WA private HS school team has 3 forfeit wins this season

[WaterfallJumper]

The more I read this thread, the more I'm convinced that worry has outweighed the facts. No one has gotten injured playing this team. Many of the players on the team are normal sized. Yet everyone is acting like they're a dangerous killing machine.

Why are you disagreeing with me? I posted articles and videos about the teams that have already played against AM. They did not get hurt. Only one team regretted playing them -- and they STILL didn't get injured.

I have no problem with the parents looking out for their children's welfare. I've said that several times. But your posts in this thread are borderline lunacy.

 

[WaterfallJumper]

Any parents who let their kids play a contact sport are consenting to a certain level of what they are willing to define as acceptable risk.

This case raises the issue of where a line can reasonably be drawn between "acceptable" and "unacceptable" risk.

Forfeiting a game against a team because it has more talent or is better coached than your team is against the spirit of sport...getting whipped by a superior team is part of the growth experience of sports.

But forfeiting a game because the conference in which your child is playing is poorly managed and has allowed a disparity in the core profile of the teams to arise is not against the spirit of sport and is certainly consistent with responsible parenting.

Something is clearly off in this case. The whole point of a Division or Conference is to have teams that are (relatively) evenly matched, not as to talent (which can be coached or found in any kid at random) but as to the height and weight profile of the teams. Sounds like the Conference in which this team is playing has some work to do.

The parents of students on the other teams have a legitimate interest in having the issue addressed in a more productive manner than putting them in a position where they feel they have to forfeit games for the sake of their children's safety.

Perhaps there is another conference in which that larger team can play, where it would get to test itself against its true peer group, i.e., someone "its own size." Or perhaps the conference should put in a height and weight profile for its players.

As the parent of a 13 year old, who's a scrapper but also already had one diagnosed concussion, there's no way I'd let him play any contact sport against a team that belongs in another "division." Therefore, I'm not at all critical of parents who won't let their kids play that team. But, that's a suboptimal way to address the deeper issues.

Thoughtful, nuanced approach. I can't really disagree with you, even though I would tell my son that he has to honor the commitment he made to his team and coach, and play the game. That said, I would also tell him to be smart and to take care of himself. If he felt at any point like he was in actual danger, then I would be proud of him for coming out of the game. If he was just getting whooped, well, that's part of the process of learning what life is like. How we react to adversity is a major part of our development and growth.

 

[mosslost]

Thoughtful, nuanced approach. I can't really disagree with you, even though I would tell my son that he has to honor the commitment he made to his team and coach, and play the game. That said, I would also tell him to be smart and to take care of himself. If he felt at any point like he was in actual danger, then I would be proud of him for coming out of the game. If he was just getting whooped, well, that's part of the process of learning what life is like. How we react to adversity is a major part of our development and growth.

Another poster, not facing and dealing with the real issue. In the scenario outlined in the article, you would be a bad parent if you had your kid "honor the commitment".

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Thoughtful, nuanced approach. I can't really disagree with you, even though I would tell my son that he has to honor the commitment he made to his team and coach, and play the game. That said, I would also tell him to be smart and to take care of himself. If he felt at any point like he was in actual danger, then I would be proud of him for coming out of the game. If he was just getting whooped, well, that's part of the process of learning what life is like. How we react to adversity is a major part of our development and growth.

Thanks for the nice words, but we're going to have to disagree.

Getting your butt kicked by a team of your peers that is better coached or more talented than your team is part of growing up. I've talked my kids through that experience several times, with the conclusion usually being that I'm telling them that "I know you feel like ****, but you're gonna have to suck it up."

Going up against kids who are, across the board, bigger than you and outweigh you by a significant amount, represents a risk that I could never endorse for my 13 year old. I would call it dumb and I would think myself irresponsible for leaving the decision to him as to whether he was at risk of serious injury. As his parent, it's my job to take him off the hook for that decision and make it for him. He might hate my guts at the moment, but I'll know I've done the right thing.

 

[PatriotsReign]

Back in the day people didn't think about the concussion syndrome either. Forfeiting this game was the absolute right decision.

No one that has played them has gotten hurt.

Imagine telling your kid if he wrestled to forfeit a match because you know your kid is 3-12 and the kid he's wrestling is 15-0? Even worse, the last kid that wrestled him broke his collar bone.

In my opinion, you tell that kid he committed to wrestling and so what if you get your arse kicked? So have other kids

 

[PatriotsReign]

Thanks for the nice words, but we're going to have to disagree.

Getting your butt kicked by a team of your peers that is better coached or more talented than your team is part of growing up. I've talked my kids through that experience several times, with the conclusion usually being that I'm telling them that "I know you feel like ****, but you're gonna have to suck it up."

Going up against kids who are, across the board, bigger than you and outweigh you by a significant amount, represents a risk that I could never endorse for my 13 year old. I would call it dumb and I would think myself irresponsible for leaving the decision to him as to whether he was at risk of serious injury. As his parent, it's my job to take him off the hook for that decision and make it for him. He might hate my guts at the moment, but I'll know I've done the right thing.

High school Football teams are in no way supposed to be of equal size and strength. thats only in Pop Warner

I just came from watching a New Hampshire HS football game. One teams linemen must have averaged 40 lbs more per man than the other. One kid faced another that had to outweigh him by 75lbs

That's high school football and if parents now think it's ok to remove their kid due to the size of the guy he'll be facing, that's just wrong.

 

[mosslost]

No one that has played them has gotten hurt.

Imagine telling your kid if he wrestled to forfeit a match because you know your kid is 3-12 and the kid he's wrestling is 15-0? Even worse, the last kid that wrestled him broke his collar bone.

In my opinion, you tell that kid he committed to wrestling and so what if you get your arse kicked? So have other kids

That is probably because they all forfeit

 

[PatriotsReign]

That is probably because they all forfeit

I have never seen a wrestler forfeit a match due to fear of his opposition. And any parent or kid that would consider that as an option, doesn't deserve a spot on the team

I was around a .500 wrestler in high school. I had to wrestle the state champion and I got my arse beat. But I forgot about it the next day because I wasn't expected to win.

 

[MassPats38]

I have never seen a wrestler forfeit a match due to fear of his opposition. And any parent or kid that would consider that as an option, doesn't deserve a spot on the team

I was around a .500 wrestler in high school. I had to wrestle the state champion and I got my arse beat. But I forgot about it the next day because I wasn't expected to win.

I agree.

If a forfeit is considered okay, then what is the cutoff weight/strength/ability differential that makes it okay to simply not show up? Do you forfeit the games you clearly will lose, and then play the teams you can beat? If you watched When the Game Stands Tall, should De La Salle have forfeited to Long Beach Polytechnic because they were a bigger school with a significant size advantage? What is the lesson on personal pride and team pride when you simply fold?

This appears to be the roster for the Washington school. It appears to have 4 big boys on the team playing the line. A roster of 42 players. I played on a small Catholic school team in MA that played schools 6 to 8 times larger in terms of school size. The team in some years had a roster of 20, with iron man football due to roster size. We had 170 pound defensive ends and linebackers trying to bring down a 240 pound running back on another team. The QB on one of the vocational school opponents could bench press more than any of the defensive linemen. We went .500, and we took some bad thumpings (predictably in some cases) but played every game to win.

If you have a fear of injury, then do not play the sport. It really is that simple, and there is no shame in saying you are not up to the sport. As the aforementioned movie discusses, if a team is too good or out of your league then get it off the schedule. It just seems a slippery slope once you start taking losses instead of showing up to play. Strong linebacker? Forfeit. Receiver too fast to cover? Forfeit. Gonna lose 45-0? Forfeit. Forfeiting when you can field a team is quitting, and I would not want to call myself part of a team that wouldn't even try to win every game (even when the odds were stacked high against that outcome).

 

[Fencer]

No one that has played them has gotten hurt.

Unfortunately, we don't know whether that is true, due to our ignorance about brain injuries.

 

[doesntmatter1]

How are these dominant kids going to receive scholarships etc if they have no one to play? I guess they can scrimmage against themselves all day lol.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

High school Football teams are in no way supposed to be of equal size and strength. thats only in Pop Warner

I just came from watching a New Hampshire HS football game. One teams linemen must have averaged 40 lbs more per man than the other. One kid faced another that had to outweigh him by 75lbs

That's high school football and if parents now think it's ok to remove their kid due to the size of the guy he'll be facing, that's just wrong.

The article doesn't talk about an average of 40 pounds difference, but, rather the coach says "They have 300-pound linemen. And we have sophomores that are weight 210, 220 pounds and starting on varsity. So that's the issue, is the size disparity." That's more than a 40 percent difference, not even "just" 40 pounds.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

As a parent, it's your right to allow your son to line up against a team with that kind of size and, presumably, strength advantage. I would never put my 13 year old in that position, but it's not up to me to tell you what to do.

I do assume, BTW, that you had a son playing in the game you describe.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

How are these dominant kids going to receive scholarships etc if they have no one to play? I guess they can scrimmage against themselves all day lol.

As I said in my first post, this Conference clearly has a problem that has to be resolved.

As an interim step, they could find bigger teams to play. If they're recruiting in a "50 mile radius," there are presumably other schools within 50 or so miles of the school that have a comparable profile.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

No one that has played them has gotten hurt.

Imagine telling your kid if he wrestled to forfeit a match because you know your kid is 3-12 and the kid he's wrestling is 15-0? Even worse, the last kid that wrestled him broke his collar bone.

In my opinion, you tell that kid he committed to wrestling and so what if you get your arse kicked? So have other kids

Two separate issues there.

One, if we have learned anything about head trauma and the NJFL's failure to address it in an adequate manner, the one thing we have learned is that neither you nor I have any way at all of knowing the head trauma that might well have been inflicted on these smaller kids by kids who weigh, as the article describes, 80--90 pounds more than they do. My 13 year old had a diagnosed concussion...diagnosed to some extent because we got him to the doctor because of the increased awareness of the symptoms and risks of head trauma that have resulted from the experience of the NFL...otherwise, we just might have kept him out of school and let him go back to playing rather than have him undergo a neurological exam. The doctors diagnosed a significant concussion and warned us of the possible long term risks if he sustained another concussion with the next 12 months.

Two, my nephew was a highly competitive high school wrestler in California, participating, and doing well, in meets all across the state and in neighboring states. He always competed within his own weight class, so if he was "3--12" and his opponent was "15--0" he just had to go out there and either upset the other guy or get his butt kicked.

Sports are supposed to teach lessons like that to teenagers. He and his parents understood that broken bones or torn muscles were part of the accepted risk, in matches that were fairly matched. In other words, even boxers are aware of the old expression, about not "punching above (or below) your weight."

From your comments, I assume that you are a parent who has raised or is raising one or more teenage boys...

 

[NG Pats Fan]

I have never seen a wrestler forfeit a match due to fear of his opposition. And any parent or kid that would consider that as an option, doesn't deserve a spot on the team

I was around a .500 wrestler in high school. I had to wrestle the state champion and I got my arse beat. But I forgot about it the next day because I wasn't expected to win.

I was a state champion wrestler in mass during high school and wrestled four years in college. I am now a coach for a high school team in Massachusetts. Last year, I had a senior on my team who was the best in New England. During his last home varsity dual meet, his opponent went missing during the time of the match when his weight class was up. My guy got the forfeit, instead of getting to wrestle in his last home match in front of all his family and friends. Found out after the dual meet, his opponent was so scared to wrestle the New England champ, he left the gym and went to the concession stand grabbed a hot dog then hid under the bleachers eating the hot dog until the meet was over. If I were the opposing coach, I would have kicked my wrestler off the team. Not every kid that comes out for the team is a talented athlete, but I expect 100% effort from every kid regardless.

 

[PatriotsReign]

The article doesn't talk about an average of 40 pounds difference, but, rather the coach says "They have 300-pound linemen. And we have sophomores that are weight 210, 220 pounds and starting on varsity. So that's the issue, is the size disparity." That's more than a 40 percent difference, not even "just" 40 pounds.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

As a parent, it's your right to allow your son to line up against a team with that kind of size and, presumably, strength advantage. I would never put my 13 year old in that position, but it's not up to me to tell you what to do.

I do assume, BTW, that you had a son playing in the game you describe.

Whether or not I have a child playing is irrelevant to this discussion

I'm 5'8" and was 175 lbs in HS and I lined up against a guy 6'6" 240 lbs. And I was psyched to play that guy. Fear never crossed my mind

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I was a state champion wrestler in mass during high school and wrestled four years in college. I am now a coach for a high school team in Massachusetts. Last year, I had a senior on my team who was the best in New England. During his last home varsity dual meet, his opponent went missing during the time of the match when his weight class was up. My guy got the forfeit, instead of getting to wrestle in his last home match in front of all his family and friends. Found out after the dual meet, his opponent was so scared to wrestle the New England champ, he left the gym and went to the concession stand grabbed a hot dog then hid under the bleachers eating the hot dog until the meet was over. If I were the opposing coach, I would have kicked my wrestler off the team. Not every kid that comes out for the team is a talented athlete, but I expect 100% effort from every kid regardless.

Well, presumably athletics at the high school level are about education as well as competition. So, I'd want the kid to learn something from this experience, if I were his coach.

So, I think I would have talked to the kid before I kicked him off the team. I'd have tried to understand what was going on that led him to let his team mates down like that. I'd want to be sure that he hadn't been bullied or otherwise intimidated by other students. I'd also want to make sure that there wasn't something seriously wrong in his home life...an abusive parent? sibling?

Then, if it turned out that he just quit because he didn't want to compete against his weight class champ, I would have asked him to face his team mates, explain why he had done what he did and deal with how badly he had let them down, face to face. I'd then leave it up to the captains of the team to make a recommendation to me as to whether they wanted him to remain on the team and I would have accepted that recommendation.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Whether or not I have a child playing is irrelevant to this discussion

I'm 5'8" and was 175 lbs in HS and I lined up against a guy 6'6" 240 lbs. And I was psyched to play that guy. Fear never crossed my mind

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
As the parent of a teenage boy, I simply look at the risks to his long term well-being and my responsibilities as a parent differently. I don't judge you and I would never tell you how to raise your own kid. But, please, if you're not raising a teenage boy yourself, be careful how you judge those of us who are and who have to make dozens of tough decisions in their regard.

 

[PatriotsReign]

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
As the parent of a teenage boy, I simply look at the risks to his long term well-being and my responsibilities as a parent differently. I don't judge you and I would never tell you how to raise your own kid. But, please, if you're not raising a teenage boy yourself, be careful how you judge those of us who are and who have to make dozens of tough decisions in their regard.

My opinion is if you join a sport and allow your kid to join a sport, you accept the risks that go along with that sport.

And if you supported your kid forfeiting a wrestling match because the other kid was too tough, I think you'd make the wrong decision. It's healthier to face ones deepest fears than to run and hide in fear

But then again, I'm 100% against safe spaces too

 

[ewg_gestalt]

I think that having the forfeits on record is actually useful for solving the real long-term problem—a team that skews competitive balance too far (much bigger roster and larger talent pool to draw from). If the teams just took their drubbings and went on with it, it would be much harder to make that case. So having the forfeits helps in the longer term, even if it seems a cop-out in the short term.