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Ebner now ahead of T. Wilson on the depth chart

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Reiss seems to think that he is more important to our special teams than most give him credit for, and while that may be true the fact remains that he should actually be seeing on field reps in real defensive situations if chosen that highly. At this point it appears that once again not only have we failed in the 2nd/3rd round again, but have failed yet again in the secondary.

He did have 2 special teams tackles against the Panthers which was great, the flipside of that is he now has 2 tackles total this season so I find it hard to believe that he is that important. Fletcher, White and Ebner lead the team in special teams tackles and they required one sixth round draft total. I get that you’re looking for value in the kid and I appreciate that fact unfortunately this guy seems to be doing his best Jermaine Cunningham second year impression.
 
I don't think Wilson is a disappointment he was just over drafted by the Patriots. If he was drafted where he graded out (Priority FA) then he would be right where he should be (at the bottom of the depth chart).

Yeahh uh.. so he isn't disappointing because he is performing at the level of where he SHOULD have been drafted?

That would make sense were he drafted there. He was drafted as a 2nd round pick.
 
Yeahh uh.. so he isn't disappointing because he is performing at the level of where he SHOULD have been drafted?

That would make sense were he drafted there. He was drafted as a 2nd round pick.

I was disappointed when they drafted him, he was an extreme reach and has since settled at his level. I don't put 2nd round expectations on him because he is not a 2nd round talent.
 
Solder was not a future pick he spent one season as the third tackle and then became a full starter in season two.

My point is simply that the Patriots did not draft Solder with the expectation that he was going to start at OT in Week 1.
 
Re: Re: Ebner now ahead of T. Wilson on the depth chart

Can you expand on that? He had a good play in coverage on Ginn (I believe) in the game, but he didn't do anything to write home about other than that.

He was defending the point of attack (on time, but behind the tackle) on run plays numerous times. He had some mistakes, but none stand out like McCourty being slow to the outside for a td...


Could it just be a matchup issue where they thought Ebner would be better against a mobile QB like Newton?


See: Defend the run. The only big runs came via Cam creating. He was drafted first overall for a reason.






Yessir. Has Harmon been bad? Nope. Do I regret the Pats drafting him? Nope. He's done about what you'd expect from a rookie at his draft position. But to chalk him up as some kind of success right, when all he's done is not stand out for the worse, now is silly.

He's done more than "not stand out for the worse," he's been in the right position "around the ball," on numerous occasions, and that's just from watching the tv feed (last game). I'd love someone with all 22 to chime in with how he looked.

Those of you unhappy with the pass rush need to also remember cam's athleticism. The few times he used his legs, good things happened for Carolina. He also threw well, being bailed out by McCourty playing defense on Ryan (wtf! Should have been picked!) on the only real bad ball off the top of my head.

Talib should not have been singled up with Smith. That is not his match up. He uses his strength to knock larger bodies off their routes and has straight line speed to run with them. Quick twitch is his kryptonite. While Steve Smith is not the player he was, he is still a clear #1 receiver in the NFL, and he plays with an edge. He can be volatile, on the field and in the locker room. Dennard would have been a better match up.

If wes goes this weekend, I would be shocked to see Talib on him. He would be an infinitely better match up on either Thomas or the te (NO anyone?). You would think Collins would be a match up on the te, but he seems to have fallen out of the rotation. Dennard (healthy that is...)would be a decent match up on Wes in my mind. Either that or throw him on Decker and mug Wes off the line (maybe Zo telling a cb to sit because we would play spikes there isn't so crazy. cracked me up on Tuesday either way) with Arrington assuming responsibility after the bump.
 
At best, you garbled that, as I gather you sensed.

2 am posts tend to do that with me at times

Yes, "garbled" is a fair assessment. I certainly did sense it, but ran with it anyway...as I'm about to attempt to do again

If your point is that you think BB tends to go boom-or-bust with 2nd-round picks, I'm not going to argue. I'd further say that he seems to believe all picks are risky, so one might as well get more of them to take a chance on, which sounds a little different from the cause-effect chain you were describing.

I think I'm just wondering if he feels that there is a decent percentage of draft picks failing in general, so lately he has tended to take more to try and improve those odds by taking a higher volume of picks?

If you take into account the fact that they've often been in round two where there is a boom or bust factor involved altogether (I recently recall someone stating that it was a bit more than a 50% success rate for a certain number of years playing, but I'm unsure of the specifics re: the criteria) it may not be quite as surprising that he has failed so miserably.

The fact remains that he's been rather awful at 2nd round selections, and maybe it's nothing more than coincidence or bad drafting/scouting methods. I'm just trying to think of some other possibilities, although there's a chance I am grasping at straws in an attempt to defend him on some level too, so keep that in mind.

I suppose we'll never know the answer and I'd probably lean towards bad scouting and drafting, bad luck, etc vs a reasonable explanation. I'm really just thinking out loud in some ways. I'm not sure if it's a reasonable explanation on any level whatsoever or not.
 
My point is simply that the Patriots did not draft Solder with the expectation that he was going to start at OT in Week 1.

Yes, sir. I understood you, and I do think it may have been more of a pick meant to blend him in a bit more than other players just due to the "raw" talent factor where he had a nice upside, but was also very rough around the edges too.

When you factor that in with the players ahead of him on the depth chart in Mayo, Hightower, Spikes, and even Fletcher, it's certainly a possibility that Belichick may have had some ST and rotational reps in mind for year one. Again, I wonder if the lack of garbage time along with the severity of the injuries on defense didn't maybe alter this plan a bit? I'm assuming that Belichick likely wanted to see a bit more of him than he has had the chance to thus far.

Of course it's also a possibility that he just hasn't latched on the way they had hoped that he would too. We may not know until next season when he'll likely get a lot more reps. I'm not even going to attempt to assess his performance until about halfway through next year, obviously because we haven't seen him too much. That may not be his fault with the talent in front of him, and the situation at hand.
 
Well, it is good to see that people are so excited that Nate Ebner is making progress.
 
I don't think the track record supports the claim that BB has been awful at 2nd-round picks. I looked up three "Top 100" rankings of NFL players, and Gronk ranked 25, 25, 26. And that takes injuries into account; in three rankings a year ago, he was 10, 12, 21. That alone makes BB's track record at least average. Light and Branch were enough to make his 2nd-round track record early in his tenure above average.

Vollmer is generally regarded as a top 5 right tackle, and in many cases as a top 2; let's go with top 5 because of his injury history. Injuries aside, he's an above-average OT period, whose team happens to use him on the right side.

Notwithstanding all the busts, those guys and a few lesser successes are enough to make the track record decent.
 
Well, it is good to see that people are so excited that Nate Ebner is making progress.

While common sense would certainly point to some progress, one can also wonder how much the lack of depth has to do with it too.

In other words, I highly doubt that Belichick felt comfortable putting Sergio Brown out there, but we didn't really have any other options. The lack of development with Tavon Wilson, along with injuries to Adrian Wilson and Steve Gregory certain come into play there too.

We'll have to see how much progress Nate Ebner is really making, and while hopeful--I'd also think that it's too early to be able to tell at the moment.
 
I don't think the track record supports the claim that BB has been awful at 2nd-round picks.

I think the general fan may disagree here, but that certainly doesn't make them right or your opinion wrong since people tend to see things differently; however, from a period of 2006 thru 2012 we have the following 2nd round picks (good, solid, proven picks are underlined):

2006--Chad Jackson
2007--no selections
2008--Terrance Wheatley
2009--Patrick Chung, Ron Brace, Darius Butler, Sebastian Vollmer
2010--Rob Gronkowski, Jermaine Cunningham, Brandon Spikes
2011--Ras-I-Dowling, Shane Vereen
2012--Tavon Wilson

That gives us a current total of 12 second round selections, with 3 "solid" picks who have contributed on a consistent basis. That's obviously a success rate of 25%, and a failure rate of 75%. I didn't underline or consider Vereen a "solid, proven, consistent" player since he has not really contributed thus far in his 3rd year. Obviously we would hope to revisit this at the end of the year and see Vereen as a proven pick.

If you take it one round further into the 3rd round, you'd have the following selections since 2006:

2006--David Thomas
2007--no selections
2008--Shawn Crable, Kevin O'Connell
2009--Brandon Tate, Tyrone McKenzie
2010--Taylor Price
2011--Steven Ridley, Ryan Mallett
2012--Jake Bequette

The third round gives us a total of 9 selections, with only 1 solid, proven contributor on a consistent basis. The choices of David Thomas/Ryan Mallett could also be combined for a half-point apiece under their circumstances, although that is just my opinion. It's also possible to give them 1.5 out of 2, but I wouldn't agree with seeing them both as "proven, solid, consistent" players who have contributed.

All in all, the 3rd round gives us a total of 2/9 success rate of 22%, with a failure rate of 78%.

If we add up the 2nd + 3rd round selections in the past 7 years, we'd get a total of 21 picks. There have arguably been 5/21 picks that have contributed on a consistent basis, or a success rate of 23.8%. That is obviously significantly lower than most other NFL teams.
 
You may have to erase Ridley as a success if he keeps fumbling. Looking at that list makes me wonder why we even bother using our 3rd round picks at all. Sheesh. Use 3rds to trade up or down at all cost next year.
 
You may have to erase Ridley as a success if he keeps fumbling. Looking at that list makes me wonder why we even bother using our 3rd round picks at all. Sheesh. Use 3rds to trade up or down at all cost next year.

I still think that Ridley is a pretty good RB. Hopefully we won't have more than maybe ONE more fumble throughout the year from him, and it won't be for awhile because if he does have another one soon our running game will suffer with him on the bench.

Yes, he's had some fumbles of course, but so does every NFL running back. Look at some of Adrian Peterson's best years:

2008--1760 yds rushing (9 fumbles)
2009--1383 yds rushing (7 fumbles)

That shows SIXTEEN fumbles in a two year span, yet he still rushed for over 3,000 yards in that two year stretch.





If we look at Ridley's fumbles, they are:

2011- 1 fumble
2012- 4 fumbles
2013- 3 fumbles


As we know, Bill Belichick doesn't have the patience for mistakes though, so Ridley will likely see the bench if he fumbles again within the next couple of games. I'm thinking that one more fumble through the end of the season is his limit.
 
Yes, he's had some fumbles of course, but so does every NFL running back. Look at some of Adrian Peterson's best years:

2008--1760 yds rushing (9 fumbles)
2009--1383 yds rushing (7 fumbles)

That shows SIXTEEN fumbles in a two year span, yet he still rushed for over 3,000 yards in that two year stretch.

Just to take it one step further, if we compare the following 2 players (assuming that we all think that Peterson, Lynch, and Charles are 3 of the best RB's in the league every year) with Peterson, we'll see much of the same:

--Lynch (6 of 9 years with at least three or more fumbles) high of 5

--Charles (4 of 6 years with at least three or more fumbles) high of 5
 
I still think that Ridley is a pretty good RB. Hopefully we won't have more than maybe ONE more fumble throughout the year from him, and it won't be for awhile because if he does have another one soon our running game will suffer with him on the bench.

Yes, he's had some fumbles of course, but so does every NFL running back. Look at some of Adrian Peterson's best years:

2008--1760 yds rushing (9 fumbles)
2009--1383 yds rushing (7 fumbles)

That shows SIXTEEN fumbles in a two year span, yet he still rushed for over 3,000 yards in that two year stretch.





If we look at Ridley's fumbles, they are:

2011- 1 fumble
2012- 4 fumbles
2013- 3 fumbles


As we know, Bill Belichick doesn't have the patience for mistakes though, so Ridley will likely see the bench if he fumbles again within the next couple of games. I'm thinking that one more fumble through the end of the season is his limit.

I agree with you on the Ridley pick I actually think he is one of the best draft picks outside of the first round in the Belichick era. If you look at Ridley over his first 3 seasons against some of the great running backs he stacks up quite well with his 508 carries, 2266 rushing yards, 4.5 yards per attempt and 20 rushing touchdowns.
 
Don't wanto to defend the Wilson pick, would be nice to hear from the experts how Ebner fared in the snaps he was on the field. Couldn't his overtaking be caused by a better development in the last year? I'd gladly take it if Ebner will perform like a 2nd rounder and Wilson like a 6th rounder.

With McCourty at FS, Bill & Patricia probably felt that more size was needed at SS
vs a run-heavy Carolina offense.
 
With McCourty at FS, Bill & Patricia probably felt that more size was needed at SS
vs a run-heavy Carolina offense.

I wish that was the case but per their scouting reports Tavon Wilson is actually the biggest of any of our safeties granted it’s only by a few pounds.

  1. Gregory is 5’11 200 Lbs.
  2. Harmon is 6’0 196 Lbs.
  3. Ebner is 6’0 202 Lbs.
  4. Wilson is 6’0 205 Lbs.
 
I think the general fan may disagree here, but that certainly doesn't make them right or your opinion wrong since people tend to see things differently; however, from a period of 2006 thru 2012 we have the following 2nd round picks (good, solid, proven picks are underlined):

2006--Chad Jackson
2007--no selections
2008--Terrance Wheatley
2009--Patrick Chung, Ron Brace, Darius Butler, Sebastian Vollmer
2010--Rob Gronkowski, Jermaine Cunningham, Brandon Spikes
2011--Ras-I-Dowling, Shane Vereen
2012--Tavon Wilson

That gives us a current total of 12 second round selections, with 3 "solid" picks who have contributed on a consistent basis. That's obviously a success rate of 25%, and a failure rate of 75%. I didn't underline or consider Vereen a "solid, proven, consistent" player since he has not really contributed thus far in his 3rd year. Obviously we would hope to revisit this at the end of the year and see Vereen as a proven pick.

If you take it one round further into the 3rd round, you'd have the following selections since 2006:

2006--David Thomas
2007--no selections
2008--Shawn Crable, Kevin O'Connell
2009--Brandon Tate, Tyrone McKenzie
2010--Taylor Price
2011--Steven Ridley, Ryan Mallett
2012--Jake Bequette

The third round gives us a total of 9 selections, with only 1 solid, proven contributor on a consistent basis. The choices of David Thomas/Ryan Mallett could also be combined for a half-point apiece under their circumstances, although that is just my opinion. It's also possible to give them 1.5 out of 2, but I wouldn't agree with seeing them both as "proven, solid, consistent" players who have contributed.

All in all, the 3rd round gives us a total of 2/9 success rate of 22%, with a failure rate of 78%.

If we add up the 2nd + 3rd round selections in the past 7 years, we'd get a total of 21 picks. There have arguably been 5/21 picks that have contributed on a consistent basis, or a success rate of 23.8%. That is obviously significantly lower than most other NFL teams.

I have two issues with this perspective.

1) It's not about hit percentage; it's about total number of hits. The whole reason why the Patriots trade down and stockpile draft picks is because it enables them to get contributing players even with misses.

If the Pats can come out of the second round with a solid NFL starter, then that's a success. If, in order to get there, they traded back a year to stockpile extra draft ammo and some of it ended up busting, then I really don't care. I'd rather see the team have three picks and hit on two of them then go 1 for 1, although your evaluation would seem to prefer the latter.

2) I think the general argument is that the Pats have done well with mid-round picks since Pioli left. I think we can all agree that the last few years under Pioli produced some really bad draft classes, which left a talent gap that plagued the team in 2009, especially, and also somewhat in 2010. Take out 2006-2008, however, and you have a much better picture for the Patriots' draft picks:

Second round:
2009

Chung: whiff
Brace: whiff
Butler: whiff on the Patriots, has become a legit starting CB elsewhere
Vollmer: hit
2010
Gronk: grand slam
Cunningham: whiff
Spikes: hit
2011
Dowling: whiff
Vereen: hit. He's shown more than enough to declare that he was a good pick
2012
Wilson: whiff

In short: over the four year span between 2009 and 2012, the second round produced four starters for the Patriots, of which one is an All-Pro caliber player. Any team in the league would take that. You may care that it took 10 picks to produce those four hits, but I certainly don't. That's the Patriots' philosophy. Even if I did care, a 40% hit rate is pretty good, and excellent when one of your hits is Gronk. You could make a very good case that the Patriots have gotten the most productivity out of their second round picks in that span of all NFL teams. And to think that it could have been even better if the team had just been a little more patient with Butler. It was clear to this fan, at least, that he had the talent to get the job done even as a rookie.

Third round
2009

Tate: whiff on the Patriots, decent contributor elsewhere.
McKenzie: whiff - tore his ACL in OTAs, never got to see if he was a good player
2010
Price: whiff
Ridley: hit. Are people seriously saying that he might not be a hit as a third-round pick because he fumbles the ball too much? That's crazy
2012
Bequette: whiff

One hit in four years, and that hit is a fringe Pro Bowl caliber player. I'll take it. It's not amazing or anything, but it's not bad.

Fourth round
2009

Ohrnberger: whiff
2010
Hernandez: hit. I'd even call it a home run, and cringe while doing so.

Hard to evaluate, since the Patriots have made a habit of using their fourth rounders as trade ammo, but one starter in four years is actually pretty good once you're this far down in the draft.
 
Yes he was. He was really, really bad.

Not everyone agreed with that most felt he performed well for a rookie safety and his stats would indicate that as well.

“Wilson’s rookie campaign consisted of four starts in 16 games. He amassed 41 tackles, four interceptions for 87 return yards, two fumble recoveries and six pass deflections. Not bad at all from a production standpoint. Wilson’s cumulative interceptions and fumble recoveries were tops among all rookie safeties.”

Breaking Down Tavon Wilson?s Fit in New England | NEPatriotsDraft.com - 2014 NFL Draft

Breaking Down Tavon Wilson's Rookie Year with the New England Patriots | Bleacher Report

“If you ask me, this selection was a steal.

Wilson played in all 16 games for the Patriots this year and became a reliable part in New England’s secondary. Granted, Wilson had his share of mental lapses early on on the season and was one of the key factors to New England’s defense giving up so many big plays, but really settled in as a solid defender.”
Patriots Draft Pick Review: Tavon Wilson | NEPatriotsDraft.com - 2014 NFL Draft
 
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