Gronk/Edelman vs. Moss/Welker

[AzorianPats]

Here's a question. How does everyone thing Moss/Welker would have fared against that Seattle defense. I have a hard time seeing them duplicate what Gronk/JE did.

Not good, considering Seattle D was much better than that Giants D that SB year. We only put up 14 that game remember?

Plus as much as I loved Moss, he was never going to run a route in the middle of the field.

This offense is made to suit Brady's game better.

 

[AzorianPats]

why are you comparing players that did not have the same supporting case around them?

do you seriously think Gronk and JE11 would have enjoyed the success they have with Maroney and Stallworth and those guys? this is about how good the players are and you cannot evaluate that unless you consider their skill sets with the SAME surrounding cast.

Yes they would have.

 

[TommyD4207]

2007 Maroney was better than 2015 Blount. And 2011 BJGE might have been too.

Stop it. Stop it right now.

 

[Fencer]

Guys are very delusional up here. Put a prime (25ish not 30 yr old)moss with Brady and he goes for 30 tds in a season. Welker at his best was better than Jules at his best imo. Stop the nonsense, yes Welker dropped a SB pass but doesn't take away from the player he was. Give moss and Welker this supporting cast and secondary and there 19-0. And don't forget we were on are way to a loss also until a young man stepped in front of a stupid throw. You can't compare guys when there not given the same weapons around them smh.

I'd say the supporting cast includes the OL. And this year's OL isn't constructed to support deep passes to anybody,

 

[Fencer]

Sammy Morris was really good, and he could do everything. Ran hard, could get the edge, could catch, could block. IMO, our best RB between Dillon 2004 and Ridley 2012. I think he would've wrestled a lot of carries from Maroney down the stretch in 2007 if he was healthy.

When I think of Sammy Morris blocking I think of a play very early in 2008.

 

[Fencer]

Anyone who says they'd prefer Gronkowski and JE11... tell me how you would defend against Moss/Welker/Lafell/Dion Lewis/Blount/Amendola.

With which OL?

 

[The Brandon Five]

I wonder how Welker would do with the new rules that make it impossible for the Patriots to ever run a pick play?

 

[AzorianPats]

So i dont get it now. All of a sudden Gaffney and Stallworth were stiffs? I felt like those guys served a purpose on that team...

 

[ivanvamp]

I think this is a great topic and any offense with 2007 Welker and 2007 Moss, or 2015 Edelman and 2015 Gronkowski would be in terrific shape. Welker and Edelman are obviously more similar to each other than are Moss and Gronk.

Moss obviously, in his prime, was just insanely good. Ridiculously good. But I think Gronk just gives the team more versatility. His run blocking is phenomenal, obviously. He can run any route. Even though he's not as fast as Moss, he's obviously not going to be covered by a small, fast cornerback. So he can outrun anyone who covers him. And if they cover him with a smaller, faster guy, he just overpowers him.

Long story short, I'd prefer Edelman and Gronk.

 

[glm]

Not good, considering Seattle D was much better than that Giants D that SB year. We only put up 14 that game remember?

Plus as much as I loved Moss, he was never going to run a route in the middle of the field.

This offense is made to suit Brady's game better.

Moss never ran a route in the middle of the field? My God I'm sick of this myth. Randy went over the middle plenty of times, for example, during the Colts game in 2007 Randy went over the middle, did a crazy one handed catch, then held on to the ball while he got the crapped knocked out of him.

 

[Bruins29]

Moss never ran a route in the middle of the field? My God I'm sick of this myth. Randy went over the middle plenty of times, for example, during the Colts game in 2007 Randy went over the middle, did a crazy one handed catch, then held on to the ball while he got the crapped knocked out of him.

GLM you are going to have to accept that people are going to completely rewrite history,to make it fit the agenda they want.

It is what it is.

 

[glm]

People are really underrating randy in this thread. I love Gronk to death, but Randy is the most dangerous weapon in NFL history. His inclusion on two different teams resulted in both teams becoming the highest scoring offenses ever and went on to have a combined 31-1 record.

Also, judging pass catchers by SB wins is rediculous. They aren't quarterbacks or Head Coaches. They're pass catchers. That's like trying to judge a running back or an offensive lineman by how many rings they've won.

 

[glm]

GLM you are going to have to accept that people are going to completely rewrite history,to make it fit the agenda they want.

It is what it is.

Pats fans isn't allowing me to post my rant so I'll give the cliff notes version:

F ESPN
F "sports writers"
Sadly you're right

 

[rochrist]

People are really underrating randy in this thread. I love Gronk to death, but Randy is the most dangerous weapon in NFL history. His inclusion on two different teams resulted in both teams becoming the highest scoring offenses ever and went on to have a combined 31-1 record.

Also, judging pass catchers by SB wins is rediculous. They aren't quarterbacks or Head Coaches. They're pass catchers. That's like trying to judge a running back or an offensive lineman by how many rings they've won.

If you can judge offenses by the number of points they score and make that an arbitrary guidepost, you can do the same thing with SBs. The coach doesn't win the SB, the players do. And neither of them ever won a championship with Moss.

 

[glm]

And neither of them ever won a championship with Moss.

I guess you missed this part of my post:

Also, judging pass catchers by SB wins is rediculous. They aren't quarterbacks or Head Coaches. They're pass catchers. That's like trying to judge a running back or an offensive lineman by how many rings they've won.

Using your logic we can say Antowain Smith was a better running back than Barry Sanders.

Or Nate Solder is a better tackle than Anthony Munoz.

Is it Randy's fault that their kicker in 1998 (who was perfect on the season) missed the game winning field goal? Is Randy somehow a worse player because the Pats D couldn't stop the Giants on their last drive?

In fact, correct me if I'm mistaken but Randy caught what would've been the game winning touchdown in 2007.

You can't judge pass catchers by how many SB's they've won.

 

[glm]

If you can judge offenses by the number of points they score and make that an arbitrary guidepost,

There is nothing arbitrary about that, it's their main job.

you can do the same thing with SBs. The coach doesn't win the SB, the players do.

Ummmmm buddy, great coaches win championships. Look at BB, Paul Brown, Vince Lombardi, Joe Gibbs, etc. A coach is judged by their ability to win games and ultimately if they can put together a championship winning team. That's why Marty Schottenheimer is viewed as a good coach and not a great one. Coaches have their own set of criteria that we judge them by, such as how many championships they've won. That set of criteria does not apply to pass catchers.

 

[rochrist]

I guess you missed this part of my post:



Using your logic we can say Antowain Smith was a better running back than Barry Sanders.

Or Nate Solder is a better tackle than Anthony Munoz.

Is it Randy's fault that their kicker in 1998 (who was perfect on the season) missed the game winning field goal? Is Randy somehow a worse player because the Pats D couldn't stop the Giants D on their last drive?

In fact, correct me if I'm mistaken but Randy caught what would've been the game winning touchdown in 2007.

You can't judge pass catchers by how many SB's they've won.

My point is, if you're gonna go on and on about what an unstoppable force, what an ultimate weapon Moss was, then yeah, it is fair to note that nobody during his time in the league (including at least arguably, the best of the Pats teams) could find a way to win a championship with him.

Great, I'll give you that he's the greates WR to ever play (not sure that's true, but whatever). I'll still take Gronk because I think he's the greatest TE to ever play, and a weapon that can do more things and be responsible for more parts of the teams sucess. I fully believe that if Gronk had been healthy, he'd already have 2 SB rings.

 

[chasa]

11 and 87

if we had gotten moss in his prime maybe its different but we didn't.

Moss took too many plays off, and welker had to many Big time drops.

In the end the only thing that matters is Superbowls, and we have 1 with minitron and gronk.

 

[rochrist]

There is nothing arbitrary about that, it's their main job. Ummmmm buddy, great coaches win championships. Look at BB, Paul Brown, Vince Lombardi, Joe Gibbs, etc. A coach is judged by their ability to win games and ultimately if they can put together a championship winning team. That's why Marty Schottenheimer is viewed as a good coach and not a great one. Coaches have their own set of criteria that we judge them by, such as how many championships they've won. That set of criteria does not apply to pass catchers.

What an idiotic thing to say. Coaches don't win anything. If course coaches are an indispensable part of winning. So is QB. So is an offense. So is a defense. WTH? How did Joe Gibbs do his second time around?
So you seriously think Tom Coughlin is a BETTER coach then BB? If not, why not? He's beaten him in the SB twice in two tries.

 

[glm]

My point is, if you're gonna go on and on about what an unstoppable force, what an ultimate weapon Moss was, then yeah, it is fair to note that nobody during his time in the league (including at least arguably, the best of the Pats teams) could find a way to win a championship with him.

Great, I'll give you that he's the greates WR to ever play (not sure that's true, but whatever). I'll still take Gronk because I think he's the greatest TE to ever play, and a weapon that can do more things and be responsible for more parts of the teams sucess. I fully believe that if Gronk had been healthy, he'd already have 2 SB rings.

I don't have a problem taking Gronk/Edelman, they're both beastly. It's when people use SB wins to judge pass catchers, or if people say things that aren't true (for example, somebody in this thread tried to use the old "Moss never goes over the middle" myth).

But again, I have no problem with people choosing Gronk/Edelman. Personally I'd choose Moss just ever so slightly over Gronk, and I'll take Jules over Wes so I'm personally torn over the topic lol