Why don't Pats make a play for big time receiver?

[The_Riddler]

The part that keeps getting left out in this debate is that McCourty is more valuable than Dez is. I know that it's hard for the fantasy-obsessed types to wrap their heads around, but defense really matters and McCourty is one of the few pieces that's propping up this injury-decimated D. He's part of the solution, and can absolutely be one of the best players on a Super Bowl-winning team. He's that good.

If I was running the Patriots and the Cowboys offered me Dez for McCourty, straight up, I wouldn't even have to think too hard before I turned down that deal.

What is the love fest with McCourty? Yes he is a decent safety, but where are the picks? Where are the bone jarring, ball impacting hits? Where is the impact? I saw Matt Elam making plays last night impacting the football game. I am sorry I don't see those same types of plays from DMac.

 

[BradyFTW!]

What is the love fest with McCourty? Yes he is a decent safety, but where are the picks? Where are bone jarring ball impacting hits? I saw Matt Elam making plays last night I am sorry I don't see those same types of plays from DMac.

Because bone-crushing hits aren't what makes McCourty good. Having a ton of range, always being in position, and being able to line up and play man coverage in a pinch are.

 

[Bella*chick]

Something about Thompkins worries me though he just has a Justin Francis vibe to him for me a rookie UDFA that people get all excited for and have all these lofty expectations for and then he doesn’t even make the team in year two. Other players like – Sterling Moore, Kyle Love and others who do really well they even start for us and then you see them cut and never find work again and you can’t help but wonder is it just the right place right time or are they actually a player that could develop into something.

Isn't Sterling Moore a Dallas Cowboy? I don't watch many of their games but I swear every time I have one on the guy is making a play. I always think of that game against the Ravens whenever I see him play.

 

[The_Riddler]

Because bone-crushing hits aren't what makes McCourty good. Having a ton of range, always being in position, and being able to line up and play man coverage in a pinch are.

And this alone makes him a great safety? To me this makes him a decent to good safety. If I'm passing on Demaryius Thomas, I need to see Ed Reed back there, I need to see Earl Thomas or Eric Berry. That's fine that DMac has some range and can tackle, a lot of other AFC safeties can do the same thing. Impact a football game, force a fumble, pick off a pass, something. DMac should have a lot more picks than he does if his range is that good.

 

[supafly]

I don't think that 1st part is true tbh. He was willing to spend big money on Moss and Welker. He also tried to make a move for Anquan Boldin who would have been big money. Spent big money on Ocho as well. Don't forget Larry Fitzgerald piggybacked the cardinals to a superbowl and very nearly a win.

First, tell us how many teams utilize 20%+ of their entire salary cap on both franchise QBs and franchise WRs like Larry Fitzgerald/Calvin Johnson, etc.

Then tell us how many of those teams have been winning or at least making the playoffs on a consistent basis. My guess is that you're going to have a very small limited group of teams, if you can actually find ANY at all. There may be one, possibly two, but it's not the smart move in the salary cap era--particularly the flat cap era. The closest I can recall would be Roddy White and Matt Ryan, and even those 2 haven't taken up anything close to the kinds of numbers we're talking about here. On top of that, Atlanta hasn't exactly been the kind of consistent winning playoff team that you'd really want to represent your city.

We will see how teams like DEN (Manning/D.Thomas), DET (Stafford/Johnson), and possibly DAL (Romo/Bryant) attempt to combat this problem, but it's not surprising to me that GB allowed Greg Jennings to walk away, nor is it surprising that PIT allowed Mike Wallace to walk away. It's almost impossible to field those kinds of pairings with salaries that are both going to cost 13-15-17 million+.

Compaing Wes Welker or Randy Moss, both 9 million or so for a very small period of time with enormous contracts such as Larry Fitzgerald/Calvin Johnson who are 15 million isn't a good comparison at all. And Ochocinco? Really, LOL? Chad Johnson didn't cost any more than Danny Amendola does right now. That's a horrible comparison. The guys that the OP is comparing are making 15+ million, not 5 or 6 million.

The bottom line is that you can't field a consistently successful NFL team when you pay both your QB and WR salaries that are north of the high 20's/early 30 million mark. That usually isn't going to allow you to have consistent success like we've seen for 12+ yrs now.

 

[supafly]

And this alone makes him a great safety? To me this makes him a decent to good safety. If I'm passing on Demaryius Thomas, I need to see Ed Reed back there, I need to see Earl Thomas or Eric Berry.

I think you're a couple/few yrs behind with your comparison of Ed Reed to any of Earl Thomas, Eric Berry, or Devin McCourty. No one gives a damn about Ed Reed anymore, as based on his past off-season and the fact that he's completely sucked for both the Texans and Jets this season.

I agree that McCourty can be perceived as a bit overrated here, but his versatility to play both CB/S, his progression over the course of his career here, and his excellent leadership and football smarts likely place him in the top half of NFL free safeties. He should certainly be retained.

 

[Sciz]

What is the love fest with McCourty? Yes he is a decent safety, but where are the picks? Where are the bone jarring, ball impacting hits? Where is the impact? I saw Matt Elam making plays last night impacting the football game. I am sorry I don't see those same types of plays from DMac.

For a safety to make a play on the ball, the quarterback needs to throw the ball to a place where he thinks the safety can't get to it but he actually can. Quarterbacks aren't doing that. They're showing McCourty a ton of respect, which is what he deserves as the free safety with probably the second best range in the NFL. You could count the number of times McCourty has been beaten in deep coverage this season on the hand of the guy I used to buy popcorn from, and he only had three fingers.

Earl Thomas, right now, is the best safety in the NFL. Eric Berry isn't a free safety. He's been playing well this season, but most of that hasn't come as a deep coverage guy. The difference between McCourty right now and Ed Reed back in the day is that Reed was better at baiting the QB into bad throws. Reed would try to make a guy look open when he wasn't. McCourty just goes and makes that guy not open.

 

[supafly]

Isn't Sterling Moore a Dallas Cowboy? I don't watch many of their games but I swear every time I have one on the guy is making a play. I always think of that game against the Ravens whenever I see him play.

Yes, Sterling Moore just made a nice INT for Dallas a couple of days ago on Sunday afternoon.

He is obviously limited in talent/speed, but no one knows how much Belichick thought he may grow on the practice squad. It seems as though many tend to forget that Dallas snatched him off of our practice squad, as they think that we cut him.

I don't think he'll ever be a "great" player, he may never even be considered "good," but I also think that he's one of those end of roster guys who may have the potential to continue to progress under the right circumstances. No one knows if Moore can overcome his limitations of speed/talent and actually do that or not.

I actually liked him better playing the position of safety, rather than cornerback, but I could be wrong. I know that DAL brought him in at halftime to try and shut down PIT TE Heath Miller, and he was able to do that very nicely.

 

[RayClay]

Isn't Sterling Moore a Dallas Cowboy? I don't watch many of their games but I swear every time I have one on the guy is making a play. I always think of that game against the Ravens whenever I see him play.

I wanted to pick him up.

 

[BradyFTW!]

And this alone makes him a great safety? To me this makes him a decent to good safety. If I'm passing on Demaryius Thomas, I need to see Ed Reed back there, I need to see Earl Thomas or Eric Berry. That's fine that DMac has some range and can tackle, a lot of other AFC safeties can do the same thing. Impact a football game, force a fumble, pick off a pass, something. DMac should have a lot more picks than he does if his range is that good.

Why should DMac have a lot more picks? QBs don't throw anywhere near him.

Also not really getting the Demaryius Thomas comparison, either. He was taken 5 picks before McCourty. And McCourty is better than Reed, and almost as good as Thomas.

 

[varjao]

T.J. Houshmansvlersthiusnguhas is still playing?

 

[The_Riddler]

Why should DMac have a lot more picks? QBs don't throw anywhere near him.

Also not really getting the Demaryius Thomas comparison, either. He was taken 5 picks before McCourty. And McCourty is better than Reed, and almost as good as Thomas.

First of all I mentioned Ed Reed, meaning the Ed Reed of yester year, not the current Ed Reed. Secondly, I bring up Thomas because in that draft, we dealt the rights to Thomas to Denver and in turn for that deal, we ended up with DMac and Taylor Price. I am pretty sure if you polled the NFL fans across the Nation, the vast majority would say that we **** the bed with that decision.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

Dobson has shown the ability to stretch the field in games he has played in. Not always making the big plays...but was beating his man on a consistent basis not too long ago.

Only his 1st year..he is only going to get better (when healthy)

 

[Sciz]

First of all I mentioned Ed Reed, meaning the Ed Reed of yester year, not the current Ed Reed. Secondly, I bring up Thomas because in that draft, we dealt the rights to Thomas to Denver and in turn for that deal, we ended up with DMac and Taylor Price. I am pretty sure if you polled the NFL fans across the Nation, the vast majority would say that we **** the bed with that decision.

The average NFL fan across the nation is also a complete idiot when it comes to evaluating safety play.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Yes, Sterling Moore just made a nice INT for Dallas a couple of days ago on Sunday afternoon.

He is obviously limited in talent/speed, but no one knows how much Belichick thought he may grow on the practice squad. It seems as though many tend to forget that Dallas snatched him off of our practice squad, as they think that we cut him.

I don't think he'll ever be a "great" player, he may never even be considered "good," but I also think that he's one of those end of roster guys who may have the potential to continue to progress under the right circumstances. No one knows if Moore can overcome his limitations of speed/talent and actually do that or not.

I actually liked him better playing the position of safety, rather than cornerback, but I could be wrong. I know that DAL brought him in at halftime to try and shut down PIT TE Heath Miller, and he was able to do that very nicely.

3 passes defended too. It looks like he won a starting job Sunday after that terrible defense let Flynn torch them, good for him. You and me were his biggest fans when he was on the Pats. I hope he continues the playmaking.

 

[Brady6]

Missing the point, we could have had both DThomas and Gronk or Dez and Gronk, can you even imagine what that would have been like for opposing defenses ?

I am not missing anything;if the Patriots had selected Thomas at #22 they would not have had a pick until #44 and Gronkowski would have been gone, so they would have gotten Thomas and not McCourty or Gronkowski, not seeing the upside here.

The 22nd overall pick netted the team:

• McCourty
• Gronkowski
• Price
• Hernandez

Hernandez might be a murdering moron but he was an all pro player.

Let me ask you this if Gronkowski wasn’t injured and Hernandez was not in jail would we be even having this conversation? I personally would rather have McCourty, Gronkowski and Hernandez over Thomas, Tebow and Decker if we were just talking about them on the field only.

What is important to understand is draft picks are people and human beings are complicated it is not an exact science there is no process in which to determine if a player is going to break his forearm or a player is going to become addicted to angel dust and lose his mind and take out one his friends in a paranoid fit (allegedly). Sure if Belichick knew that was going to happen **** yeah he would have taken Thomas, all I can tell you is in 2014 if there is a murderer or a tight end with feeble forearms you should send Belichick an email and give him a heads up because clearly you have some insight that would have saved this team a lot of trouble.

 

[Brady6]

Yes, Sterling Moore just made a nice INT for Dallas a couple of days ago on Sunday afternoon.

He is obviously limited in talent/speed, but no one knows how much Belichick thought he may grow on the practice squad. It seems as though many tend to forget that Dallas snatched him off of our practice squad, as they think that we cut him.

I don't think he'll ever be a "great" player, he may never even be considered "good," but I also think that he's one of those end of roster guys who may have the potential to continue to progress under the right circumstances. No one knows if Moore can overcome his limitations of speed/talent and actually do that or not.

I actually liked him better playing the position of safety, rather than cornerback, but I could be wrong. I know that DAL brought him in at halftime to try and shut down PIT TE Heath Miller, and he was able to do that very nicely.

I am not knocking Moore I just am cautiously optimistic about players such as Thompkins. I think Belichick rewards hard work and early on that will benefit players like Thompkins, Francis, Moore, etc. but then the more talented young players pickup on that philosophy and they begin putting in that same level of work and overtake the UDFA types. It is great coaching from Belichick because it shows the young players that he doesn’t give a rats ass how talented they are they have to put in the work or they won’t see the field.

I am not sure that is the case with Thompkins he is a little different because of his baggage but I do recall posters projecting 10 sacks out of Francis, pro bowl seasons out of Moore and calling Kyle Love the next Wilfork. A lot of times players go undrafted because they lack talent, usually that is the case actually sometimes you will get a player with serious concerns like Vontaze Burfict and like I said maybe Thompkins is one of them, but I am not sold on him especially considering he is catching 45% of his targeted passes and was a game day inactive (CD) about 3 weeks ago.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

I think the OP should back up a step here. The question really shouldn't be why we don't get a big time receiver so much as it should be what is the value of a big time receiver? Considering 5 of the top 10 receivers this season (including the top 4) are on teams without winning records, what exactly is the value of a big-time receiver when it comes to winning football games?

Calvin Johnson has had 1 winning season so far in 7 seasons. Larry Fitzgerald has been on 3 winning teams (including this year) out of 10 seasons. Andre Johnson has been on 3 winning teams out of 11 seasons.

Dez Bryant has yet to play for a winning team, and when he performs well, his team loses (4-12 in games he gains over 100 yards or scores 2 TDs). Josh Gordon just completed perhaps the greatest 4-game stretch for a wide receiver ever (36 catches for 774 yards, 21.5 YPC and 5 TDs, plus a 34-yard run) yet Cleveland lost all 4 games. In fact, Cleveland is 1-6 in games where Gordon gets 100 yards, and 3-2 in games he plays in but doesn't hit 100 yards.

There are also lots of good wide receivers on teams with winning records as well, don't get me wrong. But most of those guys don't come with massive contracts that destroy the team's cap. Here are the numbers for the other 5 receivers in the top 10 on winning teams:

5. DeSean Jackson: 5 years, $47M, $15M guaranteed
6. A.J. Green: rookie contract 4 years, $19.7M fully guaranteed
7. Alshon Jeffrey: rookie contract 4 years, $4.4M, $2.7 guaranteed
8. Demaryius Thomas: rookie contract 5 years, $12.2M, $9.4 guaranteed
9. Brandon Marshall: 5 years, $50M, $24M guaranteed

3 rookie deals for great value, 2 solid vets that are market value (in the top 20 deals based on average per year) but not at the very top like the top 5 below:

- Calvin Johnson: 7 years, $132M, $60M guaranteed
- Larry Fitzgerald: 8 years, $120M, $50M guaranteed

These next ones came during a DOWN year for contracts, yet teams still overspent and so far, haven't gotten great returns:

- Percy Harvin: 6 years, $67M, $25M guaranteed
- Mike Wallace: 5 years, $60M, $25M guaranteed
- Dwayne Bowe: 5 years, $56M, $26M guaranteed

This season, 4 of those 5 top contracts are contending for a potential play-off spot, but I don't know if any of them are really offering value. Fitzgerald leads the team in receptions but is second in yards. Harvin hasn't played much at all. Wallace is second on the team in receptions and yards to Brian Hartline, who also signed a 5-year deal for $31M, or basically half of what Wallace did. Dwayne Bowe isn't in the top 50 receivers in receptions or yards, and is second on the team in receptions to a running back.

In fact, if you look at the top 20 WR average salaries, only 9 are on winning teams (including Harvin, Wallace, and Bowe, who haven't really contributed near the levels thought when signed).

This is all just a long-winded way of saying that teams can win without big time receivers, especially if they don't have to carry the big-time contracts that often come with them. There just isn't a lot of value in spending $10M+ on a WR, and I don't know why the OP is so eager to see us do so. When you're trying to imitate the ******* Detroit Lions or Arizona Cardinals, well, I really don't know what to say...

 

[Deus Irae]

Didn't the Patriots sign Michael Jenkins and Donald Jones?


What more do people want?

 

[supafly]

3 passes defended too. It looks like he won a starting job Sunday after that terrible defense let Flynn torch them, good for him. You and me were his biggest fans when he was on the Pats. I hope he continues the playmaking.

I am not knocking Moore I just am cautiously optimistic about players such as Thompkins. I think Belichick rewards hard work and early on that will benefit players like Thompkins, Francis, Moore, etc. but then the more talented young players pickup on that philosophy and they begin putting in that same level of work and overtake the UDFA types. It is great coaching from Belichick because it shows the young players that he doesn’t give a rats ass how talented they are they have to put in the work or they won’t see the field.

Just for the record, my biggest defense of Sterling Moore came after his rookie season, as I thought that he deserved another chance at a longer look.

Unfortunately, it seemed that he was pretty mediocre at best, although he did know the system, had some experience here, and could have possibly been groomed to succeed a bit more, with potential improvement. That is why he was likely put on the practice squad (or one of the reasons).

I'm certainly not claiming him to be some great gem of a player, and I was definitely proven wrong when he came back for his 2nd season--aside from the nice job that he did helping to limit L.Fitzgerald with safety help. My only real defense in him was wanting to see him stay on for a longer look, and unfortunately he wasn't able to take advantage of that properly due to his limitations in talent.

I'd still be interested in seeing him as an end of roster guy, but that will likely never happen. If he ever expects to make a name for himself, he'll have to rise to the challenges. That said, he has done some nice things from time to time w/ Dallas.