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Stop blaming the coordinators

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We cannot know the inner workings of the patriots. We can only look at the structure and results, and then make conclusions.
Hey I cant say if you are right or wrong, but you are building an entire argumnet based on facts you are guessing at.

IMHO, when Charlie and Romeo were here, there was no question that they were in charge of the offense and defense. Of course, Belichick had final say on their game plans and direction. And yes, that is simply my opinion based on my analysis.
But in 2001, it was BELICHICK that met every day with Brady to go over film and game plans, not Weis who was also the QB coach. How is that Weis being no question in charge of the offense?
What is your basis that they were? The success we had?

You make the assumption that because there is no one with the title of coordinator that surely there is someone other than Belichick performing the role.
No. I am saying that WE do not know the answer and there are certainly other possibilities than BB just deciding to double his work load. He handled it the way I suggested in the past, which is why I brought it up.

I make no such asssumption.
But you are the only one making assumptions and drawing conclusions based solely on them. To wit:

I simply accept that Belichick has decided that he doesn't need coordinators to oversee the offense and defensive.
I think everyone realizes that like McDaniels, OBrien is functioning as coordinator without title.

As you said in a different post, since there are no coordinators, then the responsibilities are spread out among several coaches. I agree with that position. However, we differ in our conclusion. My conclusion is that the defacto DC is Belichick. He all but said so in the offseason when he indicated that it would be he personally running the defense.
No. I suggested that as a logic guess, but we dont know. BB did not say he would be personally running the defense he said he would be more involved, actually I think he said very involved. Thats a good thing.


The offense has a different issue. Since Charlie left, I think the OC has been Tom Brady and whoever he worked with. Tom worked very well with Josh, and Josh did fine.
The OC is responsible for the offense, not just the QB.
Every indication is OBrien is doing the same job McDaniels did when he was OC sans title.

Again, I just think its fruitless to have an argument over a reality that only exists if we guess at what is happening behind closed doors that we will never get a window to.
 
I really don't find myself in a herd often and have not liked the coordinators in a while. This is not a new revelation for me. My point has not been dealt with. Coordinators make calls. Abandoning the run against even a good run defense is dumb. But you have to pick and chose your chances. I'm done with the example but the second and 3 was a perfect time to throw in a run. That's a coaching decision, not an execution thing.

But I give up, you're right, the game plan in the second half was fantastic. I don't see how it went wrong. Brady now sucks in the second half of games for the last year because, well, I guess that's just the way it is. The plays were there all over the field and we were so close. Just a little more execution would have made all the difference.

The players (Brady, Wilfork) say it was execution. The coach says it was execution. A look at the film by Curran/Ordway/DeOssie/Smerlas/Reiss says it was execution.

As for your "running" argument, here's something from another thread:

Here's the play-by-play breakdown, unless I erred (I used NFL.com). If there was a penalty on first down that resulted in another first down, I tallied the play that resulted in a penalty. I Hope it's got enough detail of what you were looking for.

2 run/4 pass on drive 1 (Missed FG)

6 run/0 pass on drive 2 (TD)

0 run/1 pass on drive 3 (Punt)

0 run/2 pass on drive 4 (TD)

1 run/2 pass on drive 5 (INT)

1 run/0 pass on drive 6 (Punt)

1 run/0 pass on drive 7 (INT)

1 run/2 pass on drive 8 (Punt)

0 run/5 pass on drive 9 (Fumble)

New England Patriots Forums - PatsFans.com Patriots Fan Messageboard

Despite your apparent claim to the contrary, they were still running in the second half.
 
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He's probably employed by the Pats PR department to defend them on message boards.

Again, when you post something like this about me, you demonstrate that have no idea what you're talking about.
 
Again, when you post something like this about me, you demonstrate that have no idea what you're talking about.

So, has it been all execution in every second half the past few seasons?
 
Quote from Brady:
“I think when it comes down to the second halves of these games, our level of toughness, we have to go out and play tougher. There were times where I think we had opportunities to do a better job out there and we didn’t. That’s all of us, starting with me. I have to do a better job leading this team and certainly executing better when it’s crunch time.”

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4683659/patriots-post-game-chatter-after-loss
 
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So, has it been all execution in every second half the past few seasons?

Yes, when the game pressure builds, good players raise the level of their game. Some of these young guys havent learned how to play through adversity, when the momentum swings the other way. Obviously the talents there and they play a good first half so the coaches must know what they're doing.
 
So, has it been all execution in every second half the past few seasons?
Nope, the execution has been bad in some and good in others.
Contrary to what you might think readng this board the Pats have not led at halftime and gone on to lose 18 straight games.
 
I said above the Brady throw that was intercepted at the 3 wasn't so bad. Like a good punt is the D hadn't coughed it up in the next series.

No it wasn't plain as day. It wasn;t strictly one on one as there was safety help on the 2nd interception. It's second and 3 why call a pass at all? Where was Fred Taylor?
There wasnt safety help the safety left his man when the ball was thrown.
Wish I knew where Taylor was. It has me concened. I find it much easier to believe he is lyng about an injury than that someone thought it would be wise to hand of to Green-Ellis 10 times.
 
This is basically what Bill said on WEEI today. Brady was following his progressions and reading coverage and acting accordingly. Same thing he did on the EZ bobble and the one handed TD grab. Thing is if that guy is making the play on his end only 20% of the time in game situations (although the game planning is based on he makes it 90% of the time in practice...) you got a problem, or a conundrum as the case may be.
I'm not ready to conclude it was an effort problem, but I am certain Moss didnt go top speed at that first Int. At this point I am willing to accept that he never expected to get the ball, and part of his game is he turns it on when he knows the ball is coming and lulls the db to sleep otherwise. I think thats the 'miscommunication' and the not giving away secrets he was talking about, but I surely hope it stops.
I really wish I could see his route on the 3rd and 7 that was overthrown by a yard or 2, but the camera angle excludes him.
 
Brady has put himself to a high standard that its weird seeing him suck like he did in that second half.He played awful in that playoff game against the ravens last year and his season was up and down.I am sure he will rebound against the bills but i wanna see him play well against these top teams with good defenses.
If you watch closely Brady wasnt nearly as bad as it looked at first.
 
Thank you for your expert analysis. I am sure that you are the world's foremost expert on the subject at hand and I am sure that the hundreds that DO believe that the coordinators were the MAJOR factor of the problems that occured yesterday, the week before in the second half, and a great majority of last years's games were strictly coincidental and trhat they all, like myself, will bow down to your learned expertise on the matter.

We are very fortunate to have such a great expert on hand to enlighten us all. I, and many others, really appreciate your expertise and await your next enlightening moment.

Keep up the good work. We need you to keep telling us how right you are and how wrong the vast majority in this forum are.
Dude, are you sure you arent in Arizona, used to be a ball boy for a semipro team, and used to have a 3 letter screen name that is now infamous among Patriot Fans?
 
Lack of adjustments *IS* a huge issue. The players look crappy because they are forcing plays that are ill conceived.
 
Thank you for your expert analysis. I am sure that you are the world's foremost expert on the subject at hand and I am sure that the hundreds that DO believe that the coordinators were the MAJOR factor of the problems that occured yesterday, the week before in the second half, and a great majority of last years's games were strictly coincidental and trhat they all, like myself, will bow down to your learned expertise on the matter.

We are very fortunate to have such a great expert on hand to enlighten us all. I, and many others, really appreciate your expertise and await your next enlightening moment.

Keep up the good work. We need you to keep telling us how right you are and how wrong the vast majority in this forum are.

When Weis was the coordinator, it was NEM who was insane in his attacks about it. With McDaniels, it was Maverick4. You're just stepping up into a line of people who take the easy way out and use the coordinators as the scapegoats.
 
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You really do not get the point, do you? Of clurse they havent gone on and lost 18 straight games.

Many of last years games they won, but barely held on in the second halves after building up a significan lead. Perhaps you forgot how many games we all sweated out in the second half after opponents either made it close, or actually came back to win.
How many? Our wins were by 1,16,6,59,28,10,17,10,7 and 28
Which of those were abysmal 2nd half failures?
Buff win by 1, we were trailing at half
Bmore win by 6 second half was 14-10
2nd Buff won by 7, allowed 1 second half score, never really threatened
The rest were double digit wins. Where is the 2nd half meltdown???
In the losses, we chunked the 2nd half vs Jets, Miami, Denver and Indy (altohugh we win with a correct spot)
Houston is irrelevant because we cleared the bench with a big lead that the backups blew to a team fighting for a playoff spot.
That is 4 games last year, one out of 4. Add yesterday and its 5 of out 18.
How is 5 times out of 18 a systemic problem that occurs all of the time?
Its not, its just what you have chosen to whine about.

Perhaps the win last week has blocked your mind to the fact that we had built up a huge lead in the first half and yet, in the second half cincinnati closed to within a touchdown....
When did they get within a TD? There is no point having a discussion if you think protecting a 31-3 lead and giving up TDs in a prevent defense when the other team never had a chance to get back in the game is a bad thing.

Winning makes people forget the facts, and the facts of that game were very reminiscent to yesterdays game,
They were not even close. We called off the dogs and sat in prevent defense. Wow, you are so far off the mark here its scary.

except we didnt have a comfortable lead coming out of the first half, and the jets made adjustments, we didnt. Plain and simple.
We made plenty of adjustments. You just dont want to look at the facts because they dont support your claim. We threw almost exclusively to recveivers covered by LBs in the first half, and almost exclusively at receivers covered by corners in the 2nd half. How is that not an adjustment? He attacked single coverage on Moss in the 2nd half. How is that not an adjustment?
We played different personell groups on defense in the 2nd half and played a lot more nickel because they were throwing more. How is that not an adjustment?
They we executed poorly but they were still adjustments.


You know sir, I find you to be very educated as far as X's and O's go. Much more than I am. But I understand human nature, and human functions much better, and realize, and accept, that not everything revolves around those X's and O's. There is much more to the mind facet of the game than the physical facet. The mind portion has total control over how the physical facet will turn out.
So, you are saying you are wrong, but now you are right because you know people so your idea of the mental aspect of the game is now why you are right? Whats next, a seance with Lombardi?

Much, much more goes into the human intelligence level, and the willingness to see, and accept, when something you are trying to accomplish is not working, and change to something else, even if it casts a bad shadow on what your original plans were.
Do you know what BBs response was today when he was asked at what point you start making adjustments? After the first play.

Are you thinking that a game plan is a guess of what the other team is going to do and only prepares for that possibility? A game plan is preparation for whatever they are going to do, whatever situations may come up, and a plan to deal with all eventualities. The game plan is molded throughout the game, its not a prescripted story of what they are going to do.

Sir, you sound like a very knowledgeable person on the technicalities of the game of football, but very weak on common understanding of the principles that go into the planning, the adjustments, and changes that must occur in order to be successful.
And you are basing this on what?

And right now, as it has been for a year plus, this team is lacking in that facet of the game and it is effecting everything else.
They have had bad 2nd half performances that cost them games (or almost did) 5 times in 18 games. I think any team can play poorly in half of 5 out of 18 games without ignorance of adjustment.

Hopefully you will see what I am referring to. You seem to think that the right thing to do is to agree with what appears to be a small clique of long time posters.... no matter what evidence is thrown at you... and you have disdain for all others.
Bud, you are really really reaching now. Who am I agreeing with? I gave my own independent opinions in this thread all along. You are the one who is avoiding the evidence. 5/18s does not equal a high percentage. Look at the plays. They tell the story.

Perhaps you, too, need a lesson in humility. And, I say this as one Pats fan to another, with a common goal....
Dude, you have repeated the same thing 1000 times today, and totally ignored every point made by anyone else, and you are looking for someone else to be humble?
I think my suggestion before was the best. We should just not respond to each others posts because we are speaking an entirely different language.
 
Lack of adjustments *IS* a huge issue. The players look crappy because they are forcing plays that are ill conceived.
Which plays?
Please dont tell me you are going to say its bad offense to throw the ball to Randy Moss in single coverage with no help.
 
Sounds like interesting company.

As far as using coordinators as scapegoats, lets take a look at this forum after yesterday's game. Why is it the easy way out when, in fact, there very well might be truth to it. See below......

Someone, and I cant remember who, started a poll to see if the coordinators are the problem with failure to make adjustments. The last I looked, 116 saiod yes and only 22 said no.

Now, there is this, another thread in this forum which sheds even more light onto the topic and it appears that YES, there certainly is an adjustment problem.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...on-patriots-2nd-half-adjustment-problems.html

If you disagree, thats your choice, but why denegrate those that believe different than you, and now, with that new thread, there appears to be well documented proof, including some fromTed Bruschi that suggests that the Patriots do, in fact, have an adjustment problem.

Probably because the leader of the defense (Wilfork), the leader of the offense (Brady) and the leader of the team (Belichick) stated otherwise, and people who went back and re-watched the game found that there were, indeed, open receivers that Brady did not look to in the second half.

Every team's fan base cries about the coordinators. It's a football universal, and it has a corollary with NBA head coaches, MLB managers and NHL head coaches. It's easier to blame the guy calling plays than it is to admit that the players on your team stunk out the joint, and it's easier to pretend that you could call a game better than the professionals than it is to pretend that you could play the game better than NFL caliber football players.

Arguing individual calls is perfectly sensible. Arguing game plan after game plan, especially when you're dealing with the best team of the past 10 years, is idiotic.
 
The best team THEN, not NOW. And it very well could be a big difference in coaching philosophy and in game adjustments not being made.

Fans are fans, and discussing a problem, and the documented truth does indicate that there certainly is a problem, so just because a team, any team, may have been the best of the past ten years, the key in that statement is the word "past" And that being said, investigation should be done to see whay they are not the best team now.. It's not just execution. It goes far deeper than that.
So the coach that is reknowned as an expert gameplanner and a master at making adjustments which led to that 10 years of being the most successful team in the leagie all of a sudden forgot it all and his acumen has sunk below yours.
Belichick is now less insightful on gameplanning than you are and if he would only listen to you, then it would fix everything.
 
What adjustment are you claiming the Jets made that the Patriots didn't counter?

I'd probably rather gouge my eyes out then watch that game again, but I may have to. I would say the main adjustment the Jets made was to send less rushers overall, and keep more in coverage.

If I had to say what adjustments the Pats did not make in return, its that they continued to run quick timing plays and vertical routes in expectation of pressure. Notably Brady's 2nd INT. I think that was a quick 3 step drop and release. The reality was he had plenty of time and had the playcall afforded him time to scan the field, he would've noticed Tate wide open for what would've been 6 (with Tate's speed).

Breer was on CSN last night and said the Jets players explicitly said after the game that they thought their coaching staff was one step ahead of the Patriots, and that the Patriots did not counter their adjustments. This is directly from Jets players.

I'm not arguing with you that execution cost us the game. It did. Brady's accuracy nose-dived in the 2nd half. Whether the 2nd INT to Moss was a poor read or not, whether it was the right playcall or not, he could've put that ball in a place where Moss could catch it - and he did not. So, in that sense, yes, absolutely - Brady, Moss, Butler, etc. cost us the game with their execution. I am only arguing that coaching was a factor, as well.
 
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Arguing individual calls is perfectly sensible. Arguing game plan after game plan, especially when you're dealing with the best team of the past 10 years, is idiotic.

I don't think this point has any validity in it. The Patriot teams that won so many games and elevated the team to "Best team of the decade" status is not the same team we are seeing now. Different coordinators, different players.

A better indication to how this team will perform this year is to look at last year's team. Same coordinators, same key players. How much the team develops as the year goes on is unkown, but to talk about this team and relate it to the team that merited "the best team of the decade" is misleading.

Regarding who to blame, i don't know what you are trying to say if we can't blame the coordinators. From what I saw and from reading a lot of other posters and analysts (including Bruschi) observations, adjustments needed to be made. Who else has a hand in making adjustments other than the coordinators and Bill? People can always say, "hey the players didn't execute." But ask yourself this question, were the players put in the best position to succeed?
 
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