need to point out that every move that doesn't work is not a "mistake."

Bill Belichick has had this team in a championship mode for literally 20 years. That's supposed to be literally impossible in the cap era. In fact one of the primary reasons the cap era exists is to supposedly make what Belichick has accomplished functionally impossible.

be did it anyway.

Nobody makes zero mistakes but in order to accomplish that, even with elite QB play as a given, you need to make far less mistakes than anyone else and keep making fewer mistakes. Harping on a handful of decisions that could have gone better and calling them a true litany of errors is insulting, and just highlights the entitled nature of Patriots fans. We've literally forgotten how bad it can really be for a fanbase.

We all knew that it was ending with Brady at some point. I've been saying for years that Brady is probably going to play for a couple years for another franchise, the same way Manning did. It's just the way Belichick is, he'd rather walk away a year early than a year late, and he likes to keep his options open. So this was inevitable and it's a testament` to Brady's insane skill that he managed to push that time back as far as he did.

That said, Belichick's thought process is pretty clear, and the fact is that the Tom Brady that played in 2019 isn't going to be as difficult to replace as, say, 2016 Tom Brady. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Sooner or later we were going to have to try to continue the Dynasty without Tom Brady under center. Someday happened to come this year. That's literally all there is to it.
 

Simpelton

In the Starting Line-Up
Here’s my opinion. Brady and Belichick were coach and QB for 20 years. This is the list of the people who were a coach QB tandem for 20 years or more

1. Tom Brady and Bill Belichick
2. There is no 2.

The length they stayed together is ultimately more significant what took them apart
What took them apart was the fact that Bill Belichick was always going to have a longer career at HC than Brady as QB. Anyone who was paying attention knew that the two would eventually part ways, and when they did, it would probably be at Bill's instigation.

Even with their legendary relationship, it's still a coach and GM having to assign a dollar value to Brady's production and figure out when the best time was to begin the transition. A separation was inevitable and the inevitable happened to occur this year.

Average for coach-QB relationships is less than 4 years. They held together for 20. That's insane. Nothing in the cap era has even come close, even other great QBs like Brees and Manning usually change coaches and even teams in the middle of their careers.

People are upset that something inevitable happened and are trying to find a reason to blame people for it. It's disgusting, but it's understandable and very human.
 

n6249c

PatsFans.com Supporter
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Obviously there was a franchise pre-2000 but Brady made them the Patriots. The aura, the mystique, the opposing player likening seeing Gillette on the horizon of route 1 to the Deathstar.
You are mistaking the agent for the conjurer.

Belichick is the architect of the aura and mystique. Brady flawlessly delivered what Belichick conjured up. The combination was the Deathstar. But make no mistake about the trepidation that facing Belichick causes for opposing teams.
 

sb1

Pro Bowl Player
Obviously there was a franchise pre-2000 but Brady made them the Patriots. The aura, the mystique, the opposing player likening seeing Gillette on the horizon of route 1 to the Deathstar.

The aura and mystique is Belichick's.

Also it was Drew Bledsoe with Parcells that turned this team from the Patsies into the Patriots.
 

203Pat

In the Starting Line-Up
You are mistaking the agent for the conjurer.

Belichick is the architect of the aura and mystique. Brady flawlessly delivered what Belichick conjured up. The combination was the Deathstar. But make no mistake about the trepidation that facing Belichick causes for opposing teams.
They both had a big part in it but in the biggest moments it just came down to Brady getting it done. The first super bowl Brady led them down the field to get in position to win. Against Seattle and Baltimore in 2014 he led them back from double digit deficits twice in each game from what I remember. The Falcons super bowl was Brady getting it done with everyone knowing they would have to pass their way back into it.

Don't get me wrong I think Bill is the greatest coach of all time but if you put a gun to my head and asked who was more responsible I would say Brady.
 

sb1

Pro Bowl Player
You are mistaking the agent for the conjurer.

Belichick is the architect of the aura and mystique. Brady flawlessly delivered what Belichick conjured up. The combination was the Deathstar. But make no mistake about the trepidation that facing Belichick causes for opposing teams.

Yep. No fan of another team has ever told me they were worried about their team playing Brady that week. Heard that about Peyton Manning many times but never Brady.

Belichick was a different story - he was the guy that was intimidating to them.
 

PatsWSB47

Pro Bowl Player
Was Brady dominant in SB36? He got the “mvp” there. He was great in the 4th quarter in XLIX and the comeback but before that not so much. Dominant is wire to wire. Like Young in SB29.
That final drive is what makes Brady Brady. Those moments are why he's the GOAT. Dominant wire to wire is your definition.
 

sb1

Pro Bowl Player
That final drive is what makes Brady Brady. Those moments are why he's the GOAT. Dominant wire to wire is your definition.

I agree with that. Just made an observation that it's funny the only dominant (wire to wire) performance Brady ever had in a SB was in a loss.
 
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