NFL investigating Saints for placing bounties on players(merged X2)

[MoLewisrocks]

FWIW, it's not clear to me, based on the By-laws, that something like a "First interception of the season pool," funded solely by players, would be a violation of the rules. As near as I can tell, the Saints are in hot water for four reasons:

(1) At least one coach (Williams) was involved in administering the bounties.
(2) Outsiders apparently pledged/actually contributed money, creating salary cap violations.
(3) The program awarded money for injuring players (a specific violation of the memo sent to all players and teams).
(4) People with responsibility lied to Goodell.

Thought experiment: Let's assume that instead of what actually happened, the story that broke was that in 2009, the entire Saints defense had been pooling money to award $1,000 for each TO that season. No coaches or outsiders were involved, and no money awarded for injuries. I think the players might have been fined $5,000-$10,000 each, and that would have been the last we'd hear of it.

Based on the By-laws videotaping from the sidelines wasn't a violation. The NFL has many rules in many forms and not all of them are publicly accessible. Experiment, try and find the complete rules or a formula governing compensation picks...

If it's not a violation of the rules, why would they get fined for it? Everyone acknowledges that they know pay for play under any circumstances it's against the rules. They also know it's almost impossible to police, kind of like run of the mill, day to day, tampering. Every once in a while something fairly blatent surfaces and/or someone complains and an investigation insues and occasionally a penalty is imposed. But agents talking to GM's every day engage in tampering violations per the rules and that stuff just never gets looked into because there aren't enough hours in the day...

 

[The Boston Patriot]

Well, it seems this has really taken off and I think RG's attempt to legitimize the NFL reaction by tying this to the owner's meeting could be a grave mistake as the drums keep pounding and the cast net keeps pulling in more and more teams/coachs/players. In retrospect, his quick and decisive reaction to the Pats taping may prove to have been the correct approach in order to keep the nitwits at bay. I'm not saying what he did in reaction to the Pats taping was correct, I'm just saying that putting the uprising down quickly was likely the correct tactic.

 

[Ivan]

No, the latest is Benson is supporting Loomis and Payton 110%... I think the bs about him ordering Loomis to end the program was just that. I think he's old school NO thru and thru and they all just figured they caught a pass when the original informant changed his tune and the evidence didn't exist to persue the matter. Heck, now idiots like Sharper are talking about snitches and that they know who told and it will come out... Florio has a point, the NFL Network better talk to their employees. It's really pathetic how so many former players are trying to rationalize how this is nothing and is being blown all out of proportion. Same guys crying about their post career health benefits... Same guys who pushed for less OTA's and padded practices are now rationalizing that this is all part of the fabric of the game. Hypocritical morons...

This is where the rubber meets the road imo. Since this came out I have been waiting for even one media member to ask guys like Archuleta, Arrington, Sharper and the rest if they oppose or support the concussion lawsuit from the former players against the NFL? They can't have it both ways, they can't accuse the NFL of callous indifference towards player safety and then demand they look the other way at these behaviors because that's just the way it is and everyone knows it. If the NFL doesn't throw the book at those involved in this the lawyers for the players in the concussion suit will be able to use the NFL's indifference as proof of their claim. The NFL has no choice, whether it's fair in the context of history or not, they will have to come down hard on everyone involved. The fact that many involved apparently lied to the league in the initial investigations is also going to make it hard for the league to look the other way, as they hammered Vick for that reason and they have to stay consistent when ruling on the same infractions.

 

[Clonamery]

The NFL has no choice, whether it's fair in the context of history or not, they will have to come down hard on everyone involved. The fact that many involved apparently lied to the league in the initial investigations is also going to make it hard for the league to look the other way, as they hammered Vick for that reason and they have to stay consistent when ruling on the same infractions.

Yes, absolutely no choice.

 

[OhExaulted1]

Well, it seems this has really taken off and I think RG's attempt to legitimize the NFL reaction by tying this to the owner's meeting could be a grave mistake as the drums keep pounding and the cast net keeps pulling in more and more teams/coachs/players. In retrospect, his quick and decisive reaction to the Pats taping may prove to have been the correct approach in order to keep the nitwits at bay. I'm not saying what he did in reaction to the Pats taping was correct, I'm just saying that putting the uprising down quickly was likely the correct tactic.

Comparing Video Taping to OGRGINIZED AND INSTITUTIONALIZED SANCTIONED PAY FOR INJURING PLAYERS is like comparing Al Capone paying guys to smash kneecaps and off guys vs. some nerd who plants a camera in a girls high school showeroom. You don't see the difference?

 

[IllegalContact]

the problem for the saints is that over the last few years the league has been wrestling with the concussion issue, as well as the health of former players and taking care of them.

steve young makes a valid point that over the time in question, anyone injured by the saints has a right to sue the saints. not saying that this is what is going to happen, but the league is going to have to act harshly enough to make sure nobody even considers a lawsuit.

stealing signals is much different than intentionally injuring players. to suggest otherwise is simply deflecting

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Yes, absolutely no choice.

Useless Google can't help me locate a reference to it, but I clearly recall in the aftermath of 2007 the league instituted a new procedure that required all members of team management up to ownership level to sign a letter annually stipulating that the team was not in violation of any league rule or directive at the start of each season and requiring them to agree to report any if and when they became aware of them. It was supposed to require accountability to the league on the part of lower management (coaches and assistants including in FO jobs) and place the responsibility on upper management and ownership to ask the questions every season so there would be no claims of plausible deniability (or if there still were someone's ass was getting fired for not notifying chain of command over and above whatever league punishment was inflicted on them for not reporting directly to the league).

So there is that, too.

 

[OhExaulted1]

the problem for the saints is that over the last few years the league has been wrestling with the concussion issue, as well as the health of former players and taking care of them.

steve young makes a valid point that over the time in question, anyone injured by the saints has a right to sue the saints. not saying that this is what is going to happen, but the league is going to have to act harshly enough to make sure nobody even considers a lawsuit.

stealing signals is much different than intentionally injuring players. to suggest otherwise is simply deflecting

Someone needs to give Gregg Williams a concusion. Where you at Rodney Harrison?

 

[OhExaulted1]

If coaches can put out a bounty on players and it's OK, I think players should put out a bounty on them. GOD-ELL better go after them more than he went after us, or there should be UFC retribution coming. I make no apologies. He smacked us and smeared us, I'll always hate him for that.

You're telling me an effing video tape is worse than a bounty on opposing players to potentially end their careers and? Eff U Goodell if you go light on them. Kraft will make sure your fired. The media and Roger went overboard on us, your turn.

I don't care about fines, you effed us for a 1st Rder. I hate RG. He stuck it to us like no one when else ever has. He should be FIRED. 9 mil. a year for this douchebag? Eff U. Every owner in this league should throw him in a pit and stone him.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

If coaches can put out a bounty on players and it's OK, I think players should put out a bounty on them. GOD-ELL better go after them more than he went after us, or there should be UFC retribution coming. I make no apologies. He smacked us and smeared us, I'll always hate him for that.

You're telling me an effing video tape is worse than a bounty on opposing players to potentially end their careers and? Eff U Goodell if you go light on them. Kraft will make sure your fired. The media and Roger went overboard on us, your turn.

I don't care about fines, you effed us for a 1st Rder. I hate RG. He stuck it to us like no one when else ever has. He should be FIRED. 9 mil. a year for this douchebag? Eff U. Every owner in this league should throw him in a pit and stone him.

Yeah, for making them exponentially wealthier...

Only idiots are telling you an effing video tape is worse than a bounty on opposing players to potentailly end their careers, so stop paying attention to them.

 

[OhExaulted1]

Yeah, for making them exponentially wealthier...

Only idiots are telling you an effing video tape is worse than a bounty on opposing players to potentailly end their careers, so stop paying attention to them.

You're right. I apologize. Obviously plastic VHS tapes and CD's are way more dangerous than what happens on the feild. Fine the Saints a 7th and some money. Suspend Williams a couple and Payton for less. What they orchestrated was way less disgusting than video-taping. Rock on with that.

 

[OhExaulted1]

Yeah, for making them exponentially wealthier...

Only idiots are telling you an effing video tape is worse than a bounty on opposing players to potentailly end their careers, so stop paying attention to them.

Sorry Mo, you're a great poster. I'm just fired up. You're good in my book. It's just a back at ya moment to RG. I hate him.

 

[Joker]

stealing signals is much different than intentionally injuring players. to suggest otherwise is simply deflecting

are you actually claiming the Patriots STOLE signals? of course, you have PROOF of this right???

 

[OhExaulted1]

are you actually claiming the Patriots STOLE signals? of course, you have PROOF of this right???

They did nothing else other teams did, but because of our success we were villified. As Bill said, it's nothing 70-80 thousand fans in the stands can't see.

 

[Jackson 2]

Useless Google can't help me locate a reference to it, but I clearly recall in the aftermath of 2007 the league instituted a new procedure that required all members of team management up to ownership level to sign a letter annually stipulating that the team was not in violation of any league rule or directive at the start of each season and requiring them to agree to report any if and when they became aware of them. It was supposed to require accountability to the league on the part of lower management (coaches and assistants including in FO jobs) and place the responsibility on upper management and ownership to ask the questions every season so there would be no claims of plausible deniability (or if there still were someone's ass was getting fired for not notifying chain of command over and above whatever league punishment was inflicted on them for not reporting directly to the league).

So there is that, too.

I absolutely recall that, also.

 

[Deus Irae]

King writes that, after an unflagged high-low hit on Brett Favre resulted in a sprained ankle, an unnamed Saints defender was heard saying on an on-field microphone, “Pay me my money!”...

...King also explains that defensive end Anthony Hargrove can be heard saying, “Favre is out of the game! Favre is done! Favre is done!”

There's more at the link. This is some really sick stuff, and I hope this sort of thing hasn't been happening in New England. As I've said before, rewarding good plays and hard hits is one thing, but rewarding someone for injuring players is beyond the pale.

Saints defender after Favre injury: “Pay me my money!” | ProFootballTalk

 

[billdog3484]

Being that of all fans, we are in a similar situation to Saints fans, I have an opinion on this which may be different from some of yours.

In my opinion, I dont think the Saints should lose draft picks. Who gets hurt in that situation? I think the Fans, by way of less talent on their team.

I think the NFL should fine the owner of the Saints like $50M. I believe that would put a lot of pressure on them to fire the GM and the Coach.

I think the NFL should place a lifetime ban on Greg Williams a la Pete Rose. What is worse? Betting on a game or paying your players to intentionally attempt to injure a player? In terms of integrity, what is worse? I think they are comprable.

When we lost picks after spygate I felt like I personally got screwed. They shouldve fined the Patriots a lot more.

Of course, one could always make the argument that the NFL Owner would just raise prices on their tickets, etc, in an effort to recoup that money. I get it, but I just dont think the fans should be the ones harmed

 

[The Boston Patriot]

Comparing Video Taping to OGRGINIZED AND INSTITUTIONALIZED SANCTIONED PAY FOR INJURING PLAYERS is like comparing Al Capone paying guys to smash kneecaps and off guys vs. some nerd who plants a camera in a girls high school showeroom. You don't see the difference?

Clearly OhExaulted one, you missed the context of my message. I was only referring to the lack of immediate action vs letting it play out in the media. Whatever else you were trying to read into my post is lost on most including me.

 

[Bella*chick]

Being that of all fans, we are in a similar situation to Saints fans, I have an opinion on this which may be different from some of yours.

In my opinion, I dont think the Saints should lose draft picks. Who gets hurt in that situation? I think the Fans, by way of less talent on their team.

I think the NFL should fine the owner of the Saints like $50M. I believe that would put a lot of pressure on them to fire the GM and the Coach.

I think the NFL should place a lifetime ban on Greg Williams a la Pete Rose. What is worse? Betting on a game or paying your players to intentionally attempt to injure a player? In terms of integrity, what is worse? I think they are comprable.

When we lost picks after spygate I felt like I personally got screwed. They shouldve fined the Patriots a lot more.

Of course, one could always make the argument that the NFL Owner would just raise prices on their tickets, etc, in an effort to recoup that money. I get it, but I just dont think the fans should be the ones harmed

I dunno, I think most fans recognize that a good coach isn't exactly standing on every street corner. I would never take a draft pick over BB. I think most fans feel like Payton is a good coach and who is to say that if the coach was fired, the next hire wouldn't be someone who completely screws up the team? That's hurting the fans too. Draft picks are not some holy grail. THe team needs to be punished and by definition, fans of that team are going to feel punished too. It is what it is.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Re: Bountygate/Spygate comparisons

Here is the problem for clever fans and media members who use the "If it didn't help, why would they do it?" argument: Not everything a coaching staff does to prepare their team actually helps on the field. They may think or hope it does, but merely doing something does not translate to an advantage.

Take the 0-16 Lions as an example. Nothing that team did to prepare helped it win a game. I'd have to imagine that around game 12, when going winless was a real possibility, the coaches tried different things. It could have been longer practices, or more days off, or putting more gadget plays in the game plan, or shaking up the routine schedule. In the end, none of it helped them win a game.

It would be foolish to say that there's no advantage to practicing because the 2008 Lions practiced and didn't win at all.

The "if it didn't help why would they have done it" argument is a tacit admission that they can't figure out what difference it really made. It's really a strong argument for the accused, not the accuser.