Would we draft 2 DL high?

[RayClay]

BB says it's a deep draft. BB says there's only so many 300 lb top athletes on the Planet.

Just looked at a consensus draft and it's quite possible we have one, or choice of Watt, and the two Camerons at 17. Muhammad Wilkerson has floated between high second, low first, where we have picks. We'd still have a 1st/2nd border pick, and another 2 two 3's.

Stroud is a short timer at best, Ty will hopefully be back to form and Brace looked good in spots, but hardly whar you'd bet the farm on yet.

That golden three allstar line won't happen again and Seymour left a big hole. I could see Brace and two more fighting for playing time as they learn, and spelling Wilfork and Ty Warren, if indeed he's up to snuff.

Thoughts?

 

[mgteich]

I think only one is needed. But I wouldn't be at all upset if Belichick drafted two DE's, especially if one is considered developmental and would take at least a season to develop.

Personally, I would be 100% fine with Warren, Wilfork and Jordan.

We would have Stroud and Brace as primary backups.

This doesn't even count production from Wright, Pryor, Deaderick and Love. The last group could take reps from the top 5, or not. After all, the healthy top 5 DL's often get almost all the defensive reps.

One option that would intrigue me would be a backup NT in the 3rd or 4th.

 

[RayClay]

I think only one is needed. But I wouldn't be at all upset if Belichick drafted two DE's, especially if one is considered developmental and would take at least a season to develop.

Personally, I would be 100% fine with Warren, Wilfork and Jordan.

We would have Stroud and Brace as primary backups.

This doesn't even count production from Wright, Pryor, Deaderick and Love. The last group could take reps from the top 5, or not. After all, the healthy top 5 DL's often get almost all the defensive reps.

One option that would intrigue me would be a backup NT in the 3rd or 4th.

If BB rates them high and they are available, I doubt he would worry about need.

Sure, we brought a lot of bodies in since Seymour, and some of the kids played fairly well. Nevertheless, we had to move Wilfork all over the line depending on matchups and our pass rushing and interior pass defense problems quite possibly were due to having players other than linemen plugging leaks in the damn.

Mike Wright was a nice surprise, but saying a bunch of free agents and 7th round picks have jobs nailed down is myopic.

Our defense is based on massive athletic linemen, and we have one only for sure, at the present.

 

[mgteich]

The five players that I suggested would get the vast majority of reps are listed below. I apologize if this isn't enough quality and resources for you.

Wilfork 1st
Warren 1st
Jordan 1st
Brace 2nd
Stroud free agent (and former #1)
=============================

THE TWO BENCH SITTERS
I do indeed have late round draft choices competing for these reps. For me, we have great value in guys like Wright, Pryor (6th rounder), Love and Deaderick. For me, this is plenty to choose from for backups. And yes, I am fine with using the 6th round, the 7th round and free agency to secure players for the end of the bench.

I wouldn't spend yet another 1st. I'd rather a 3rd or 4th for a backup NT.
==============================

HOWEVER
In the end, I am fine with Belichick adding a 2nd first rounder. What that would mean to me is that Warren's health was in question, which is quite possible. In a BPA world, I think that there will be players at other positions more valuable to us than a 2nd DE.

If BB rates them high and they are available, I doubt he would worry about need.

Sure, we brought a lot of bodies in since Seymour, and some of the kids played fairly well. Nevertheless, we had to move Wilfork all over the line depending on matchups and our pass rushing and interior pass defense problems quite possibly were due to having players other than linemen plugging leaks in the damn.

Mike Wright was a nice surprise, but saying a bunch of free agents and 7th round picks have jobs nailed down is myopic.

Our defense is based on massive athletic linemen, and we have one only for sure, at the present.

 

[supafly]

I would personally agree with MG here, Ray Clay.

I don't see much need in picking more than 1 DL in a 'high' sense. We all have our definitions of 'high,' but mine would be rounds 1-3.

I think there is plenty of added competition with:

--returning injured players in T.Warren, Wright, and Pryor

--the offseason acquisition of Marcus Stroud

--the addition of a HIGH round draft pick, likely in the first 30 picks

--the added season of a high pick already (2nd--Brace), and the fair play of Deaderick

As you know, there are only about 7 DL spots available, so it sort of becomes redundant in my opinion. No sense cutting some guys that may very well be able to contribute and continue learning. As MG pointed out, the likelihood of the bulk of the snaps anyway are rotated between guys 1-5. I think we already have improved the depth and competition greatly (of course by assuming that a high pick will be had), as that is always the goal. It has already been fulfilled (again, assuming an added high DL pick).

 

[RayClay]

I would personally agree with MG here, Ray Clay.

I don't see much need in picking more than 1 DL in a 'high' sense. We all have our definitions of 'high,' but mine would be rounds 1-3.

I think there is plenty of added competition with:

--returning injured players in T.Warren, Wright, and Pryor

--the offseason acquisition of Marcus Stroud

--the addition of a HIGH round draft pick, likely in the first 30 picks

--the added season of a high pick already (2nd--Brace), and the fair play of Deaderick

As you know, there are only about 7 DL spots available, so it sort of becomes redundant in my opinion. No sense cutting some guys that may very well be able to contribute and continue learning. As MG pointed out, the likelihood of the bulk of the snaps anyway are rotated between guys 1-5. I think we already have improved the depth and competition greatly (of course by assuming that a high pick will be had), as that is always the goal. It has already been fulfilled (again, assuming an added high DL pick).

Well, He used a 6th overall for Seymour, a higher pick than we have now (with a tradeup) for Warren and got lucky to get Wilfork low in the 1st.

Has Marcus Stroud been to the fountain of youth? I am not talking about backups, you can always pickup backup candidates. I am talking about an opportunity to mold our line of the future around Wilfork, in what BB says is a very deep draft for DL.

We no little about Warren except that he's not been tops for a few years. Hopefully, he's 100%

 

[MaineMan]

BB says it's a deep draft. BB says there's only so many 300 lb top athletes on the Planet.

Just looked at a consensus draft and it's quite possible we have one, or choice of Watt, and the two Camerons at 17. Muhammad Wilkerson has floated between high second, low first, where we have picks. We'd still have a 1st/2nd border pick, and another 2 two 3's.

Stroud is a short timer at best, Ty will hopefully be back to form and Brace looked good in spots, but hardly whar you'd bet the farm on yet.

That golden three allstar line won't happen again and Seymour left a big hole. I could see Brace and two more fighting for playing time as they learn, and spelling Wilfork and Ty Warren, if indeed he's up to snuff.

Thoughts?

Not at all inconceivable.

Opportunity:

Looking back over the last 3-4 drafts for athletic guys who are +/- 6'5" and around 300 lbs (let's call these the BB's base parameters for a starting DE in his 3-4), there really haven't been that many at any talent level - maybe 3 or 4 per draft class. Guys who have been generally rated high enough to be considered 1st-round worthy have been even rarer - maybe 3 or 4 TOTAL over the past few drafts. In that respect, this class seems like a gold mine in comparison, with as many as FOUR "elite" prospects potentially within range of our extraordinary number of high picks (even without trading up). And I really can't say what the 2012 draft might offer (if there IS a 2012 draft) in terms of quality or numbers or likely availability in the 28-32 range (where we seem likely to be picking again). IOW, there appears to be an opportunity here that we might not see again for quite some time.

This is not to say that there aren't other options for a 2nd DE in this draft - possibly Ellis or Jenkins in the 2nd/3rd or even Lawrence Guy/"Pep" Levingston/David Carter/Brandon Bair much later as developmental prospects. It's also possible that BB already has a plan to acquire a 2nd "elite" 3-4 DE in 2012. But still ....

Need (for a 2nd DE right now):

Brace - Yeah, not horrible, but not at all a long term solution at 30-front DE (IMO). I still see his optimum position on the inside as DT/NT in 40-front sub-packages.

Deaderick - Feels to me like he could become a poor man's Jarvis Green (providing he straightens out his apparent attitude problem). But another guy I wouldn't want to count on as a long terms solution at DE.

Stroud - I have a feeling he may surprise a lot of folks and handle a DE spot much better than G.Warren (or Brace) did in 2010. I could see him being a very solid starter at either DE spot at for the early part of the season as the rookie(s) get acclimated. Possibly the only thing preventing him from being a reasonable long term solution is his age.

Ty Warren - Here's the key. Besides OUR concerns about his health that may not be resolved for US until we actually see him performing in camp, there's HIS age. He's recently turned 30 and is entering his 9th season. Even if he's healthy and back to reasonable form for this season, how old and capable will he be the next time an opportunity even close to this rolls around to acquire HIS young successor (which might be another 3 or 4 years)?

So, a truly extraordinary opportunity presents itself for BB to "fix" a key position for the long term in one draft, much as he did with TE in 2010.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

I wouldn't mind this at all. I think Ty will come back fine, but there's no guarantee of that, and he is getting up there in age. The opportunity to draft his long-term replacement may not come up again in the next few year.

Brace may be that guy, but I don't know that for sure and if there's value to taking another DL, we should do it.

 

[sg14]

Agreed, the stars are aligning to pick up DL,,
I'd rather we have the good ones as opposed to others.

Have been thinking of 2 DL for a while, it may take a 17th and a 28/33 pick to replace the capabilities of a Seymour. And would like to see a "Justin Tuck".

Speaking of Brace and Deadrick,
how would you rate them on a scale of 1 to 9 for their on the field performance. Seymour=9.

I'm thinking Brace is a 6, and Deadrick a 5, or in other words pretty close

Not at all inconceivable.

Opportunity:

Looking back over the last 3-4 drafts for athletic guys who are +/- 6'5" and around 300 lbs (let's call these the BB's base parameters for a starting DE in his 3-4), there really haven't been that many at any talent level - maybe 3 or 4 per draft class. Guys who have been generally rated high enough to be considered 1st-round worthy have been even rarer - maybe 3 or 4 TOTAL over the past few drafts. In that respect, this class seems like a gold mine in comparison, with as many as FOUR "elite" prospects potentially within range of our extraordinary number of high picks (even without trading up). And I really can't say what the 2012 draft might offer (if there IS a 2012 draft) in terms of quality or numbers or likely availability in the 28-32 range (where we seem likely to be picking again). IOW, there appears to be an opportunity here that we might not see again for quite some time.

This is not to say that there aren't other options for a 2nd DE in this draft - possibly Ellis or Jenkins in the 2nd/3rd or even Lawrence Guy/"Pep" Levingston/David Carter/Brandon Bair much later as developmental prospects. It's also possible that BB already has a plan to acquire a 2nd "elite" 3-4 DE in 2012. But still ....

Need (for a 2nd DE right now):

Brace - Yeah, not horrible, but not at all a long term solution at 30-front DE (IMO). I still see his optimum position on the inside as DT/NT in 40-front sub-packages.

Deaderick - Feels to me like he could become a poor man's Jarvis Green (providing he straightens out his apparent attitude problem). But another guy I wouldn't want to count on as a long terms solution at DE.

Stroud - I have a feeling he may surprise a lot of folks and handle a DE spot much better than G.Warren (or Brace) did in 2010. I could see him being a very solid starter at either DE spot at for the early part of the season as the rookie(s) get acclimated. Possibly the only thing preventing him from being a reasonable long term solution is his age.

Ty Warren - Here's the key. Besides OUR concerns about his health that may not be resolved for US until we actually see him performing in camp, there's HIS age. He's recently turned 30 and is entering his 9th season. Even if he's healthy and back to reasonable form for this season, how old and capable will he be the next time an opportunity even close to this rolls around to acquire HIS young successor (which might be another 3 or 4 years)?

So, a truly extraordinary opportunity presents itself for BB to "fix" a key position for the long term in one draft, much as he did with TE in 2010.

 

[RayClay]

I wouldn't mind this at all. I think Ty will come back fine, but there's no guarantee of that, and he is getting up there in age. The opportunity to draft his long-term replacement may not come up again in the next few year.

Brace may be that guy, but I don't know that for sure and if there's value to taking another DL, we should do it.

It also has to do with how our picks are bunched and what impact players might be available.

BB does not invent players. If two superior big guys are available, and we still have good value at OL, RB or elsewhere with our other
two 2ndish rd picks and 3rds it seems doable.

Is there value in the 17th-28th range much better at positions other than DL compared to lower, or FA possibilities?

 

[Don Kipines]

The problem with drafting two DLs is we'd inevitably be cutting some pretty promising players if we did that.

Figure Brace, Ty Warren, and this year's #1 (Jordan, for instance) as your starters.

Behind them we have four pretty excellent rotational players in Brace, Deaderick, Wright, and Pryor. And by "excellent," I mean that they're excellent backups. These are all promising players who contribute different things. Deaderick is a good run-stuffing 3-4 DE. Brace, as one poster mentioned, is a very good guy to put in 40 sub packages. Pryor is a good pass-rushing nose in sub packages as well. Wright, a good jack of all traders and good interior pass rusher. They're all still relatively young and, depending on Wright's health, good bets to be contributing linemen for years. It's tough to find NFL-quality linemen and it would be a shame to cut any of these guys loose, which is what we'd be doing if we picked up two more down linemen. As it is we're more or less automatically going to be cutting either one of those guys or Kyle Love in favor of a new draft choice.

I think it's too early for a full housecleaning at DL. There are some young players here who still need time to develop.

 

[MaineMan]

The problem with drafting two DLs is we'd inevitably be cutting some pretty promising players if we did that.

Well, when you strengthen the top of your roster at a position, guys at the bottom, "promising" or not, get squeezed out. Seems to me like that's just the way it works

Figure Brace, Ty Warren, and this year's #1 (Jordan, for instance) as your starters.

Can I assume you meant to type "Wilfork" there?

Behind them we have four pretty excellent rotational players in Brace, Deaderick, Wright, and Pryor. And by "excellent," I mean that they're excellent backups. These are all promising players who contribute different things. Deaderick is a good run-stuffing 3-4 DE. Brace, as one poster mentioned, is a very good guy to put in 40 sub packages. Pryor is a good pass-rushing nose in sub packages as well. Wright, a good jack of all traders and good interior pass rusher. They're all still relatively young and, depending on Wright's health, good bets to be contributing linemen for years. It's tough to find NFL-quality linemen and it would be a shame to cut any of these guys loose, which is what we'd be doing if we picked up two more down linemen. As it is we're more or less automatically going to be cutting either one of those guys or Kyle Love in favor of a new draft choice.

I think it's too early for a full housecleaning at DL. There are some young players here who still need time to develop.

Brace at least has the heft to hypothetically backup Wilfork at the nose in a 30-front and he seems to me more optimal on the interior than on the edge where, IMO, he doesn't have the effective range (at least, not yet).

We don't have a whole lot invested in Deaderick, Pryor or Love and none of them managed to crack even the top twelve in special teams tackles.

Deaderick appears to have (maybe) edge-rushing chops like Green, but I don't see him as a "good run-stuffer" at all. Not saying he can't get better. OTOH, he seems to have had some sort of discipline clash with BB that can't be helping his stock.

Pryor now has two years' experience in the system as an interior sub-rusher and, as others have pointed out, did okay in 2010 in spite of playing through injury (back?).

Love seems similar to Pryor in some ways, but may have a bit more ability to work from the end as Wright has.

Wright is not quite a youngster anymore and his health remains a serious concern until we find out definitively otherwise in camp.

Bottom line for me is that, if the addition of two very solid 30-front starters at the top results in pushing two or three of these guys off the bottom, I wouldn't be crushed.

 

[RayClay]

Well, when you strengthen the top of your roster at a position, guys at the bottom, "promising" or not, get squeezed out. Seems to me like that's just the way it works



Can I assume you meant to type "Wilfork" there?



Brace at least has the heft to hypothetically backup Wilfork at the nose in a 30-front and he seems to me more optimal on the interior than on the edge where, IMO, he doesn't have the effective range (at least, not yet).

We don't have a whole lot invested in Deaderick, Pryor or Love and none of them managed to crack even the top twelve in special teams tackles.

Deaderick appears to have (maybe) edge-rushing chops like Green, but I don't see him as a "good run-stuffer" at all. Not saying he can't get better. OTOH, he seems to have had some sort of discipline clash with BB that can't be helping his stock.

Pryor now has two years' experience in the system as an interior sub-rusher and, as others have pointed out, did okay in 2010 in spite of playing through injury (back?).

Love seems similar to Pryor in some ways, but may have a bit more ability to work from the end as Wright has.

Wright is not quite a youngster anymore and his health remains a serious concern until we find out definitively otherwise in camp.

Bottom line for me is that, if the addition of two very solid 30-front starters at the top results in pushing two or three of these guys off the bottom, I wouldn't be crushed.

Brace isn't willing to work to play nose. they had Gerard Warren in their fer crissake. You have to face the fact that 300 lb men don't always have the work ethic, endurance of a Wilfork, Seymour, Warren, part of why they are so valuable.

Looks like Brace has the agility to play the stouter of the DE, so we'll use him, but there's a reason he didn't back up the nose this year (I don't think he did).

If they draft Wilkerson, he might have the build, desire to take some snaps there while he's learning.

Sad fact of life, that all 300 lb men aren't willing to kill themselves play after play, but that's the way it is.

Big Ted Washington hated playing NT, his attitude was, I'll do it, but you've got to pay me.

Seriously, that was in an interview. When you say your prayers tonight, please thank the lawd for Vince Wilfork.

Everybody we have at DL right now is a backup until proven otherwise IMO (Ty due to health). Just because a bunch of players make the team because of holes doesn't make them "starters". Maybe one or two will see as many snaps as Wright or Pryor, but that's a maybe. Plus most of them fit that role.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I hear you but I don't believe as strongly in the backups as you do. It would be a shame to cut deaderick? Wasn't he suspended? He has talent yes, but how much can we count on him. Wright. He's an injury questionmark. A good backup when healthy though and I stress 'backup'. Pryor seems to have reached his ceiling which isn't very high but is adequate as a sub. Brace is an enigma. If we get players in the draft who are UPGRADES and will be part of this team's future core at DL, I don't feel any remorse about letting any of those four go.

Behind them we have four pretty excellent rotational players in Brace, Deaderick, Wright, and Pryor. And by "excellent," I mean that they're excellent backups. These are all promising players who contribute different things. Deaderick is a good run-stuffing 3-4 DE. Brace, as one poster mentioned, is a very good guy to put in 40 sub packages. Pryor is a good pass-rushing nose in sub packages as well. Wright, a good jack of all traders and good interior pass rusher. They're all still relatively young and, depending on Wright's health, good bets to be contributing linemen for years. It's tough to find NFL-quality linemen and it would be a shame to cut any of these guys loose, which is what we'd be doing if we picked up two more down linemen. As it is we're more or less automatically going to be cutting either one of those guys or Kyle Love in favor of a new draft choice.

I think it's too early for a full housecleaning at DL. There are some young players here who still need time to develop.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Brace isn't willing to work to play nose. they had Gerard Warren in their fer crissake. You have to face the fact that 300 lb men don't always have the work ethic, endurance of a Wilfork, Seymour, Warren, part of why they are so valuable.

Looks like Brace has the agility to play the stouter of the DE, so we'll use him, but there's a reason he didn't back up the nose this year (I don't think he did).

If they draft Wilkerson, he might have the build, desire to take some snaps there while he's learning.

Sad fact of life, that all 300 lb men aren't willing to kill themselves play after play, but that's the way it is.

Big Ted Washington hated playing NT, his attitude was, I'll do it, but you've got to pay me.

Seriously, that was in an interview. When you say your prayers tonight, please thank the lawd for Vince Wilfork.

Everybody we have at DL right now is a backup until proven otherwise IMO (Ty due to health). Just because a bunch of players make the team because of holes doesn't make them "starters". Maybe one or two will see as many snaps as Wright or Pryor, but that's a maybe. Plus most of them fit that role.

I'm not advocating Brace as a everyday starter here but to be fair he was showing noticeable improvement before going down with injury at the DE position. How do you know he wasn't willing to play NT for this team? Wilfork never got injured so at the time there was no need to have Brace back up NT. Wright and Brace's injuries had Wilfork out of position for a majority of the season.

 

[Fencer]

Brace, Warren, Wilfork, and any new high picks are serious assets.
So is Wright IF HE CAN RESUME HIS CAREER, which I sadly doubt.

Deaderick, Love, Pryor, Weston, Richard, et al. -- upgrade fodder.

Nothing wrong with keeping 8 DL for a season if we have a bunch of young guys and injury/age question marks -- if Warren's rehab, Brace's weird-offseason development, and Wright's recovery are all mildly disappointing or worse, Wilfork might be the ONLY one assured of contributing immediately beyond the JAG level.

 

[MaineMan]

Brace isn't willing to work to play nose. they had Gerard Warren in their fer crissake. You have to face the fact that 300 lb men don't always have the work ethic, endurance of a Wilfork, Seymour, Warren, part of why they are so valuable.

Looks like Brace has the agility to play the stouter of the DE, so we'll use him, but there's a reason he didn't back up the nose this year (I don't think he did).

If they draft Wilkerson, he might have the build, desire to take some snaps there while he's learning.

Sad fact of life, that all 300 lb men aren't willing to kill themselves play after play, but that's the way it is.

Big Ted Washington hated playing NT, his attitude was, I'll do it, but you've got to pay me.

Seriously, that was in an interview. When you say your prayers tonight, please thank the lawd for Vince Wilfork.

Everybody we have at DL right now is a backup until proven otherwise IMO (Ty due to health). Just because a bunch of players make the team because of holes doesn't make them "starters". Maybe one or two will see as many snaps as Wright or Pryor, but that's a maybe. Plus most of them fit that role.

See, I interpreted G. Warren playing the nose the other way around. Seemed to me that he was shifted inside because he simply couldn't cut it on the outside. That left Wilfork, as our best (by far) DL in 2010 at one end, and Brace at the other by default, since, tragically, there simply wasn't anyone better on the roster to replace him.

When I speculate Brace being a backup 30-front NT, it's in the sense of, "I hope to gawd we never, ever have to face that situation!" As the NT (anchor DT) in a 40-front working alongside someone like Pryor or Love, though, I think he might be pretty okay, work ethic concerns aside.

 

[sg14]

Reiss was saying he heard that 15 DL could go in the first round, which means if you want a specific player we may have to move up.

I would think that Wilkerson would be number 1 on BB's list, but that is just me.

From what I have seen Jordon, lines up all over, Wilkerson and Watt are RDEs.

Was thinking a LDE would be a lower grade for us.

 

[joseph]

Why not draft Phil Taylor? We could use Vince on the wing-he looks great there. At the same time keep the Jets from getting Taylor.

 

[mgteich]

Warren, Wilfork, Jordan
Stroud, Brace, Deaderick, Pryor/Wright

QUOTE=Don Kipines;2524603]The problem with drafting two DLs is we'd inevitably be cutting some pretty promising players if we did that.

Figure Brace, Ty Warren, and this year's #1 (Jordan, for instance) as your starters.

Behind them we have four pretty excellent rotational players in Brace, Deaderick, Wright, and Pryor. And by "excellent," I mean that they're excellent backups. These are all promising players who contribute different things. Deaderick is a good run-stuffing 3-4 DE. Brace, as one poster mentioned, is a very good guy to put in 40 sub packages. Pryor is a good pass-rushing nose in sub packages as well. Wright, a good jack of all traders and good interior pass rusher. They're all still relatively young and, depending on Wright's health, good bets to be contributing linemen for years. It's tough to find NFL-quality linemen and it would be a shame to cut any of these guys loose, which is what we'd be doing if we picked up two more down linemen. As it is we're more or less automatically going to be cutting either one of those guys or Kyle Love in favor of a new draft choice.

I think it's too early for a full housecleaning at DL. There are some young players here who still need time to develop.[/QUOTE]