Stop blaming the coordinators

[Ring 6]

The fact on third and seven on that drive instead of trying to get a first down and having Brady hucking deep down the field to Moss was a good call? Like I say, when you need seven yards to keep the drive alive in a game you are only down by seven, throw it for forty on third down. This drive is a clear case where a bad play call ended the drive. This is typical of Brady/O'Brien. There doesn't seem to be much patience when the Pats are down late in the game.

1. New England Patriots at 13:24
2. 1-10-NE 11 (13:24) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 81-R.Moss. PENALTY on NYJ-31-A.Cromartie, Illegal Contact, 5 yards, enforced at NE 11 - No Play.
3. 1-10-NE 16 (13:20) 33-K.Faulk left end to NE 24 for 8 yards (30-D.Coleman). NE-33-K.Faulk was injured during the play.
4. 2-2-NE 24 (12:51) 42-B.Green-Ellis left guard to NE 26 for 2 yards (91-S.Pouha).
5. 1-10-NE 26 (12:12) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 82-A.Crumpler.
6. 2-10-NE 26 (12:07) 42-B.Green-Ellis right guard to NE 29 for 3 yards (70-M.Devito, 92-S.Ellis).
7. 3-7-NE 29 (11:23) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to 81-R.Moss.
8. 4-7-NE 29 (11:17) 14-Z.Mesko punts 38 yards to NYJ 33, Center-47-J.Ingram. 36-J.Leonhard to NYJ 37 for 4 yards (18-M.Slater).

Just gave you an example of lousy play calling ending a drive. I question the BJGE run on second down in that drive. Should have been first down. I personally hate the throw on first down and if it is incomplete, run on second down. But that is just me.

The play call is not 'Throw deep to Moss'
The play call is a series of routes. They are all in combination with each other to attack the field. Almost every play has a receiver going to the deep part of the field.
On each play, the QB has progressions that differ based upon the coverage the defense plays. I would imagine almost every pass play in our playbook has a progression philosophy that says if you have single coverage on the WR and there no safery help. that WR (Moss) is your first read.
If you are saying throwing the ball deep to Moss vs man coverage with no help was a poor choice, frankly the OC is the last one to blame.

 

[Ring 6]

...... NEM redux.

No kidding I really think it is NEM.

 

[condon84]

What adjustment are you claiming the Jets made that the Patriots didn't counter?

Is this a joke?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Brady's execution was not poor. I hope no one is at least, and I am certainly not.

But isn't it possible that O'Brien could have called plays that would lead to better execution by Brady?

Brady's poor execution does not eliminate the possibility that O'Brien's coaching was flawed. Does it? Brady, like any player, has strengths and weaknesses, and certain plays have - in their nature - a higher or lower percentage of working to begin with. Isn't it possible that O'Brien could have called higher percentage plays that Brady could have executed as well as he was in the first half?

That's all I'm saying, it doesn't have to be one or the other. A player's execution of the play is directly linked to the likelihood that it was going to be executed from the geto. A lot of the plays in the 2nd half were high-risk/high-reward plays when they didn't necessarily need to be. They were not facing the same kind of pressure we're used to seeing from a Rex Ryan defense.

OK, wait a minute. It doesn't have to be either in your example.

They practice these plays in that thing called practice. Plays don't make it into a game plan unless everyone is comfortable and capable of executing them. While someone sends in a play to Brady except in hurry up, Brady adjusts the call at the LOS based on his pre snap read of the defense and he reads his target progression based on the post snap coverage read. Belichick said on Monday he didn't see any problems with Brady progressions. There are options and adjustments on every playcall depending on what the defense in fact does, for the receivers as well as the QB. Manning runs a different system where they send in multiple plays and he decides on one at the LOS based on his pre snap read. He's reading the defense and not counting on his targets to as well or to adapt to multiple adjustments post snap. The options and adjustments within each play called are more limited. Success is predicated on timing and execution. It is here too although the process is more complex because of the post snap adjustments. One example, I have no idea if Tom underthrew an open Crumpler or if Crumpler failed to adjust the route depth post snap based on the coverage or if Crumpler adjusted to something he saw that Tom didn't or if someone else missed an assignment or adjustment and that resulted in Brady rushing the throw or Crumpler altering the route. Generally speaking when a QB makes a mistake, he acknowledges it. When he and his receiver aren't on the same page, or someone else screws up, it's still a mistake in execution as opposed to play calling, players often refer to it as a miscommunication - as Moss did on the first pick Sunday - but it's debateable whose mistake it was. Usually the coaches film tells the tale in the context of what should have happened that would have worked...

Players are retained or not here based on value, and a big part of that equation is the evaluation of their performance. If this team is willing to pay Brady more than any QB in the league at this time, it's because they don't see him making a lot of costly mistakes and they aren't concerned about the consistency of his performance.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Seeing as you appear to be one of Icy's "long timers" please enlighten all of us newbie dummies with your expertise.

Learning is good.

You're getting it now ... yes Andy is one of the great football minds in our forum.

 

[emoney_33]

I promise you if a monkey were calling plays, he would be defended.

 

[Deus Irae]

Is this a joke?

No...........

 

[cmasspatsfan]

Originally Posted by aluminum seats
Wow, this has definitely reached the point of diminishing returns.


You really thought it would be fruitful?

A discussion where we are missing most of the variables that coaches would need to analyze the team.

this thread is a discussion of analyzing the team from a Fox telecast. Wow!

We can tend to overdo things here on patsfans.com don't we? I read every word on this thread so maybe I should hit myself in the head with a tire iron. :bricks:

 

[Ring 6]

So, you are 100% sure that the particular play in discussion had a series of progression and that it wasn't called for Moss, period. You can, unequivicably say that, right?

Apparently you must have the frequency in which the play is sent to Brady's helmet receiver. Can you give it to all of us so we can listen in, too.

Now, if the OC can not be blamed, who then can be blamed. Please give us a series of progression as to the order of whom we can blame, if anyone can be blamed.

Seeing as you appear to be one of Icy's "long timers" please enlighten all of us newbie dummies with your expertise.

Learning is good.

There is only one pass play that is designed to go to only one receiver a screen.
BB has discussed this concept many, many times in press conferences.

If your complaint with the OC is that he calls to many "Throw deep to Moss" plays, you should just stop the conversation.
What I described is Football 101.
You dont need to listen to the play call to know the OC doesnt call "Lomg to Moss" you just have to have a rudimentary understanding of what a pass play is.

 

[Ring 6]

We can tend to overdo things here on patsfans.com don't we? I read every word on this thread so maybe I should hit myself in the head with a tire iron. :bricks:

Pure genius would have been tire iron INSTEAD of reading

 

[condon84]

The play call is not 'Throw deep to Moss'
The play call is a series of routes. They are all in combination with each other to attack the field. Almost every play has a receiver going to the deep part of the field.
On each play, the QB has progressions that differ based upon the coverage the defense plays. I would imagine almost every pass play in our playbook has a progression philosophy that says if you have single coverage on the WR and there no safery help. that WR (Moss) is your first read.
If you are saying throwing the ball deep to Moss vs man coverage with no help was a poor choice, frankly the OC is the last one to blame.

OCs call plays depending on the down and distance. OCs design plays to give the QBs first read the best chance to get the ball on passing plays. Brady ran the play that our OC called, which our OC designed. OBrien called the play on 3rd and 2 which got intercepted. If Moss was the first read going deep on a 3rd and 2, why did OBrien call that play knowing we only needed a short distance. If Moss wasn't the first read, then the play design was poor because it obviously didn't open up the first option.

 

[PatsChamp88]

?????????????
You don't blame the coordinators for the predictability of the running of the offense and defense? So, who do you blame?

Myself!

 

[Ring 6]

I promise you if a monkey were calling plays, he would be defended.

Mirror. We had the highest scoring offense in NFL history and the playcalling was criticized.
Nothing is more over used than blaming the play calling.
Actually I dont see much defending going on just a lot of pointing out that the blame the play called approach is based on poor methodology.



I mean we have people who actually think the problem is that the OC dials up Brady and sends in:
"Sent Moss deep and heave it up to him"
I can't even make up stuff that funny

 

[Rob0729]

The play call is not 'Throw deep to Moss'
The play call is a series of routes. They are all in combination with each other to attack the field. Almost every play has a receiver going to the deep part of the field.
On each play, the QB has progressions that differ based upon the coverage the defense plays. I would imagine almost every pass play in our playbook has a progression philosophy that says if you have single coverage on the WR and there no safery help. that WR (Moss) is your first read.
If you are saying throwing the ball deep to Moss vs man coverage with no help was a poor choice, frankly the OC is the last one to blame.

My problem is not that match ups it is that they are taking a big risk on third down in the fourth quarter down by a TD. You don't take a risk on third and seven in the fourth quarter, down by seven where your defense hasn't been able to stop the other team and have been playing on their heels. It is situational football. You need to pick up the first down, keep the drive alive, and give your defense a rest while either cutting down the lead or tying the game. Moss was getting single coverage a lot in that game and that is a play for first or second down in that situation. Especially since the last third down on man coverage on Moss on a deep ball on third and 13 was intercepted.

If Moss was consistantly beating man coverage, I might agree with you. But Moss was not catching balls with man coverage by Cromartie.

If in this situation the Pats feel the logical first read should be Moss deep on every third and long even when it isn't working, then it is clear they over rely on Moss. The Pats needed to keep their defense off the field and score points and they chose a low percentage play on third and long. And yes, even to Moss, a deep pass is a low percentage play. If it was the first quarter or the Pats were up and this would put a nail in the Jets' coffin, that might be another story. But in the fourth quarter down by seven with your defense unable to stop a Pop Warner offense, you don't take that type of shot on third down.

 

[emoney_33]

Mirror. We had the highest scoring offense in NFL history and the playcalling was criticized.
Nothing is more over used than blaming the play calling.
Actually I dont see much defending going on just a lot of pointing out that the blame the play called approach is based on poor methodology.

Yes, I agree the ridiculous and unwarranted bashing of the OC for the last decade had gotten ludicrous. However, I don't think O'Brien deserves to get an automatic pass here. BB clearly feels he is lacking something at this point in his career otherwise he would have been named OC (ala McDaniels). As with most things, we as fans don't have enough information to make factually-backed accurate specific criticisms. But worry about O'Brien's effect on the offense is not unwarranted IMHO.

I mean we have people who actually think the problem is that the OC dials up Brady and sends in:
"Sent Moss deep and heave it up to him"
I can't even make up stuff that funny

It's hard to weed out the legit criticism and the type that's been going on for a decade I agree.

 

[Ring 6]

OCs call plays depending on the down and distance. OCs design plays to give the QBs first read the best chance to get the ball on passing plays. Brady ran the play that our OC called, which our OC designed. OBrien called the play on 3rd and 2 which got intercepted. If Moss was the first read going deep on a 3rd and 2, why did OBrien call that play knowing we only needed a short distance. If Moss wasn't the first read, then the play design was poor because it obviously didn't open up the first option.

So what you are saying is any play that isnt successful is a bad play call?
The OC is supposed to be able to call a play that guarantees the first option will be open. And do so regardles of what defense the opponent plays?
There was no int on 3rd and 2.
On 2nd and 3, Moss was one on one Brady did an on purpose underthrow, a good throw and Moss tried to catch it with one hand and couldnt. If he used 2, we would be calling it a great 20 yard play on 2nd and 3.
The 3rd and 13, Moss never expected the ball, and didnt go hard after it, or it would have been complete. The first option stopped his route (according to Simms) but the play call got Moss in single coverage with no safety help on 3rd and 13. That is a HUGE win in a play call. Moss half-assing it led to an Int.
But all that aside your standard is ridiculous.
You are acting like its playing Madden vs the computer at beginner level.

 

[skinnydog]

Yes, I agree the ridiculous and unwarranted bashing of the OC for the last decade had gotten ludicrous. However, I don't think O'Brien deserves to get an automatic pass here. BB clearly feels he is lacking something at this point in his career otherwise he would have been named OC (ala McDaniels). As with most things, we as fans don't have enough information to make factually-backed accurate specific criticisms. But worry about O'Brien's effect on the offense is not unwarranted IMHO.

It's hard to weed out the legit criticism and the type that's been going on for a decade I agree.

Have people really been bashing the OCs for the last decade? I thought Weiss was great. McDaniels was generally great, but teams started to catch up to the constant spread offense. O'Brien has been lousy. Crennel was great, Peas sucked. Whoever's calling the defense now, well we'll see.

 

[condon84]

So what you are saying is any play that isnt successful is a bad play call?
The OC is supposed to be able to call a play that guarantees the first option will be open. And do so regardles of what defense the opponent plays?
There was no int on 3rd and 2.
On 2nd and 3, Moss was one on one Brady did an on purpose underthrow, a good throw and Moss tried to catch it with one hand and couldnt. If he used 2, we would be calling it a great 20 yard play on 2nd and 3.
The 3rd and 13, Moss never expected the ball, and didnt go hard after it, or it would have been complete. The first option stopped his route (according to Simms) but the play call got Moss in single coverage with no safety help on 3rd and 13. That is a HUGE win in a play call. Moss half-assing it led to an Int.
But all that aside your standard is ridiculous.
You are acting like its playing Madden vs the computer at beginner level.

The point of my post, and something you have vehemently argued against everybody, is that our players weren't put in the best position to succeed in the second half. Yes, there are some plays that could have been executed a little better and you can pin those on players, but overall, the lack of creativity in our playcalling on both sides were subpar. Compare it with the way the Jets coaches were calling the game in the second half. Did you see the difference? I don't think the Jets have the players that are 18 points more talented than our players which is how much we got outscored in the second half. Coaching had a huge part in last Sunday's game.

 

[Ring 6]

My problem is not that match ups it is that they are taking a big risk on third down in the fourth quarter down by a TD. You don't take a risk on third and seven in the fourth quarter, down by seven where your defense hasn't been able to stop the other team and have been playing on their heels. It is situational football. You need to pick up the first down, keep the drive alive, and give your defense a rest while either cutting down the lead or tying the game. Moss was getting single coverage a lot in that game and that is a play for first or second down in that situation. Especially since the last third down on man coverage on Moss on a deep ball on third and 13 was intercepted.

If Moss was consistantly beating man coverage, I might agree with you. But Moss was not catching balls with man coverage by Cromartie.

If in this situation the Pats feel the logical first read should be Moss deep on every third and long even when it isn't working, then it is clear they over rely on Moss. The Pats needed to keep their defense off the field and score points and they chose a low percentage play on third and long. And yes, even to Moss, a deep pass is a low percentage play. If it was the first quarter or the Pats were up and this would put a nail in the Jets' coffin, that might be another story.

Once again the play is not X-Right-Deep to Randy
The play is a series of routes. You need to also run deep routes to ope the shorter routes. Almost every play has a deep route. You are blaming the OC for calling a play that threatened the entire field to help open up the first down area. OBrien didnt choose to go deep to Moss.
On tape I cannot see the route. I can say that Moss was open and the throw did not miss by much. But I cannot tell if Moss sleep walked thorugh that one. I can tell you the 3rd and 13 was a good decision. This one I disagreed with in live action, but it is very hard to tell a QB not to throw to your best receiver who has his man beaten one on one, which he did.

I suppose the alternative is to have Moss run a curl but then you clog the area you really want to open up.

In any event, if you say that pass was ill-advised you are criticizing Bradys execution of the play, not the play call.

 

[Rob0729]

BTW, before I bale on this ridiculous thread, I will say my peace and bale. I don't think the coordinators (or whoever calls the plays) were anywhere near one of the biggest reasons they lost this game. But they called a far from perfect game.

I was one of the ones who defended Belichick and O'Brien for the 4th and 2 call in Indy last year. I didn't think it was bad situational football as others thought. It was a ballsy call which most coaches would never make, but the percentages were there.

That said, I thought there were some bad situational decisions made by the coaching staff in this game. It is ok to admit that. This team might have overcome them with no problem if the players executed and didn't make stupid mistakes. But as I always say that in a loss like this there is enough blame to go around and usually everyone deserves a good share of blame pie.