OT - Celtics to trade #1 overall pick?

[Doctor DDS]

Pierce was a very good player who played a very long time. At his peak he was probably around the 10th best player in the league and he was at his peak for several years. Whereas Hondo was first team all NBA multiple times plus was always considered an exceptional defensive player. McHale subjugated his game for Bird and the good of the team but at his peak he was a much better player than Pierce. Cowens was as well (though admittedly his peak was short) I have Pierce somewhere in the James Worthy/Dominique Wilkins all time player range. Heck of a career, a great addition to any team but clearly a couple notches below the all time greats.

 

[Ring 6]

He belongs right around 5 I think. McHale is ahead of him because he's possibly the best low post player in history.

No way he can be ahead of
Bird
Russell
Havlicek
Cousy
Mchale

So top 5 is out.

Cowens
DJ
Jones

Would be ahead of pierce to me.
It's 2 of him, white, sharman and heinsohn rounding out the top 10.

 

[rochrist]

No way he can be ahead of
Bird
Russell
Havlicek
Cousy
Mchale

So top 5 is out.

Cowens
DJ
Jones

Would be ahead of pierce to me.
It's 2 of him, white, sharman and heinsohn rounding out the top 10.

Cowens was great, but his heart had him playing way beyond his talent. I would never put him in the Cs top 5. Jones was also great, but Pierce out shines him in every category other than rings and it's hard to put that on Pierce considering the team Jones was playing on. 11,000 more points.

 

[Ring 6]

Cowens was great, but his heart had him playing way beyond his talent. I would never put him in the Cs top 5. Jones was also great, but Pierce out shines him in every category other than rings and it's hard to put that on Pierce considering the team Jones was playing on. 11,000 more points.

Heart is part of "talent" and I have cowens just outside the top5 actually.

Sam jones was an integral part of 10 championships. Well just a young contributor to the first couple but a stud for the last 7.
I don't really put too much emphasis on stat accumulation and certainly not as much as I put on winning.

But everyone has their own opinion and criteria in questions like this.

 

[Urgent]

No way he can be ahead of
Bird
Russell
Havlicek
Cousy
Mchale

So top 5 is out.

Cowens
DJ
Jones

Would be ahead of pierce to me.
It's 2 of him, white, sharman and heinsohn rounding out the top 10.

I'll play. (And it's pretty cool that the Celtics are relevant again!)

Pierce had a terrific career, and deserves to have his place in the rafters with his peers.
However, if I was picking a team, I would go with McHale over Pierce. Pierce was consistent for a lot longer than McHale, and over his career was a more prolific scorer. But in the mid-80's McHale was unstoppable on offense, and shut-down on defense. He shot over 60% two years in a row. That's nuts. He was voted defensive player of the year. Pierce never shot above 50%. Pierce just shot a lot more than McHale. McHale shortened his career when he broke his foot in the middle of the 1987 season and completed the season anyway.

I didn't see Cousy play, but as the floor general of the winningest dynasty in the NBA, I would probably go with Cousy over Pierce as well.

 

[Ring 6]

I'll play. (And it's pretty cool that the Celtics are relevant again!)

Pierce had a terrific career, and deserves to have his place in the rafters with his peers.
However, if I was picking a team, I would go with McHale over Pierce. Pierce was consistent for a lot longer than McHale, and over his career was a more prolific scorer. But in the mid-80's McHale was unstoppable on offense, and shut-down on defense. He shot over 60% two years in a row. That's nuts. He was voted defensive player of the year. Pierce never shot above 50%. Pierce just shot a lot more than McHale. McHale shortened his career when he broke his foot in the middle of the 1987 season and completed the season anyway.

I didn't see Cousy play, but as the floor general of the winningest dynasty in the NBA, I would probably go with Cousy over Pierce as well.

A relevant stat. Pierces post season FG% was 42.3%.

 

[borg]

but Pierce out shines him (Cowens) in every category other than rings

Oh really?

Rebounds per game (career-regular season)
Cowens .... 13.6
Pierce......... 5.6

Assists per game (career-regular season)
Cowens ......3.8
Pierce .........3.5

Scoring per game (career-playoffs)
Cowens.......18.9
Pierce.........18.7

Rebounds per game (career-playoffs)
Cowens.......14.4
Pierce..........5.8

Assists per game (career-playoffs)
Cowens........3.7
Pierce..........3.4

All star games started
Cowens.......4
Pierce.........0

 

[rochrist]

Oh really?

Rebounds per game (career-regular season)
Cowens .... 13.6
Pierce......... 5.6

Assists per game (career-regular season)
Cowens ......3.8
Pierce .........3.5

Scoring per game (career-playoffs)
Cowens.......18.9
Pierce.........18.7

Rebounds per game (career-playoffs)
Cowens.......14.4
Pierce..........5.8

Assists per game (career-playoffs)
Cowens........3.7
Pierce..........3.4

All star games started
Cowens.......4
Pierce.........0

Postseason games
Cowens......89
Pierce........170

Points
Cowens.....13,516
Pierce.......26,397

All NBA
Cowens......3
Pierce........4

All Star appearances total
Cowens.....8
Pierce.......10

Finals MVPs
Cowens....0
Pierce.......1

Games Played
Cowens.....766
Pierce......1343

 

[Deus Irae]

Are people really being foolish enough to base their full takes on numbers from eras that are decades apart?

 

[borg]

Postseason games
Cowens......89
Pierce........170

Points
Cowens.....13,516
Pierce.......26,397

All NBA
Cowens......3
Pierce........4

All Star appearances total
Cowens.....8
Pierce.......10

Finals MVPs
Cowens....0
Pierce.......1

Games Played
Cowens.....766
Pierce......1343

No surprise you'd wheel out career totals......it's easy and requires little thought.
Using your logic, Pierce is far superior to Bill Russell, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Isaiah Thomas (Detroit), etc etc etc etc etc etc.

You must have Tim Wakefield in the HOF

 

[rochrist]

No surprise you'd wheel out career totals......it's easy and requires little thought.
Using your logic, Pierce is far superior to Bill Russell, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Isaiah Thomas (Detroit), etc etc etc etc etc etc.

You must have Tim Wakefield in the HOF

All the ones you 'wheeled out' were career totals too. And for that matter, what idiot compares rebounding averages for a center against a SF.

And no, I don't have Tim Wakefield in the hall of fame, but I guarantee you Pierce will be there.

 

[borg]

All the ones you 'wheeled out' were career totals too.

Are you really as obtuse as you seem.
Yes...... I "wheeled" out legends such as Bill Russell, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Isaiah Thomas ....all who played significantly fewer seasons and therefore had lesser accumulated stats than your binky Paul Pierce to illustrate how irrelevant career totals are. But since that went over your head.....

And for that matter, what idiot compares rebounding averages for a center against a SF.

Oh Obtuse one.... I bet you were puffing your chest out while making the ignorant declaration "but Pierce out shines him (Cowens) in every category other than rings"
Do you know what the word "every" means?
I'll let you get back to your stat counting

 

[captain stone]

Well Bradley was going to be commanding 20m+ next year with and also being a bit injury prone. And I would much rather have Hayward on the roster... even if you had to waive 2 guys that barely played in the NBA.

I can understand your Bradley sentiment but as far as making space for Hayward I am not to worried about that.

I detect a certain sarcasm here. Especially the Zeller reference.

bradley only had one year left on his deal. he was gone either way. smart rozier crowder and some of the tresure chest of picks will be used in dannys next trade. bradley made perfect sense.

I wasn't aware that Bradley would be making that much money next season. If he is, then I can understand Danny's willingness to part with him. But why did he sign him to that kind of contract in the first place?

I too would rather have Hayward on the roster than just about anybody else already on the Celtics.

I liked Zeller, probably more than most here did. I think he could've had a role here this coming season. Besides Horford, Zizic & Marcus Morris, they have Absolute Zero bodies who maybe can rebound & defend the low post with anything even remotely resembling consistency. And rim protection? Fuhgeddaboudit.

I hope that Danny does indeed have another trade up his sleeve, if for no other reason than to at least balance his roster, which currently consists of 6 SF-onlys, 3 PF/Cs, and 3 Guards (2 of whom can't shoot if their lives depended on it). And please don't bother to mention either Kadeem Allen or Jabari Bird; those 2 wastes do not belong on any roster with championship aspirations, not now and not ever.

 

[captain stone]

Bird
Russell
Havlicek
McHale
Cowens
Cousy
Parish
Jones

All before Pierce, no question in my mind. I'd look seriously at White, Heinsohn, Archibald and Johnson, too.

I wouldn't place Parish ahead of Pierce.

My 1st-team All-Celtics:
Russell
Bird
Havlicek
Cousy
McHale

2nd-team:
Pierce
Sam Jones
Cowens
Heinsohn
Parish, maybe. I'm open to suggestions for #10, but not for the top 9.

 

[rochrist]

I wasn't aware that Bradley would be making that much money next season. If he is, then I can understand his willingness to part with him. But why did he sign him to that kind of contract in the first place?

I liked Zeller, probably more than most here did. I think he could've had a role here this coming season. Besides Horford, Zizic & Marcus Morris, they have Absolute Zero bodies who maybe can rebound & defend the low post with anything even remotely resembling consistency. And rim protection? Fuhgeddaboudit.

You're overlooking Aron Baynes, who was one of the highest ranked defensive centers and rebounders in the league last year, singlehandedly ended Dwight Howard's Laker career in the playoffs a couple of years ago. Caught in a numbers crunch in Detroit. Also Daniel Theis, German League defensive player of the year. There's a video out there of him blocking Zizic on 4 successive putback attempts.

 

[rochrist]

Are you really as obtuse as you seem.
Yes...... I "wheeled" out legends such as Bill Russell, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Isaiah Thomas ....all who played significantly fewer seasons and therefore had lesser accumulated stats than your binky Paul Pierce to illustrate how irrelevant career totals are. But since that went over your head.....





Oh Obtuse one.... I bet you were puffing your chest out while making the ignorant declaration "but Pierce out shines him (Cowens) in every category other than rings"
Do you know what the word "every" means?
I'll let you get back to your stat counting

Willing to bet I saw more games at the old Garden while Russell was playing. Cowens as well.

 

[Deus Irae]

I wouldn't place Parish ahead of Pierce.

I would. Pierce is being wildly overrated in this thread.

 

[captain stone]

You're overlooking Aron Baynes, who was one of the highest ranked defensive centers and rebounders in the league last year, singlehandedly ended Dwight Howard's Laker career in the playoffs a couple of years ago. Caught in a numbers crunch in Detroit. Also Daniel Theis, German League defensive player of the year. There's a video out there of him blocking Zizic on 4 successive putback attempts.

Mea Culpa. I totally forgot about Baynes. I was looking at Wikipedia's overall Celtics page which didn't update his signing (but Wikipedia's 2017-2018 Celtics page does include the Baynes signing). Yeah he'll definitely help on the glass, and for less money than Zeller was due this season, upon further research.

I am completely in the dark about Theis. The only statistic I have read about him listed his height at 6'9. If his weight > 235, then he might be able to help on the boards too. He can't be any worse than Olynyk & especially Jerebko.

 

[deroc5050]

I wasn't aware that Bradley would be making that much money next season. If he is, then I can understand Danny's willingness to part with him. But why did he sign him to that kind of contract in the first place?

I too would rather have Hayward on the roster than just about anybody else already on the Celtics.

I liked Zeller, probably more than most here did. I think he could've had a role here this coming season. Besides Horford, Zizic & Marcus Morris, they have Absolute Zero bodies who maybe can rebound & defend the low post with anything even remotely resembling consistency. And rim protection? Fuhgeddaboudit.

I hope that Danny does indeed have another trade up his sleeve, if for no other reason than to at least balance his roster, which currently consists of 6 SF-onlys, 3 PF/Cs, and 3 Guards (2 of whom can't shoot if their lives depended on it). And please don't bother to mention either Kadeem Allen or Jabari Bird; those 2 wastes do not belong on any roster with championship aspirations, not now and not ever.

Well play to the teams strengths. We have an abundance of wing players this season as opposed to guards last season. IT, Brown, as your guards. Hayward SF SG, Horford PF/C and that leaves the #5 player open for debate. Actually the 3 players we know are starting are Thomas, Hayward and Horford. That leaves PG and C positions up for some debate. IT can play both guard positions and you can always move Hayward to the 2. They really don't have that big guy that can step in and play defense and rebound. I have no idea how Aaron Baines or w/e his name is.. is going to pan out.

 

[deroc5050]

Mea Culpa. I totally forgot about Baynes. I was looking at Wikipedia's overall Celtics page which didn't update his signing (but Wikipedia's 2017-2018 Celtics page does include the Baynes signing). Yeah he'll definitely help on the glass, and for less money than Zeller was due this season, upon further research.

I am completely in the dark about Theis. The only statistic I have read about him listed his height at 6'9. If his weight > 235, then he might be able to help on the boards too. He can't be any worse than Olynyk & especially Jerebko.

From what I saw of Baynes contract situation.. he had a player option for 6.5 m this year with OKC I think.. I think it was OKC anyway he apparently opted out to get paid 2 mil less from the Celtics.

Either I don't understand the contract situations which is a certainty or Baynes over valued his worth and ended up getting paid less. Or he really wanted out of OKC and would rather play somewhere else. But for a guy who was making about 6.5 m a year to opt out and come to the Celtics for 33% less money.. that seems strange.