Does Welker want out of New England?

[voluntarysaftey]

I think an argument could even be made that we don't sign a high priced WR and just start the season with

Gronk/Hernadez
Lloyd/Edelmen + Branch/Draft-Pick/Cheap-Free-Agent/Stallworth/Ebert

The offense will still put up a decent point total; especially if Ridley and Vareen improve.

And then use the 7-10m in savings by not signing welker on the defense -- sign or trade for an impact DT/DE/SS/CB (in addition to spending the rest of the cap money however they were planning to).

 

[Triumph]

The Pats offense needs to change.

The truth is ugly. 14 and 17 points in 2 Super Bowls and 13 points in the 2012 AFCC. Not a pretty sight when the way the Pats win today is with offense because the defense is suspect. The best offense in the NFL could only generate 13 lousy points and was shut out in the 2nd half. Yes, blame injuries. Thats the norm these days when in past Super Bowl winning seasons injuries were never an excuse.

Post season defenses have caught up to the small ball dink and dunk. Defenses can play close to line of scrimmage because the Pats arent a serious threat to go down field. Smurf WRs are passe. Look at the Giants and Ravens. Big WRs who can go up and get the ball. Some with speed. QBs dont need to be nearly as accurate throwing to big WRs vs smurfs who require a tight windows to get the ball in.

 

[Triumph]

Brian Hartline could be had for about 5 mil per season.

Brian Hartline News, Stats, Photos | Miami Dolphins

 

[Raymond]

I think an argument could even be made that we don't sign a high priced WR and just start the season with

Gronk/Hernadez
Lloyd/Edelmen + Branch/Draft-Pick/Cheap-Free-Agent/Stallworth/Ebert...............

I don't disagree with you, however, If the Pats start next season without Welker and either Branch or Stallworth on the team I will be seriously disappointed in the front office.

 

[Triumph]

I don't disagree with you, however, If the Pats start next season without Welker and either Branch or Stallworth on the team I will be seriously disappointed in the front office.

Branch is done. Toast.

Stallworth. Its time to move on.

 

[goheels22002]

Broncos
Seahawks
Bengals
Colts
Bears
Packers


Those are all teams who are under the cap today, even without making their cuts, are good teams, and could put Welker to very good use.

Of those teams, the only ones with $8 million +/- for two or three years available are the Colts and the Bengals. The others have their own free agent issues to deal with and less money available than the Patriots.

The Colts would be better off going deep into free agency for offensive linemen and LB, secondary help. The Bengals have 25 free agents - half their roster.

The Patriots should let him look around and if he gets a great deal, say goodbye. I think there's a chance his best situation will be in New England after he tests the market. Either way, no hard feelings if he takes his last chance at a big pay day elsewhere.

 

[LloydBraun]

I think Francesa woke up on the wrong side of the microphone & he is trying to stir the pot.

Franchise Wes, negotiate, if no luck? Trade. Business is business. This team needs some traditional outside WRs and more help on D.

The scary thing is, this O was awesome last year, yet I felt they old be so much more. The TEs were never healthy together. The WRs weren't very good, outside of WW. The o-line was good, but had injuries. 2013 should be awesome.

 

[Deus Irae]

Of those teams, the only ones with $8 million +/- for two or three years available are the Colts and the Bengals. The others have their own free agent issues to deal with and less money available than the Patriots.

The Colts would be better off going deep into free agency for offensive linemen and LB, secondary help. The Bengals have 25 free agents - half their roster.

The Patriots should let him look around and if he gets a great deal, say goodbye. I think there's a chance his best situation will be in New England after he tests the market. Either way, no hard feelings if he takes his last chance at a big pay day elsewhere.

Having $8 million right now is unimportant. We know that from watching the Patriots over the years. The point of looking to teams with cap room now is that it'll be easier for them to clear space for the big free agents.

Luck needs a life preserver.

The Bengals are way under the cap. We're talking $50 million plus.

Welker's best situation is where he feels that the team isn't screwing him.

As for the "goodbye", people will learn that mistake just as they've learned the Samuel mistake and the Seymour mistake. Begrudgingly, and insisting all the while that things are rosy, even while knowing better. Cutting loose is easy. Replacing is where the difficulty lies.

 

[RayClay]

Francesa Says Welker Wants Out Of NE... - Jets Insider.com Forums

I'm listening to WFAN now, looking for confirmation that Francessa actually said it.

Francesa Says Welker Wants Out Of NE...
Snoozy just reported on his radio show that he has his "sauces" that have been telling him that Welker is tired of being unappreciated by the Pats and their fans...
Says Welker will be flirting with the 49'ers once FA begins...

Don't listen to Hollandaise, she's just a drama queen.

 

[tonyto3690]

You made what is essentially a baseless claim about Fitzgerald being a better fit. It's essentially the same argument that people made when claiming Welker's catch numbers would go down because of Gronk and Hernandez, only to see Welker put up 240 catches in two seasons. I'm pointing out that Welker as a fit is nothing approaching an issue and is certainly not less of a "natural" fit than Fitzgerald would be, which is what you were claiming. It's really nothing more than that.

If you really do not think that Fitzgerald-Gronk-Hernandez would have been harder to defend than Welker-Gronk-Hernandez, I don't know what to tell you. Firstly a case could easily be made that Fitz is a better receiver than Welker period, but it is undeniable Fitzgerald is a vastly superior deep, outside the numbers and intermediate route receiver. Having a player who can consistently win there instead of clogging up the field for Gronk/Hernandez would have helped.

I'm Welker's biggest fan, and think he's a top 5 WR, but he clashes with the skill set of Gronk and especially Hernandez. He's redundant which is not helpful.

 

[patfanken]

As for the "goodbye", people will learn that mistake just as they've learned the Samuel mistake and the Seymour mistake. Begrudgingly, and insisting all the while that things are rosy, even while knowing better. Cutting loose is easy. Replacing is where the difficulty lies.

MISTAKES??? These are the moves that allowed the Pats to maintain their excellence. The mistake would have been to KEEP and overpay both Samuel and Seymour. Stop thinking so myopically. This is chess, not checkers. Its more than signing or not signing, its all about the implications of what that signing means down the road and how it affects others.

Vince Wilfork has had a far greater positive impact on the Pats than Seymour has had with the Raiders....AND at a far lower cost, and the fact it also netted us a franchise LT is just icing on the cake. Yeah....Right.... trading Seymour was a "mistake".

On the whole this is a very young team that will have a LOT of players reaching FA over the next 3 years. Signing Welker today might make everyone feel good, but if his price is TOO high, than that signing could greatly affect other areas of the team over the next 3 years.

When are people going to get it through their heads that the Pats are NOT thinking myopically. They have placed a value on Welker and plus or minus 5-10% that's what they will be willing to play him. I have no idea what that number is, but it exists. Tom Brady is currently the ONLY irreplaceable player on the Patriots.

 

[Deus Irae]

If you really do not think that Fitzgerald-Gronk-Hernandez would have been harder to defend than Welker-Gronk-Hernandez, I don't know what to tell you.

You're making a claim without evidence. I don't know what else to tell you.

Firstly a case could easily be made that Fitz is a better receiver than Welker period,

Absolutely. I'd make that case, myself.

but it is undeniable Fitzgerald is a vastly superior deep, outside the numbers and intermediate route receiver.

Nobody's denied that.

Having a player who can consistently win there instead of clogging up the field for Gronk/Hernandez would have helped.

Here's where you go completely off the rails. Welker doesn't clog up anything for Gronk/Hernandez. What Welker does is get open short faster than any other player in the NFL, which is why he works so well with Brady.

I'm Welker's biggest fan, and think he's a top 5 WR, but he clashes with the skill set of Gronk and especially Hernandez. He's redundant which is not helpful.

That's the biggest garbage claim made by the anti-Welker crowd, and it's been proven wrong for 3 straight years.

 

[RIpats88]

lets be honest. welker doesnt want $8million a year...if he did he would be signed right now. the pats offered him 2 years and 16million$ guaranteed and he turned it down.

I guess it comes down to do you pay wlker $12million and neglect other areas of the team that need improvement and roll into next year with roughly the same team? or have to weaken other areas to sign welker? we can complain about how the pats/kraft are cheap...but their way of doing business and valueing the "team" over 1 or 2 players is partly why they have been so consistent over the years.

or do you pay $5million for a hartline and use that $7million to shore up the defense?

a WR corp of Hartline/Lloyd/Edelman/rookie with Gronk/Hernandez and vereen/woodhead is still pretty solid


this teams offense hasnt been able to get it done 3years now...you can say its because we were missing Gronk...but still there is no other guy on that receiving corp who can win those 50-50 balls.

i'm all for signing welker at the right price...I dont agree with overpaying him to the detriment to the team as a whole...because as we have seen the past few years just having welker doesnt = championship

 

[borg]

Regarding the WW to SF speculation (and setting aside the cap feasibility), I think SF would be hitting a home run with a WW/Davis/Crabtree nucleus. Knowing teams fear using the nickel defense verses the Gore/Kaepernick run threat, think of the space that would be created with 3 premium passing targets that operate in different plains. Davis gets doubled no matter what because no LB stands a chance vs his speed. Crabtree is the type of elite athlete (I wish the Patriots had instead of one dimensional Lloyd) that can be moved all over the field forcing defenses to make choices. And Welker...we know how accomplished he is and would be the perfect security blanket for a young QB. SF would be smart to deploy a strong underneath option considering how Kaepernick relied on the more vertical game (8 of 16 completions vs Balt were for 20+ yds).
Welker would be a great fit though his days of 100 receptions would certainly end.
I do find it interesting that many here believe he is not worthy of more than $8 mill. What is he, top 3 in catches and yds over the past 5 years.....for $8 mill??? That seems the bargain of the century especially when you factor in durability and team first mentality. 100 catches for $8 mill.....where do I sign up for that kind of production and consistency.
WW gonna get paid.....somewhere.

 

[tonyto3690]

That's the biggest garbage claim made by the anti-Welker crowd, and it's been proven wrong for 3 straight years.

No, it's lost us 3 consecutive playoff games.

There were 2 common links in all three recent playoff losses.

1. Our defensive line couldn't pressure with four people.
2. Our offense bogged down because opponents flooded the middle of the field with zone which was used to stop the run and we had no one who could win deep to punish them for it.

Fitzgerald requires a corner and safety over the top help every single play. Against the Ravens we saw them put 7 or 8 in the box, press Hernandez and bracket Welker and we were toast. This is why we saw the Patriots throw so many deep shots on 2nd and short and 3rd and short- because the Ravens completely ignored the possibility of anything over 15 yards and stayed at home for the run. We didn't convert seemingly any of those 3rd and shorts and that's why we lost. We didn't move the chains like we had all season.

Our run game fell apart against the stacked box and neither Welker nor Hernandez could beat their coverage consistently downfield. Our offense fell apart and we lost the game.

With Gronkowski is it a different game? Absolutely.

But I personally would rather not put all my eggs in the "hope Gronk is 100%" basket and would like a wideout who could win deep/outside and stretch the defense.

 

[Patriot Missile]

If you really do not think that Fitzgerald-Gronk-Hernandez would have been harder to defend than Welker-Gronk-Hernandez, I don't know what to tell you. Firstly a case could easily be made that Fitz is a better receiver than Welker period, but it is undeniable Fitzgerald is a vastly superior deep, outside the numbers and intermediate route receiver. Having a player who can consistently win there instead of clogging up the field for Gronk/Hernandez would have helped.

I'm Welker's biggest fan, and think he's a top 5 WR, but he clashes with the skill set of Gronk and especially Hernandez. He's redundant which is not helpful.

A top 5wr but he clashes with the te's? When is the last time he has played with both on the field at the same time for a full game.

I'm going to let the front office make these tough decisions(thank God) but I'll end it with this. I think if this team could stay healthy, get better on defense and keep improving in the running game they could be unstoppable next season.

Losses

Arizona. Hernandez leaves game early bad ankle sprain? Welker 95 yards

Baltimore. No Hernandez, refs,def. Welker 142 yds

Seattle. No Hernandez, good game by both sides, blown coverage. Welker 138 yds

SF. No Gronkowski, Lloyd and Hernadez top performers, almost had it. 56 yds Welker.

What did he actually do to clash with the skill set here since every loss there wasn't two elite tight ends to clash with? How would he perform with a fully healthy compliment of players and maybe add a deep threat from a very deep draft for wideouts? An improved defense that will be one season and another training camp better?

 

[Ring 6]

Having $8 million right now is unimportant. We know that from watching the Patriots over the years. The point of looking to teams with cap room now is that it'll be easier for them to clear space for the big free agents.

Luck needs a life preserver.

The Bengals are way under the cap. We're talking $50 million plus.

Welker's best situation is where he feels that the team isn't screwing him.

As for the "goodbye", people will learn that mistake just as they've learned the Samuel mistake and the Seymour mistake. Begrudgingly, and insisting all the while that things are rosy, even while knowing better. Cutting loose is easy. Replacing is where the difficulty lies.

Samuel was not a mistake.
Seymour was only a mistake when viewed myopically. We would have been better with him but worse with him - what we would not have been able to add and/or the different pieces that would have had to be subracted.
Viewing a subtraction as bad by pretending their would have not needed to be different subtractions is just bad reasoning.

 

[Deus Irae]

No, it's lost us 3 consecutive playoff games.

This is the sort of nonsense that makes the anti-Welker people look idiotic to outside fanbases reading this.

 

[borg]

Our run game fell apart against the stacked box

Stacked box?????

The Ravens were in nickel vs. NE for all but 3 plays. Four DL neutralized the NE run game to the point that NE averaged 3 yds/carry, attempted zero play actions on 3rd down, and forced Brady to chuck the ball 54 times with a 53% completion rate. Brady lived in shot gun because Balt owned the LOS despite being in nickel and the only effective 3rd down run NE had (3 attempts in 14 3rd down plays) was on a gimmick direct snap to Vereen.

The box may have looked stacked because of the Balt. utter domination by the front 4...and it may have looked stacked because Brady was in ultimate small ball mode so everyone was close to the LOS.

If NE wants to consistently put up points against these strong playoff caliber defenses, they need to present an effective running game that forces teams out of nickel which opens the passing lanes. Until they do, expect the same. The advantage of the new pistol offense and these young mobile QBs is their mere presence forces defenses to stay more at home on the line. When one of these run first QBs actually has an accurate arm (even better an accurate cannon), the offensive possibilities multiply. Baltimore played base vs the mobile Kaepernick and he passed for eight 20+ yd completions using 3 receivers.
Of course we know Brady is not capable of striking fear via his wheels, so what does NE need to do to garnish more respect for their run game. The status quo personnel was insufficient. Reiss seems to believe a lead blocking RB is the answer. I would like a beast interior lineman.......why not a combination of both.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Stacked box?????

The Ravens were in nickel vs. NE for all but 3 plays. Four DL neutralized the NE run game to the point that NE averaged 3 yds/carry, attempted zero play actions on 3rd down, and forced Brady to chuck the ball 54 times with a 53% completion rate. Brady lived in shot gun because Balt owned the LOS despite being in nickel and the only effective 3rd down run NE had (3 attempts in 14 3rd down plays) was on a gimmick direct snap to Vereen.

The box may have looked stacked because of the Balt. utter domination by the front 4...and it may have looked stacked because Brady was in ultimate small ball mode so everyone was close to the LOS.

If NE wants to consistently put up points against these strong playoff caliber defenses, they need to present an effective running game that forces teams out of nickel which opens the passing lanes. Until they do, expect the same. The advantage of the new pistol offense and these young mobile QBs is their mere presence forces defenses to stay more at home on the line. When one of these run first QBs actually has an accurate arm (even better an accurate cannon), the offensive possibilities multiply. Baltimore played base vs the mobile Kaepernick and he passed for eight 20+ yd completions using 3 receivers.
Of course we know Brady is not capable of striking fear via his wheels, so what does NE need to do to garnish more respect for their run game. The status quo personnel was insufficient. Reiss seems to believe a lead blocking RB is the answer. I would like a beast interior lineman.......why not a combination of both.

Having a healthy Gronk is a good start. He's like a silver dollar when it comes to nickel.