Does Welker want out of New England?

[borg]

A top 5wr but he clashes with the te's? When is the last time he has played with both on the field at the same time for a full game.

I'm going to let the front office make these tough decisions(thank God) but I'll end it with this. I think if this team could stay healthy, get better on defense and keep improving in the running game they could be unstoppable next season.

Losses

Arizona. Hernandez leaves game early bad ankle sprain? Welker 95 yards

Baltimore. No Hernandez, refs,def. Welker 142 yds

Seattle. No Hernandez, good game by both sides, blown coverage. Welker 138 yds

SF. No Gronkowski, Lloyd and Hernadez top performers, almost had it. 56 yds Welker.

What did he actually do to clash with the skill set here since every loss there wasn't two elite tight ends to clash with? How would he perform with a fully healthy compliment of players and maybe add a deep threat from a very deep draft for wideouts? An improved defense that will be one season and another training camp better?

How about a better plan B. TEs get hurt and BB overloaded the position to compensate for the inevitable TE injury. Unfortunately, he neglected building NFL caliber depth at WR....so his plan B was anemic......Only 3 competent pass catchers in the playoffs 1) a #2 WR with zero after the catch play making skills 2) a hybrid TE forced into a pure WR role 3) and an undersized slot receiver forced to be the teams field stretching offense. When you think about this grouping, it's no wonder the offense came up small vs Baltimore. Two out of position players and a receiver that is not championship team quality.

 

[borg]

Having a healthy Gronk is a good start. He's like a silver dollar when it comes to nickel.

Gronk played vs Baltimore in week 3 to the tune of 2 catches and 21 yds. His effect on the running game was negligible as well....77 yds total and 3 yds/run. Yes Gronk no doubt adds tremendously to the offense, but he doesn't get Balt out of the nickel and he didn't neutralize Balt. control of the LOS.

 

[patriotsdynasty12189]

Were not getting Larry Fitzgerald just stop.

 

[voluntarysaftey]

Regarding the WW to SF speculation (and setting aside the cap feasibility), I think SF would be hitting a home run with a WW/Davis/Crabtree nucleus.

think of the space that would be created with 3 premium passing targets that operate in different plains.

I do find it interesting that many here believe he is not worthy of more than $8 mill. What is he, top 3 in catches and yds over the past 5 years.....for $8 mill??? That seems the bargain of the century

Agree & Disagree.
Agree that at 8 million, Welker's production is a bargain
But I think you kind of nailed it with your SF statements -- in NE's case, their top 3 receiving options all work on the same plain -- short, middle of field.
So even though Welker at 8 million is a bargain. The dropoff from Welker to Edelmen would be smaller than the upgrade from Branch to good 2nd outside receiver (or as mentioned in my prior post the upgrade in a defensive position).

 

[Patriot Missile]

How about a better plan B. TEs get hurt and BB overloaded the position to compensate for the inevitable TE injury. Unfortunately, he neglected building NFL caliber depth at WR....so his plan B was anemic......Only 3 competent pass catchers in the playoffs 1) a #2 WR with zero after the catch play making skills 2) a hybrid TE forced into a pure WR role 3) and an undersized slot receiver forced to be the teams field stretching offense. When you think about this grouping, it's no wonder the offense came up small vs Baltimore. Two out of position players and a receiver that is not championship team quality.

It's not for trying. Everyone here expected better production out of Lloyd than we got. His Denver and St Louis Ties to McDaniels would make you think he could of been electric here. Still 74 for 900+ yards is nothing to scoff at. That's fantastic numbers for your 2nd receiver right there. Not a big red zone threat though. They'll get it down.

 

[tonyto3690]

This is the sort of nonsense that makes the anti-Welker people look idiotic to outside fanbases reading this.

Please explain to me how what I said was wrong.


Jets - Cromartie on Branch, Revis on Welker intermingled with a lot of zone flooding the middle of the field. Neither Branch nor Welker could win past 15 yards and we lost.

Giants - Giants bumped Welker at the line with a safety or linebacker, rushed four, and put 8 players in the box and had the 3 linebackers + safety / 2 linebackers + two safeties just back off into a zone if it was a pass. They flooded the middle and we had no one that could win outside the numbers or behind their middle zone to fault them for it. Instead we had Branch/Hernandez/Welker getting lit up across the middle, hearing footsteps and dropping passes.

Ravens - Played a lot of base and heavy nickel and stayed at home against the run. Brady was forced to audible to pass on 2nd and short, 3rd and short as our blockers weren't able to consistently win against the Ravens heavy package DL. They kept Lewis and Ellerby at home in the middle the entire game. Guess what? We weren't able to force them to play a light package to defend the pass because they could just play a lot of cover 1 with zone up front. Why? Because Lloyd and Welker weren't able to win outside the numbers, 15-30 yards downfield.


Give us Fitzgerald in those games and it opens up the defense, forces them to play the pass and not load 8 guys in the box. Our run game suddenly is back to regular season form and moving the chains at will and Hernandez suddenly goes from "struggling to keep my head on" to beating linebackers 1 vs 1 in coverage and being an actual threat instead of worrying about running into Lewis on a zone.

Were not getting Larry Fitzgerald just stop.

Excellent job stating the obvious. That is not the point of this argument. If you're not going to even read what is being said, do not butt in half way through trying to correct people.

Cripes I should have said Moss from 2004. I thought it was pretty freaking obvious we're not getting Fitzgerald.

 

[borg]

Agree & Disagree.
Agree that at 8 million, Welker's production is a bargain
But I think you kind of nailed it with your SF statements -- in NE's case, their top 3 receiving options all work on the same plain -- short, middle of field.
So even though Welker at 8 million is a bargain. The dropoff from Welker to Edelmen would be smaller than the upgrade from Branch to good 2nd outside receiver (or as mentioned in my prior post the upgrade in a defensive position).

Absolutely. How many small ball passing options does Brady need. They have the short field routes covered from every pass catching position. Fans need to get over the mentality that NE needs to replace 100 catches if WW is let go. First. NE needs to build the running game up more and create a mentality that they can win 3rd and short on the ground. This shot gun pass happy mentality that failed dramatically as Brady struggled for a 53% completion clip vs Balt needs readjusting. In the Boldin thread, one poster argues that Boldin is inferior to Welker based on production alone, with no context to the offenses each team runs. Boldin was a a 100 catch guy on a pass happy offense at Ariz his early years but now he is in a different role on a pass second team with a less accurate QB that prefers more vertical shots. Boldin averaged 17.3 yds/catch and 95 yds and 1 TD in the playoffs ....that not only has value but forces defenses to be concerned with a broader playing field. The small ball philosophy needs a makeover and NE could use a healthy dose of spreading the ball around to different parts of the field....short and long. Well tooled Ds have the Pats # at the most inopportune time.

 

[JPsPats]

Could anyone see Welker going to the Packers? Jennings wants like top 5 money and green bay won't give him that. Maybe they give welker 7 mill a year on a 3 year deal and he replaces jennings as more of an underneath guy (like in new england) while jones, nelson, and cobb stretch the field.

 

[makoute]

Could anyone see Welker going to the Packers? Jennings wants like top 5 money and green bay won't give him that. Maybe they give welker 7 mill a year on a 3 year deal and he replaces jennings as more of an underneath guy (like in new england) while jones, nelson, and cobb stretch the field.

I doubt the packers will have money for Welker, or they probably would have just signed Jennings with that cash.

 

[tonyto3690]

Stacked box?????

The Ravens were in nickel vs. NE for all but 3 plays. Four DL neutralized the NE run game to the point that NE averaged 3 yds/carry, attempted zero play actions on 3rd down, and forced Brady to chuck the ball 54 times with a 53% completion rate. Brady lived in shot gun because Balt owned the LOS despite being in nickel and the only effective 3rd down run NE had (3 attempts in 14 3rd down plays) was on a gimmick direct snap to Vereen.

The box may have looked stacked because of the Balt. utter domination by the front 4...and it may have looked stacked because Brady was in ultimate small ball mode so everyone was close to the LOS.

If NE wants to consistently put up points against these strong playoff caliber defenses, they need to present an effective running game that forces teams out of nickel which opens the passing lanes. Until they do, expect the same. The advantage of the new pistol offense and these young mobile QBs is their mere presence forces defenses to stay more at home on the line. When one of these run first QBs actually has an accurate arm (even better an accurate cannon), the offensive possibilities multiply. Baltimore played base vs the mobile Kaepernick and he passed for eight 20+ yd completions using 3 receivers.
Of course we know Brady is not capable of striking fear via his wheels, so what does NE need to do to garnish more respect for their run game. The status quo personnel was insufficient. Reiss seems to believe a lead blocking RB is the answer. I would like a beast interior lineman.......why not a combination of both.

Do you understand what stacking the box means?

You can be in a dime formation and stack the box. Personnel has absolutely nothing to do with it. The number of players in between the tackles is what dictates if it's stacked or not. The Ravens played a heavy DL and had their linebackers close to the LOS because there was absolutely no fear at all of Welker beating them deep. And even when he does 1 out of 20 tries, his break away speed isn't fast enough to even take advantage.

Welker's an elite player and does his job better than anyone else, but it's a job that is already assigned to Hernandez and Gronkowski and is redundant. Having an outside the numbers threat who can pick up 20 yard chunks would be much more valuable to our scheme.

That or just spend the money on some real defensive talent- we don't need a top 3 offense all time. We need a defense who can win a game when our offense doesn't score 50 points.

 

[supafly]

When you think about this grouping, it's no wonder the offense came up small vs Baltimore. Two out of position players and a receiver that is not championship team quality.

Let's not overreact to the "inability" of the 3rd ranked NFL offense of all-time a few Sundays ago. Before the season started, the majority were stating that this offense could be unstoppable. Now in hindsight, it was a glaring mistake in your mind?


We've seen this team beat just about anyone with just about any personnel, in just about every situation possible...I agree that we need to have more options for bigger plays downfield, but we have seen them do a lot more with a lot less too. I would argue that many other factors besides these listed were the 'real' cause of why the team lost, none of which had anything to do with the WR reasons that you've listed above.


Some off the top of my head:

--Defense giving up 3 late(r) game TD's in the last 20 min in a big time setting...again (despite the offense's ability to score 30+ as usual, they were still up 6 points on the scoreboard, so it didn't matter if it was 6-0 or 36-30, the fact remains that Tom Brady was 67-0 when leading at the half in Foxborough. Bill Belichick was 72-1 when leading at the half in Foxborough)

--Dropped pass by Welker on the first drive of the 3rd quarter that would have made it 16-7 or even 20-7 and given us some great momentum

--The wind factor which caused them to punt 3x inside of what normally is FG range

--Injuries to Gronkowski, Talib, and Chandler Jones...all very key

--Back to back turnovers from Ridley getting knocked out and Ellerbee intercepting a tipped pass at the LOS when the offense was moving the ball very well

--Being forced to put Marquise Cole on Anquan Boldin (could be argued at the most important factor of the entire game)

--Brady's brainfart at the end of the half that costed at least one play to the EZ

--The inability to establish a running game vs the BAL nickel defense, which is once again inexcusable

 

[supafly]

It also should be noted that in all seasons where Brady/Welker were together only ONE (2010 loss to the NYJ) failed to produce at least an AFCCG appearance. Many have set offensive records on some level to boot.

To answer the OP's question, No. I don't believe Welker necessarily "wants out of NE."

I believe that he would much rather stay with what appears to be his best friend and continue to be productive and have a shot at the SB every year. Who wouldn't?

I just think he wants the team to pony up a "fair" offer of market value, and that may be the obvious deciding factor in his release/failure to re-sign.

Hopefully this radio report is either sheer speculation or just posturing from the Welker camp.

 

[Triumph]

It's not for trying. Everyone here expected better production out of Lloyd than we got. His Denver and St Louis Ties to McDaniels would make you think he could of been electric here. Still 74 for 900+ yards is nothing to scoff at. That's fantastic numbers for your 2nd receiver right there. Not a big red zone threat though. They'll get it down.

Right now, Lloyd is a younger Branch who likes to fall down.

Id like to see the Pats draft a WR with a high pick and take a flyer on a low pick assuming NE gains some compensatory picks. I like Slater, hes a special teams ace, but brings nothing to the passing game. Shouldnt the Pats do better there?

 

[supafly]

Right now, Lloyd is a younger Branch who likes to fall down.

Id like to see the Pats draft a WR with a high pick and take a flyer on a low pick assuming NE gains some compensatory picks. I like Slater, hes a special teams ace, but brings nothing to the passing game. Shouldnt the Pats do better there?

I'm with you on doubling up in the draft, but I don't think we're going to get any comp picks this year. Even after the suggested draft pick(s), I'd still like to see a WR brought in via FA too. Belichick addressed the position a lot last year, unfortunately no one really seemed to stick. Hopefully that is different this offseason.

I think Slater is just a ST only player who doesn't really have much of a position except when we're planning a very rare once a season shot downfield, so I honestly don't even count him.

The position could certainly use some upgrading, but I also don't think it's the reason for our woes as some have suggested either.

 

[Froob]

^Same here about Slater. Shouldn't even be mentioned when talking about wide receivers. More likely to see Ninkovitch come out there and catch one than Slater.

 

[tonyto3690]

It also should be noted that in all seasons where Brady/Welker were together only ONE (2010 loss to the NYJ) failed to produce at least an AFCCG appearance. Many have set offensive records on some level to boot.

Again, can you please try listening to what we are saying.

No one is saying Welker is a detriment to the team. Having a guy catch 120 balls and 1400 yards or whatever wasn't the problem. The problem is that if we don't have Gronkowski to stretch defenses down the seam, our entire offense bogs down when relying on Welker.

Even if we won the AFCCG by 50 points every year since 2007 it wouldn't matter if we lost in the SB because of our inability to stretch defenses out. We would still need to address the issue, so this whole moronic statement of "WELL WE GOT TO THE AFCCG" is a moot point.

That's the same exact logic Jets fans for years clamored how Sanchez was a great quarterback.

Let Welker walk. Use that money to bring back Edelman and another guy who can win outside the numbers and use the rest of that cap money on improving our defense. That would be a much better allocation of team resources.

 

[supafly]

Again, can you please try listening to what we are saying.

No one is saying Welker is a detriment to the team. Having a guy catch 120 balls and 1400 yards or whatever wasn't the problem. The problem is that if we don't have Gronkowski to stretch defenses down the seam, our entire offense bogs down when relying on Welker.

Even if we won the AFCCG by 50 points every year since 2007 it wouldn't matter if we lost in the SB because of our inability to stretch defenses out. We would still need to address the issue, so this whole moronic statement of "WELL WE GOT TO THE AFCCG" is a moot point.

That's the same exact logic Jets fans for years clamored how Sanchez was a great quarterback.

Let Welker walk. Use that money to bring back Edelman and another guy who can win outside the numbers and use the rest of that cap money on improving our defense. That would be a much better allocation of team resources.

I don't even know where to start with this....

Your worry is that "when we don't have Gronkowski?" He has missed one 5 game stretch in 3 entire seasons. Are you pre-planning for him to be constantly injured in the future? If so, that's a much bigger problem in itself.

You compare us to NYJ fans for pointing out that we've been to the AFCCG every single time but once (2010) when BOTH Brady and Welker are together?

That's laughable...they've been together and to the AFCCG in 3 of 4 seasons, besides when one of them was missing in 2008 (Brady) and 2009 (Welker). That's a 75% chance of getting to the very last game of the AFC conference with the two of them together. They should have at least one SB out of the 2 NYG games, if not 2. Freak helmet catches and 4th quarter comebacks don't have anything to do with Wes Welker and the fact that he helped to get them there in a very big way.

If you don't think that's impressive or that constantly being one of the last 2-4 remaining teams in the entire NFL is good enough while still building for the future, then I don't know what to tell you, but for most of us that opportunity is incredible, and putting up records on offense almost every year proves the point even more.

 

[supafly]

Again, can you please try listening to what we are saying.

No one is saying Welker is a detriment to the team. Having a guy catch 120 balls and 1400 yards or whatever wasn't the problem. The problem is that if we don't have Gronkowski to stretch defenses down the seam, our entire offense bogs down when relying on Welker.

That's a problem that can be addressed by improving upon the WR position, not dramatically taking away from it in order to try and improve it...

This isn't some weird addition by subtraction thing. The problems with the lack of a downfield WR aren't going to magically be solved if many other aspects of the offense now are failing. Believe me, when the offense is lacking in some areas and those all-important drive sustaining catches are now missing, less points will be scored. That is automatically taking away from our strongest point on the team.

Let Welker walk. Use that money to bring back Edelman and another guy who can win outside the numbers and use the rest of that cap money on improving our defense. That would be a much better allocation of team resources.

I stopped reading at "use that money to bring back Edelman," and I'm a huge Edelman supporter.

Julian Edelman should certainly be retained for his ST role, versatility, continued development as a WR, and mostly cheap cap hit. Bringing back Edelman has nothing at all to do with Wes Welker.

#11 misses every other game. Claiming that he will now somehow be able to take the punishment and get lit up by the oppostion on a consistant basis is just silly, not to mention wishful thinking.

 

[DarrylStingley]

That's a problem that can be addressed by improving upon the WR position, not dramatically taking away from it in order to try and improve it...

This isn't some weird addition by subtraction thing. The problems with the lack of a downfield WR aren't going to magically be solved if many other aspects of the offense now are failing.




I stopped reading at "use that money to bring back Edelman," and I'm a huge Edelman supporter.

Julian Edelman should certainly be retained for his ST role, versatility, continued development as a WR, and mostly cheap cap hit. Bringing back Edelman has nothing at all to do with Wes Welker.

#11 misses every other game. Claiming that he will now somehow be able to take the punishment and get lit up by the oppostion on a consistant basis is just silly, not to mention wishful thinking.

Yup. I love Julian but his style of play is reckless. He is almost certain to get hurt every year. A friend called the precise week when he would go out for the season and as prescient as that was, I wasn't that impressed. Julian is an easy call.

That said, the pats need a perimeter receiver. If Wes takes up so much salary that they can't bring in a perimeter threat, I think I would try to get by with Julian, grok and Aaron in the middle of the field. I would use Shane more in that role, as well.

 

[supafly]

That would be a much better allocation of team resources.

A much better allocation of team resources would be keeping our 2 biggest offensive weapons together in Brady and his security blanket, while signing Welker to a deal that gives him a reasonable cap hit.

In the meantime, Brady and possibly Wilfork can be extended/restructured which will free up even more space with not much downside, aside from taking a bit of a gamble in their late years of their career.

If you look down the entire roster at all of the 2013 Patriots under contract right now, you'll notice even more guys like Fells etc that probably won't be here either, which will free up even more room.

This team has proven itself to be extremely close to winning the SB again, and solidifying the last few pieces is the best bet to getting there, which certainly can be done in many, many ways besides taking away one of the core components.