Tom Brady Was the Most-Hit QB in the League, from 2006-2007

[maverick4]

couldn't it also be argued that Great QBs are attacked more by a more agressive Defense because the Coordinator of that defense realizes he needs to take the head of the snake?

I mean, why would you all out blitz a guy like Jackson in Minnesota? He's not going to "beat you". For the Vikings, you attack Peterson first. Why would you attack Jake Delhoume or Kerry Collins? They aren't going to kill you. But Brady, Manning, McNabb, you send everything you got at them to take them out of their game. Breese, Rivers, you attack as hard as possible. Rex Grossman, Chad Pennington, Jeff Garcia, Matt Schaub, Jason Campbell, JT Osullivan, these guys aren't going to Beat you if you have a great defense already. Sure you blitz once in a while, but not like when you play the Elite QBs of the league. You unleash the kitchen sink at Manning and Brady, you ease up and play a safe soft run support zone and keep everything in front of you for those runnning backs and can't hit a 20 yard out QBs.

Just saying, the defenses adjust to the better QBs more agressively and that could be a reason why some of the Best QBs in the league are hit as much as they are.

It's a very legit point, to which I would point to the late Elway Broncos teams. You knew Elway could play at an elite level, but they weren't a pass heavy team, and they won 2 rings from playing that way.

 

[Rob0729]

West Coast is quick, timed short passes and hitting receivers in stride. Our offense is more similar to the old Vikings or Rams or Colts offenses.

Huh? No it isn't. What did you just pick three high powered offenses and decide to say that the Pats are like that?

Like the old Vikes? What pre-Dennis Green, Randy Moss, Daunte Culpepper Vikings maybe since I can't remember what they ran. The Dennis Green Vikings offense is nothing like the one the Pats run. Daunte Culpepper is too stupid to run the Pats' offense. There were no presnap reads and it relied on Culpepper's size and speed to give the receivers time to get down field so he can lunge it up.

The Rams' offense is a loose disciple of the Air Coryal offense which you would love because it relies heavily on the play action pass. The Greatest Show on Turf offense used a 5 receiver base (the Pats rarely use five receivers. The Chargers now run a very similiar offense as the Rams' offense.

The Colts offense is different too. They don't use the spread offense nearly as much. They use a lot more two receiver sets.

The Pats the last few years are running a modified version of Urban Meyer's spread offense.

 

[Rob0729]

It's a very legit point, to which I would point to the late Elway Broncos teams. You knew Elway could play at an elite level, but they weren't a pass heavy team, and they won 2 rings from playing that way.

The addition of a HOF caliber RB can help any team. The reason why the Broncos didn't win Super Bowls earlier in his career was because a few of those teams Elway had to carry the team because of the talent around him on both sides of the ball was not great. He did go to three Super Bowls in the 80s though when the NFC was a far superior conference which is pretty damn impressive. Elway did lose one of the Super Bowls against a pass happy 49ers with Montana passing for nearly 300 yards and 5 TDs.

Also, Elway threw for 336 in his Super Bowl win against Atlanta while Terrell Davis ran for 102 yards. So it wasn't like he didn't air it out.

 

[Dino 6 Rings]

It's a very legit point, to which I would point to the late Elway Broncos teams. You knew Elway could play at an elite level, but they weren't a pass heavy team, and they won 2 rings from playing that way.

Yeah, but my point is regardless of "style" of offense being run by the Elite QB, the thing that makes him Elite is his Throwing ability and Game Knowledge. Any QB can have a Cannon Arm, its the guys like Elway, Manning, Marino, Montana, Brady, that you have to Game Plan for from a defensive perspective.

Jamarcus Russell doesn't worry me if I'm a defensive coordinator at this point. I'm going to kill McFadden first and stuff their running game.

Breese, I'm going to try and Rip his Head off in the first quarter and completely take him out of his game with zone blitzs and hidden defensive schemes that he didn't see on tape. Same goes for going against of the the Best QBs in the league. Quinn in Cleveland, I'll let him try to beat me while I bottle up their running game. Flacco, same thing. He isn't going to go 30 of 42 for 375 with 4 Tds on my defense. Brady or Manning sure has heck could (and probably have). That's the difference. The best guys get attacked differently, have entire defensive scheme's designed around their ability to throw, but more than that, their ability to Read the Defense and their personal knowledge of the game and what they are seeing.

 

[maverick4]

Yeah, but my point is regardless of "style" of offense being run by the Elite QB, the thing that makes him Elite is his Throwing ability and Game Knowledge. Any QB can have a Cannon Arm, its the guys like Elway, Manning, Marino, Montana, Brady, that you have to Game Plan for from a defensive perspective.

The best guys get attacked differently, have entire defensive scheme's designed around their ability to throw, but more than that, their ability to Read the Defense and their personal knowledge of the game and what they are seeing.

Good points. To respond, in some or many of these cases, these defenses game plan around those offensive stars because their team makes that player the focal point of the offense. I'm not too sure that applies to the Elway example though. Later in his career Elway was still an elite passer and teams had to game plan for his ability, but those championship Broncos teams did not make Elway the focal point of the offense. Elway was still effective and elite when called upon, but didn't have ridiculous stats, and those teams weren't known as devastating passing offenses.

 

[unoriginal]

I like how we're calling the 1997-1998 Broncos the "late Elway" Broncos, like their best asset was a 37 year old QB. The late Elway Broncos teams are properly called the Terrell Davis Broncos teams.

If we really wanted to protect Tom Brady we could run our starting running back ~400 times a season, like Terrell Davis or 2004 with Corey Dillon. Of course, that would mean getting a new star running back every 1 or 2 years, instead of a new QB every 10.

 

[maverick4]

I like how we're calling the 1997-1998 Broncos the "late Elway" Broncos, like their best asset was a 37 year old QB. The late Elway Broncos teams are properly called the Terrell Davis Broncos teams.

If we really wanted to protect Tom Brady we could run our starting running back ~400 times a season, like Terrell Davis or 2004 with Corey Dillon. Of course, that would mean getting a new star running back every 1 or 2 years, instead of a new QB every 10.

Elway was still an elite QB during those years, and still had good production. We have a potential three or four headed monster at RB. Why not use them and be known as more of a rushing team? It's not like we don't have the talent at RB or TE.

 

[Rob0729]

Elway was still an elite QB during those years, and still have good production. We have a potential three or four headed monster at RB. Why not use them and be known as more of a rushing team? It's not like we don't have the talent at RB or TE.

Maybe if the three or four headed monster at RB were all healthy at the same time, the Pats might consider it. The biggest issue at RB the last few years has been the ability to field health RBs on any given week. There has been games the last few years where the Pats have gone with BJGE or Heath Evans or Patrick Pass (at least in 2005 for Pass) as their starting RB and the depth didn't go much deeper than them. In the last two years, Sammy Morris has played 19 games. Maroney missed most of last year. Lamont Jordan missed about half of last year. The reason the Pats carry 4 or 5 RBs is because the Pats have had problems keeping RBs healthy not so much to have a multiheaded monster.

BTW, the Pats were 4th in rushing attempts and sixth in rushing yards in 2008, 13th in rushing yards and 9th in attempts in 2007, and 12th in rushing yards and 6th in rushing attempts in 2006. So the Pats have been above average to a top team in rushing over the last three years. The Pats were in the top 10 in rushing attempts every year. They were in the top 6 twice during that time. This whole "The Pats only air out the ball" is a misnomer.

 

[Deus Irae]

Maybe if the three or four headed monster at RB were all healthy at the same time, the Pats might consider it. The biggest issue at RB the last few years has been the ability to field health RBs on any given week. There has been games the last few years where the Pats have gone with BJGE or Heath Evans or Patrick Pass (at least in 2005 for Pass) as their starting RB and the depth didn't go much deeper than them. In the last two years, Sammy Morris has played 19 games. Maroney missed most of last year. Lamont Jordan missed about half of last year. The reason the Pats carry 4 or 5 RBs is because the Pats have had problems keeping RBs healthy not so much to have a multiheaded monster.

BTW, the Pats were 4th in rushing attempts and sixth in rushing yards in 2008, 13th in rushing yards and 9th in attempts in 2007, and 12th in rushing yards and 6th in rushing attempts in 2006. So the Pats have been above average to a top team in rushing over the last three years. The Pats were in the top 10 in rushing attempts every year. They were in the top 6 twice during that time. This whole "The Pats only air out the ball" is a misnomer.

There's a shock.


Hey, have we gotten those hit numbers for 2005 and earlier yet?

 

[TriplecHamp]

Huh? No it isn't. What did you just pick three high powered offenses and decide to say that the Pats are like that?

Like the old Vikes? What pre-Dennis Green, Randy Moss, Daunte Culpepper Vikings maybe since I can't remember what they ran. The Dennis Green Vikings offense is nothing like the one the Pats run. Daunte Culpepper is too stupid to run the Pats' offense. There were no presnap reads and it relied on Culpepper's size and speed to give the receivers time to get down field so he can lunge it up.

The Rams' offense is a loose disciple of the Air Coryal offense which you would love because it relies heavily on the play action pass. The Greatest Show on Turf offense used a 5 receiver base (the Pats rarely use five receivers. The Chargers now run a very similiar offense as the Rams' offense.

The Colts offense is different too. They don't use the spread offense nearly as much. They use a lot more two receiver sets.

The Pats the last few years are running a modified version of Urban Meyer's spread offense.

1) actually if you watched the Vikings offense the year they were the best team in the NFC during the reg season the offense is similar to what we run route wise. Randall Cunningham was the QB for that team btw. But I don't know why you think Cullpeper is too stupid to run our offense. You act like our offense is only made for certain people to run.

2) Our offense is nothing like Urban Meyers spread offense because Meyer runs an option-spread. Some of the formations are the same but route wise they have a very different route tree than the Pats. I know because I am a Gator fan and Ive been watching them as well as the Pats.

 

[Rob0729]

1) actually if you watched the Vikings offense the year they were the best team in the NFC during the reg season the offense is similar to what we run route wise. Randall Cunningham was the QB for that team btw. But I don't know why you think Cullpeper is too stupid to run our offense. You act like our offense is only made for certain people to run.

2) Our offense is nothing like Urban Meyers spread offense because Meyer runs an option-spread. Some of the formations are the same but route wise they have a very different route tree than the Pats. I know because I am a Gator fan and Ive been watching them as well as the Pats.

1.) You have to be smart to run the Pats offense. It is well known that the Pats have more presnap reads than just about any offense in the league. There has been several WRs who have failed with the Pats because they were too dumb to know their own presnap route adjustments, how do you think a dumb QB would handle this offense when they have to know every WR's presnap route adjustments. The biggest knock on Culpepper over his career was that he can't read defenses, how do you expect him to run an offense that the receivers' routes are based on what the defense shows before the snap?

As for prior to Culpepper, I tend to doubt it eventhough I can't remember. The Pats rely heavily on presnap adjustments and Dennis Green has never seemed to really rely on this.

BTW, most offense are QB specific. There aren't many or any QB who can run every type of offense. Of course there is a required skill set to run the Pats' offense that not every QB has and you can say that for pretty much the other 31 offenses too.

2.) Absolutely nothing. Do you think that Meyers would run so many plays out of the shotgun in a spread like the Pats does? Meyers hates the shotgun. LOL! It is well known that Meyers has a strong influence on the Patriots' offense the last few years. The Pats have spent almost every offseason since 2005 in Florida exchanging ideas with Meyers. The Pats have run a modified version of Meyer's offense for a couple of years now. It had to be modified because few college offensive systems can work in the NFL without a decent amount of tweaking since it is a different game in many ways.

 

[DaBruinz]

1) actually if you watched the Vikings offense the year they were the best team in the NFC during the reg season the offense is similar to what we run route wise. Randall Cunningham was the QB for that team btw. But I don't know why you think Cullpeper is too stupid to run our offense. You act like our offense is only made for certain people to run.

2) Our offense is nothing like Urban Meyers spread offense because Meyer runs an option-spread. Some of the formations are the same but route wise they have a very different route tree than the Pats. I know because I am a Gator fan and Ive been watching them as well as the Pats.

Since when to the Pats NOT run an Option Offense? Whether it be in the spread formation or otherwise? Seriously, you keep making statements that you can't back up with fact.

As for Culpepper, he was horrible at reading defenses. That's why he couldn't run the Pats offense.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Since when to the Pats NOT run an Option Offense? Whether it be in the spread formation or otherwise? Seriously, you keep making statements that you can't back up with fact.

As for Culpepper, he was horrible at reading defenses. That's why he couldn't run the Pats offense.

I pretty sure you are joking with that bolded statement so I wont comment on that until i'm sure. And Im pretty sure Rob cant read a defense but I wouldn't call him stupid. I think that Culpepper would be able to run our offense. I dont think he wouldn't be my first choice but he can manage this offense.

 

[TriplecHamp]

1.) You have to be smart to run the Pats offense. It is well known that the Pats have more presnap reads than just about any offense in the league. There has been several WRs who have failed with the Pats because they were too dumb to know their own presnap route adjustments, how do you think a dumb QB would handle this offense when they have to know every WR's presnap route adjustments. The biggest knock on Culpepper over his career was that he can't read defenses, how do you expect him to run an offense that the receivers' routes are based on what the defense shows before the snap?

As for prior to Culpepper, I tend to doubt it eventhough I can't remember. The Pats rely heavily on presnap adjustments and Dennis Green has never seemed to really rely on this.

BTW, most offense are QB specific. There aren't many or any QB who can run every type of offense. Of course there is a required skill set to run the Pats' offense that not every QB has and you can say that for pretty much the other 31 offenses too.

2.) Absolutely nothing. Do you think that Meyers would run so many plays out of the shotgun in a spread like the Pats does? Meyers hates the shotgun. LOL! It is well known that Meyers has a strong influence on the Patriots' offense the last few years. The Pats have spent almost every offseason since 2005 in Florida exchanging ideas with Meyers. The Pats have run a modified version of Meyer's offense for a couple of years now. It had to be modified because few college offensive systems can work in the NFL without a decent amount of tweaking since it is a different game in many ways.

You do know that the spread started in college right? Urban's spread offense is different than ours but the formations are similar for the most part. Different styles and different routes.

 

[maverick4]

Do you think that Meyers would run so many plays out of the shotgun in a spread like the Pats does?

It may be months after the fact, at least you can now admit the recent Pats offense was predominantly spread out of the shotgun.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I pretty sure you are joking with that bolded statement so I wont comment on that until i'm sure. And Im pretty sure Rob cant read a defense but I wouldn't call him stupid. I think that Culpepper would be able to run our offense. I dont think he wouldn't be my first choice but he can manage this offense.

If his job was to know how to read defenses, and he had some of the best coaches out there willing to teach him, I'm sure he'd figure it out

 

[Rob0729]

It may be months after the fact, at least you can now admit the recent Pats offense was predominantly spread out of the shotgun.

LOL! Who ever denied it? The numbers say that the Pats use the shotgun more than any other team. That was never the argument. I argued that like in the Meyers' system you can run running plays our of the shotgun. You said that running plays out of the shotgun made the Pats predictable because everyone knew they were going to pass. I said it didn't because you didn't know if they were going to pass or run or thrrow deep or a quick screen.

 

[Rob0729]

You do know that the spread started in college right? Urban's spread offense is different than ours but the formations are similar for the most part. Different styles and different routes.

The offenses are very similiar and Belichick doesn't hide the fact that Meyers has been very influencial on the Patriots' system in recent years. No the Pats don't use the QB option play very often since they have Tom Brady and not Tim Tebow, but they modified it with a RB option instead.

The style is very similiar and so are many of the routes. Belichick cannot just duplicate Meyers' offense in the NFL. Many of the aspects of it do not work in the NFL (like the QB option used so heavily). Other than Michael Vick, I can't remember a QB rushing over 150 times a season in the NFL and having any real success. Even a guy like Culpepper who ran a lot never rushed for over 106 times in a season. Tebow rushed 210 times in 2007 and 178 times in 2008. Also certain routes will not work in the NFL because DBs are stronger, faster, and bigger.

To say they are different is ridiculous since the Pats don't hide the fact that Meyers has been a strong influence on the offense.

 

[Rob0729]

I pretty sure you are joking with that bolded statement so I wont comment on that until i'm sure. And Im pretty sure Rob cant read a defense but I wouldn't call him stupid. I think that Culpepper would be able to run our offense. I dont think he wouldn't be my first choice but he can manage this offense.

First, the option doesn't have to be run by a QB a version of the option is to stand in the shotgun to pass and then hand it off to the running back. That is how the Pats use the option. Unfortunately, for all his gifts, Brady is not the most fleet of foot so the Pats have to improvise in the option area.

As for reading defenses, I haven't spent most of my life playing QB and my entire adult life playing the position at the college and pro level. My inability to read defense would be more of a lack of experience than a lack of intelligence. I guarantee you that if I played QB as long as Culpepper and at the same levels that I would be able to read defenses far better than he could.

If you think Culpepper could run the Pats' offense either you don't know enough about the Pats' offense or Culpepper. The reason why Culpepper sucks so bad now was because he was all about using his speed and cannon of an arm that he never developed the celebral part of the game. Now that his knee injury has stripped him of his speed, his lack of being able to read defenses, make quick decisions, and check off receivers has made him a mediocre QB (all those skills are mandatory for the Pats' offense). Culpepper would be the worst option for the Pats' offense even before his injury.

 

[DarrylS]

Not going to read 22 pages of posts, but what do they mean by hits???

A gentle nudge that sometimes occurs, or a real hit??

Another question could this be a function of so many short screens and short passes when the let the rushers outrun the play??