How Pats crush Tebow - Make him roll right

[Deus Irae]

Well, I don't know Deus. Aren't getting to the QB and causing turnovers part of effective defense?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. How much of getting a fumble off the backup RB who didn't switch the ball into the non-contact hand or cover it with 2 arms while running inside the line, and didn't have it held particularly well in the wrong hand, either is really good defense, and how much is being lucky enough not to have the starter in there and being the recipient of a bad job done by the backup? If a team moves the ball fairly well for 2-3 sets of downs and then suffers one sack, was there really good defense overall or did the sack just happen to come at the right time in the drive? When a KR muffs a catch and puts his team in the crapper, is it really good defense if the opponent scores as a result?

That's a weighing thing, there, and people will come to different conclusions.

I'd say it was a mixed bag, but that the score went from 16-14 Broncos to 27-16 Patriots as a result, and threw the Broncos for a loop from which they never really recovered.

 

[ATippett56]

It's a tale of two Tebows.

It's either the one that showed up against the New England Patriots earlier this season, or the one that just led the Denver Broncos to victory against the Pittsburgh Steelers.

 

[Tunescribe]

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. How much of getting a fumble off the backup RB who didn't switch the ball into the non-contact hand or cover it with 2 arms while running inside the line, and didn't have it held particularly well in the wrong hand, either is really good defense, and how much is being lucky enough not to have the starter in there and being the recipient of a bad job done by the backup? If a team moves the ball fairly well for 2-3 sets of downs and then suffers one sack, was there really good defense overall or did the sack just happen to come at the right time in the drive? When a KR muffs a catch and puts his team in the crapper, is it really good defense if the opponent scores as a result?

That's a weighing thing, there, and people will come to different conclusions.

I'd say it was a mixed bag, but that the score went from 16-14 Broncos to 27-16 Patriots as a result, and threw the Broncos for a loop from which they never really recovered.

I don't understand what you're trying to argue. The Denver offense doesn't play the Patriots defense in a vacuum. The Patriots offense also has a part in the outcome. Right? It seems that you're attempting to suggest Denver's offense has the advantage over New England no matter what and anything occurring to its detriment is happenstance.

If all you're saying is that Denver's offense is capable of getting the upper hand against New England's defense, I'd agree -- to an extent. That being the ability to score in the 20s, which is enough to make a game of it but not be enough to overcome the scoring power of the Pats offense. Certainly, the Broncos offense should not be dismissed. But barring divine intervention, a relatively healthy and rested Pats defense should contain it enough for a win Saturday night.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't understand what you're trying to argue. The Denver offense doesn't play the Patriots defense in a vacuum. The Patriots offense also has a part in the outcome. Right? It seems that you're attempting to suggest Denver's offense has the advantage over New England no matter what and anything occurring to its detriment is happenstance.

If all you're saying is that Denver's offense is capable of getting the upper hand against New England's defense, I'd agree -- to an extent. That being the ability to score in the 20s, which is enough to make a game of it but not be enough to overcome the scoring power of the Pats offense. Certainly, the Broncos offense should not be dismissed. But barring divine intervention, a relatively healthy and rested Pats defense should contain it enough for a win Saturday night.

I wasn't arguing anything there, Tune. I was trying to answer her specific question and apply it, as best as I could, to the last Patriots/Broncos game.

My overall argument is just that people are underrating what Denver was able to do in that game, and overrating the Patriots actions in the game. While the Patriots were eventually able to blow out the Patriots (and most of us seem to agree that once the game becomes one where Tebow HAS to throw, it's a huge advantage to the Patriots) it was only because of some plays that aren't the sort you can rely upon that the Patriots were really able to open the lead up. We're not talking about Sanchez tossing picks when you flush him left and cut off the backdoor pass, here. If Cosby doesn't muff a punt and Ball doesn't botch his ball control (resulting in a fumble when he was only in the game because of injury to McGahee), that's still a ballgame and Denver doesn't take a punch to the solar plexus. Denver was doing a very good job of beating up on the Patriots defense and might well have been able to continue doing so.

I've also tended to include Fox's idiotic decision to go for it on 4th down, but I don't put that in the same category, even though it's part of what turned the game, IMO. That was a case of BB outsmarting a man that he knew would probably make the wrong call and settle for the 3.

 

[ShaneFalco]

tebow can roll right fellas. watch the miami game. he throws a td spot on rolling right.

 

[MaineMan]

Which of the Patriots 14 shutdown cornerbacks is going to shut down Thomas?

Edelperson!!

 

[Nikolai]

Two things I noticed, that I haven't seen mentioned here.

1. Troy Polamalu gambled on a lot of plays, as he tends to do, and got burned a couple times, and nearly got burned for a TD another time (saved by an overthrow by Tebow).

2. Harrison was terrible at containing Tebow in the pocket. He made a straight line for Tebow every time, wherein Tebow would roll out and do his thing.

The whole point of the Pats scheme was gap discipline and containment (at least after the first quarter). Why was there all this talk of the Pats finding the blueprint for Tebow after the first game? Because they had actually found a sound strategy for stopping him. The bottom line is that the Pats are not going to play the Broncos the way the Steelers played them, so I don't see a lot to compare. Watching the Steelers gameplan certainly isn't going to be diagnostic when anticipating what is going to happen on Saturday.

 

[UK_Pat37]

How do you stop Tebow? Don't do what the Steelers did That was ****'s worst ever game as a coordinator....absolutely horrendous...he boxed everyone up, played his safeties inside 10 yards of the LoS then e expected his corners to win the battles over the top!

They heavily cheated on the run game.

 

[Uncle Rico]

From today's Globe, Bedard talks with Greg Cosell:

“This was far and away (Tebow's) best, best game,’’ said NFL Films guru Greg Cosell, who has studied the coaches’ film on Tebow all season. “I mean, I don’t think he’s thrown the ball this well ever.’’

...

In two games after facing the Patriots, Tebow completed 19 of 51 passes (37.3 percent) for 245 yards, one touchdown, and four interceptions for a rating of 24.6 in losses to the Bills and Chiefs.
...

“Tebow had been awful the last three games prior,’’ Cosell said. “I mean, really awful. To the point where in his last game against Kansas City, there was a level of almost embarrassment to watching him. You felt almost badly because he was so bad. But you have to give credit where credit is due. There’s nothing on tape to suggest that he would do that, so that’s why the Steelers chose to play that way.’’

Also ...

“In some ways you could argue it benefits the Patriots because they got to see this,’’ Cosell said. “They’re not going to be the ones who are going to get surprised by it. They wouldn’t have played Cover 0 like that anyways, but it just adds another element to it now and you can guarantee Bill [Belichick] will drive that home.’’

Story goes on to discuss the types of defense that have been effective against Tebow for the Xs-and-Os posters here to pick at.

 

[PatsDeb]

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. How much of getting a fumble off the backup RB who didn't switch the ball into the non-contact hand or cover it with 2 arms while running inside the line, and didn't have it held particularly well in the wrong hand, either is really good defense, and how much is being lucky enough not to have the starter in there and being the recipient of a bad job done by the backup? If a team moves the ball fairly well for 2-3 sets of downs and then suffers one sack, was there really good defense overall or did the sack just happen to come at the right time in the drive? When a KR muffs a catch and puts his team in the crapper, is it really good defense if the opponent scores as a result?

That's a weighing thing, there, and people will come to different conclusions.

I'd say it was a mixed bag, but that the score went from 16-14 Broncos to 27-16 Patriots as a result, and threw the Broncos for a loop from which they never really recovered.

Yes, we will have to agree to disagree. Since those things happen to the Pats all the time, though, I think it is more attributable to their style of play rather than just luck. They are not (unfortunately) a shut-down defense. They are a bend-don't-break opportunistic defense. Admittedly they break too often, mostly at the beginning of games where they are getting a feel for the game and the other team, but so far they have been able to adjust and hold on while the O does its thing. I'm thinking they will do the same or better this Saturday. We shall see soon enough.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

It doesn't matter whether Tebow rolls left or right or both ways at the same time ....... he's not going to be able to come close to outscoring that other QB who plays for the Pats.

 

[Gumby]

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. How much of getting a fumble off the backup RB who didn't switch the ball into the non-contact hand or cover it with 2 arms while running inside the line, and didn't have it held particularly well in the wrong hand, either is really good defense, and how much is being lucky enough not to have the starter in there and being the recipient of a bad job done by the backup? If a team moves the ball fairly well for 2-3 sets of downs and then suffers one sack, was there really good defense overall or did the sack just happen to come at the right time in the drive? When a KR muffs a catch and puts his team in the crapper, is it really good defense if the opponent scores as a result?

That's a weighing thing, there, and people will come to different conclusions.

I'd say it was a mixed bag, but that the score went from 16-14 Broncos to 27-16 Patriots as a result, and threw the Broncos for a loop from which they never really recovered.

hmmm. seems like mcgahee coughed up the ball by "not having it held real well" and ran through the middle without covering with 2 hands (until too late) as well.

sure some of the Pats breaks in the Pats-Broncos was just lucky or uncharacteristic for the Broncos; but same goes for the good things the Broncos did during the Squeelers game.

I think the key point to realize is that the Broncos aren't built to come back from a multiple score deficit; the Pats are. So if a few breaks go badly for the Pats in this game; they are still in it. But if a couple go bad for the Broncos; little Timmy is in for a long night.

 

[NinjaZX6R]

tebow can roll right fellas. watch the miami game. he throws a td spot on rolling right.

He is more accurate rolling to his left than to his right. Same goes for Big Ben. HE is more deadly rolling right than rolling left. That's why teams like the Ravens, when they use their overload blitzes, tend to bring it from the right side of Big Ben.

 

[NinjaZX6R]

From today's Globe, Bedard talks with Greg Cosell:



Also ...


Story goes on to discuss the types of defense that have been effective against Tebow for the Xs-and-Os posters here to pick at.

Pitt was a bit arrogant for playing cover 0 for most of the game despite being burned few times for long passes in the game.
If you watched the KC game, KC always had 1 deep safety whenever they loaded up the box.

In that final td vs the Steelers, both SS and FS were within 10 yards of the LOS. In fact, all 11 defenders were within 10 yards.

Also, Steelers blitzed Tebow 10 times. Tebow was 4/10 for 30-40 yards give or take.

 

[Uncle Rico]

Pitt was a bit arrogant for playing cover 0 for most of the game despite being burned few times for long passes in the game.
If you watched the KC game, KC always had 1 deep safety whenever they loaded up the box.

In that final td vs the Steelers, both SS and FS were within 10 yards of the LOS. In fact, all 11 defenders were within 10 yards.

Also, Steelers blitzed Tebow 10 times. Tebow was 4/10 for 30-40 yards give or take.

Yup.

hey - -wonder if BB called RAC to congratulate him on his new gig in KC. Maybe chat about defense and stuff like that, like old times. Not that BB needs added insight, but just to chat.

 

[NinjaZX6R]

Yup.

hey - -wonder if BB called RAC to congratulate him on his new gig in KC. Maybe chat about defense and stuff like that, like old times.

Oh yeah. I wouldn't doubt it.

 

[SeymourTrophies]

Which of the Patriots 14 shutdown cornerbacks is going to shut down Thomas?

I expect something like the exaggerated respect for Evans and Owens that we saw in the gameplan in the '09 opener against Buffalo. Look, we're gonna get burned a few times just because our secondary is that bad and their ability to find the ball as it's en route is upsetting. BB will not dare Tebow to beat us deep like Pitt did though.

 

[SeymourTrophies]

...At least not with the deep ball.

 

[Keyser Söze]

No damn reason the Pats should lose this. They have some serious issues if they fall to Denver.

 

[CheeseMonkeys]

Afraid of Tebow and Thomas? Tebow Couldn't throw a bowling ball through a glass door... ughh :bricks:


Seriously, Tebow's a good player but he's not as good as some of you are making him out to be. He is less of an opponent then I would expect to face in the divisional round. The Broncs are an 8-8 team. I'm not too worried. This is the playoffs and the games should be tough and this one isn't as bad as it could be.

And for every "weapon" the Broncos have on offense, the Patriots can top them.

Tebow... or Brady?
Thomas... or Gronkowski?
Decker... or Welker?
McGahee... or Green-Ellis?