Stop blaming the coordinators

[Joker]

Holy crapola. Anyone that can sit there and type that much for one post has got to be OK in my book. When I write anything longer than a couple of simple sentences with words of less than 5 letters, i begin to doze off and make a lot of typos. And my fingers get in my way, too.

on the bright side, I suffer from insomnia...and just one of your posts puts me in a coma for the rest of the day...

 

[Joker]

you want that in nickels or pennies?

 

[IcyPatriot]

on the bright side, I suffer from insomnia...and just one of your posts puts me in a coma for the rest of the day...

never before in the history of forums has one member typed so much and said so little as he does.

 

[condon84]

I have nothing to make excuses for. The Jets won because their players played better. They were in position to make plays and did, we were in position to make plays and didnt




I dont know you and I dont know if you have ever played football but if you have, think about this.
Think about that your position is that the game isnt about me beating you its about my coach making it easy for me.
Passes dont get completed because of an unbelievable play call. They get completed because the line blocks, the receiver runs a good route and the QB is accurate, while making the right decision.




A LOT.
OK. First adjustments aren't a halftime exclusive. They happen all game long.
Second, here is what really happened. No theory, just what was on the field.
Early in the game we completed most of our passes on mismatches of LBs covering TEs, WRs, RBs. The safeties were back the short middle was open.
As the game wore on the Jets used more dbs, and they crowded the area we were being successful in, and they abandoned the blitz. The consequence was leaving Moss in single coverage with no help.

Think about this. We took a team that lives by pressure, and turned them into a coverage team. We took a team that has dbs in man coverage on blitzes but they were burned consistently the weak before when the rush didn't get there, and had them covering man to man with no blitz.
We made the Jets abandon their identity.
I can not think of a better description of putting your players in a position to succeed.

What happens? We get what we want, and Moss gets 1 deep TD, loafs into one Int and drops another pass that turns into another Int.
Aside from that we had a strip sack and 2 drives that stalled.
If Moss makes those plays, and Light blocks Taylor, we are celebrating the game plan that took the teeth out of the Jets.
Players have to deliever for play calls to work.




Honestly though its a circular argument. Plays that work are good calls, plays that dont arent. Obvioulsy that is obtuse.
Frankly, if you dont have coaches tape, havent studied tendencies and dont know the matchups inside and out, you cant really use any legitimate judgment of play calling other than if it worked it was smart if it failed it was stupid. From that persepective there is no execution, and its Madden auto play.




Thats lame though. You cannot discuss execution by saying that good execution cannot be expected, and then call the problem something other than execution.




No. Its usually execution whether it works or not.
You can change coordinators on a talented team and notice little difference. You can put a successful coordinator on an untalented team, and he will fail.
Let me put it this way.

A well executed play will almost always succeed
A poorly executed play will almost always fail

Play calling gets too much credit and too much blame.

There is also a much, much thinner line that anyone wants to admit between a touchdown drive and a punt, it comes down to one missed block, one bad read, one poor throw, one drop. etc





I dont have a horse in this race. There is no schtck I am just explaining the facts as I see them.
Call me a homer all you want. I freely admit I want this team to win every game it ever plays. I freely admit I prefer to focus on the positive than the negative for as long as there is reason to believe the organization is on the right path, and unless you are setting the bar unrealistic high, there is plenty reason to believe that.

I'm curious though why you would invoke a homer slur. Curious because it often happens in cases like this where there simply isnt a homer or nonnhomer side to the argument. I guess belittiling me somehow feels like your argument sounds better?

I would be more comfortable with the answer being coaching. That is more fixable than the answer being talent.
I can't see how it is blind homerism to say that our player played poorly, but unbiased to say they did great the coaches blew it.
Well, maybe someday I'll figure out that thought process.

I think I've laid it out pretty clearly in this post, so Im out.Any more would be futile.

Thanks for a well thought out response. I disagree with a couple of your points but I can't argue with your reasoning.

 

[The Brandon Five]

There is also a much, much thinner line that anyone wants to admit between a touchdown drive and a punt, it comes down to one missed block, one bad read, one poor throw, one drop. etc

It would be good to see a breakdown of how many 1st downs are made on 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th down. It would also be good to see how many 1st downs are made on 3rd down at each level of yardage.

The cliche is that it is a game of inches. The origin of the cliche is that while everything in the game is measured in yards, the difference between success and failure comes down to inches.

I don’t know what to say, really. Three minutes till the biggest battle of our professional lives all comes down to today. Now either we heal as a team or we’re gonna crumble, inch by inch, play by play, 'til we’re finished.

We’re in hell right now, gentlemen, believe me. And, we can stay here -- get the **** kicked out of us -- or we can fight our way back into the light. We can climb outta hell one inch at a time.

Now, I can’t do it for you. I’m too old. I look around. I see these young faces, and I think -- I mean -- I made every wrong choice a middle-aged man can make. I, uh, I pissed away all my money, believe it or not. I chased off anyone who’s ever loved me. And lately, I can’t even stand the face I see in the mirror.

You know, when you get old in life things get taken from you. I mean that's...part of life. But, you only learn that when you start losing stuff. You find out life’s this game of inches. So is football. Because in either game, life or football, the margin for error is so small -- I mean one-half a step too late, or too early, and you don’t quite make it. One-half second too slow, too fast, you don’t quite catch it.

The inches we need are everywhere around us.

They’re in every break of the game, every minute, every second.

On this team, we fight for that inch. On this team, we tear ourselves and everyone else around us to pieces for that inch. We claw with our fingernails for that inch, because we know when we add up all those inches that’s gonna make the ******' difference between winning and losing! Between livin' and dyin'!

I’ll tell you this: In any fight, it’s the guy who’s willing to die who’s gonna win that inch. And I know if I’m gonna have any life anymore, it’s because I’m still willin' to fight and die for that inch. Because that’s what livin' is! The six inches in front of your face!!

Now I can’t make you do it. You got to look at the guy next to you. Look into his eyes! Now I think you’re gonna see a guy who will go that inch with you. You're gonna see a guy who will sacrifice himself for this team because he knows, when it comes down to it, you’re gonna do the same for him!

That’s a team, gentleman!

And, either we heal, now, as a team, or we will die as individuals.

That’s football guys.

That's all it is.

Now, what are you gonna do?

"Peace by Inches" from "Any Given Sunday"

 

[ctpatsfan1]

You gotta be kidding me with this response. You are running out of excuses.



You're reaching here. All I'm saying is that our players weren't put in the best position to succeed in the second half. If you watched the first half, you would have seen our offense go up and down the field with ease because they were put in the best position to succeed because of the plays we were calling against what the Jets defense ran.


How often did they leave Moss in single coverage? I don't have the exact figures but whatever adjustment they made in the second half worked. Or was it because our offense just didn't execute.



I've stated plenty of times, our playcalling was fantastic in the first half. What happened in the second half? Oh wait, yeah, we just didn't execute.



If I was 6'5" with a rocket arm, played successful college football and got drafted by another team other than the Pats, I would hold out and make that team trade me to the Pats. Guess what, none of that happened.



If I was 6'5" with a rocket arm, played successful college football and got drafted by another team other than the Pats, I would.............................oh wait.........nevermind.



So in short, if a play fails, it's lack of execution. If it's successful, it's because it was executed the way it was practiced. We have the supah dupah bestest coordinators in the NFL.

You're schtick is becoming old. We got outcoached this past Sunday. There's nothing wrong in admitting that. Hopefully this will be a learning experience.

It's okay Andy, the Patriots are still da bess!

You really believe this? Did you not watch the game? There may have been a play here or there where that occurred but for certain on every scoring play the Patriot player was in position to make a play and did not. Just watch the replays Butler is there and Edwards goes up over him. McCourtey is there and gets beat, twice. Ninkovich whiffs on what should have been at most a 2 yd gain by LT and it goes for significantly longer. These are the facts of the situation. I am not saying the coaching staff was perfect this game because they weren't, but it wasn't them out there missing the tackles, mistiming leaps, throwing into double coverage or locking in on only 1 WR.

 

[captain stone]

God forbid they lose to the Bills.

They won't. Their modus operandi for the last 19 games is to return home with their tails btwn their legs, face a weak-ass team, throttle them, then stick out their chests & proclaim that their problems have been cleaned up, again.

Because when the going gets tough, the Pats...go home.

 

[BradyManny]

They practice these plays in that thing called practice. Plays don't make it into a game plan unless everyone is comfortable and capable of executing them. While someone sends in a play to Brady except in hurry up, Brady adjusts the call at the LOS based on his pre snap read of the defense and he reads his target progression based on the post snap coverage read. Belichick said on Monday he didn't see any problems with Brady progressions. There are options and adjustments on every playcall depending on what the defense in fact does, for the receivers as well as the QB. Manning runs a different system where they send in multiple plays and he decides on one at the LOS based on his pre snap read. He's reading the defense and not counting on his targets to as well or to adapt to multiple adjustments post snap. The options and adjustments within each play called are more limited. Success is predicated on timing and execution. It is here too although the process is more complex because of the post snap adjustments. One example, I have no idea if Tom underthrew an open Crumpler or if Crumpler failed to adjust the route depth post snap based on the coverage or if Crumpler adjusted to something he saw that Tom didn't or if someone else missed an assignment or adjustment and that resulted in Brady rushing the throw or Crumpler altering the route. Generally speaking when a QB makes a mistake, he acknowledges it. When he and his receiver aren't on the same page, or someone else screws up, it's still a mistake in execution as opposed to play calling, players often refer to it as a miscommunication - as Moss did on the first pick Sunday - but it's debateable whose mistake it was. Usually the coaches film tells the tale in the context of what should have happened that would have worked...

I think this is a fair point, though it doesn't change my opinion on the matter, only further supports how I feel (I'll explain). I agree 100% that its very difficult for us to make judgments on who is at fault on a lot of the plays we see out there. Your Crumpler and Moss examples are good ones. I think back to the pass Brady through to Welker in the Denver game last year - everyone was on Brady for it, but afterward Welker took the blame for not making the right sight adjustment.

So I agree with your premise - that our attempts to assign blame are at best an educated guess.

I follow that through to the coordinators. We have the same right - or lack thereof - to judge the coordinators and make that same guess as we do the players. Whether we have the right or ability to do it is irrelevant, b/c we are going to do it. We're here, we're going to talk football, we might as well put our best guesses out there.

I also noticed that Belichick seemed to make a concerted effort to shift any blame away from Brady on his Monday appearance on the Big Show. And I noticed both he and Brady put an emphasis on the lack of running game and the 3rd and long situations. I think that's fair. Even said that, I do expect Brady to perform better than he did on Sunday.

And for those who think assigning blame to the coordinators is lazy, I urge you to listen to Patscast20. BradyFTW and Jays52 break it down pretty well, there is nothing lazy in his analysis. He did completely anticipate how the first half would go scheme-wise right on this board the night before, which I think gives him credibility in analyzing how the 2nd half went as well.

Personally, I would assign less blame to the OC than he does - again, I think it comes down to the fact that in any sport, its hard to separate the two sides of the equation. But its absolutely worth a listen, particularly for those ready to completely absolve the coaching staff.

 

[emoney_33]

I just want to add that failing to adjust by the coordinators doesn't mean plays that have 0% chance of success. It's about putting the players in the -best- position to succeed. In an extreme example one play design/call can see a play that gets Welker or Hernandez wide open, great job by the coaches. Another play can see everyone covered but there is still a small window for Brady to squeeze one into Moss, not the best job by the coaches.

Obviously it's near impossible to even begin to decipher exactly who is to blame in any one specific play. But the body of evidence exists enough so that questioning the coaches and O'Brien makes sense. And maybe it's not in-game adjustments that are at fault. Maybe it's failure to foresee/practice what the opponent is likely to adjust to. If you are confident that your initial gameplan is going to be successful, it's like chess you have to think many moves ahead not just your next one.

Anyway, 0 points in the 2nd half is never going to be all on the players or all on the coaching. Everyone could have done better, they could have prepared better, practiced better, schemed better, called better, executed better.

At the end of the day the MOST telling sign to me is that BB decided that O'Brien did NOT earn the OC title. Hopefully he'll improve enough to earn it this year, but coming into the year we have to know that he's significantly behind his predecessor. It's not just the players that have learning curves.

 

[kkpat]

One thing I noticed with PATS:

1. Last year, in Colts game we lost miserably with a great lead even with their crappy secondary.

2. Last year, in Saints game, Saints lost their CBs and brought some guys out of retirement and they beat the crap out of our WRs and Brady could not get any thing going.

3. Last week, Revis was out in the seconf half. Even then we could not beat that secondary in the second half.

4. Similar story in Denver last year too.

The problems seems to be that either Brady can't figure out Cover 2 defence or our OL seems can't keep any rushers away from Brady even if only 3 or 4 guys rush. Our running game can't take any advantage even with 8 men coverage in the second half. We just can't play on the road.

We all can come up with an excuse about Bengals game and say that we let them score on us to waste time with 31-3 lead. But just think about it... Colts/Saints/Jets have been killing us by putting us so much pressure on us even if they go up by 3 or 7 points on us. How can we allow long drive after long drive after long drive to these teams with 10 to 20 point lead. We just can't do any thing. We control them initially but then they figure it out. This all points to DL weakness.

Unless we develop strong running game and be able to rush QB 3 or 4 defenders in late stages of the game, we don't have a hope.

 

[shmessy]

It would suggest any number of things.



It wasn't coaching when the defense blew plays that they knew were coming (verified by Wilfork).

It wasn't coaching when the QB was targeting a covered Moss rather than other receivers who were open (verified by Curran, Ordway, DeOssie and Smerlas).

It wasn't coaching when Brady overthrew Moss and Cromartie made the pick at the 3 yard line.

It wasn't coaching when Brady underthrew Gronkowski on a pass that would have led to a first down.

It wasn't coaching when Brady threw to a covered Moss, who tipped the ball up for Poole to intercept.

It wasn't coaching when Butler grabbed the receiver when he had position on the sidelines, and ended up getting flagged for PI.

It wasn't coaching when Butler had position on the throw to the endzone but field to jump for the ball.

It wasn't coaching when Light was beaten by Taylor for the strip sack that ended the game.

Your list of "It wasn't coaching when" goes BOTH ways though, Deus. The truth then also means 'It wasn't coaching' when those SAME players look like worldbeaters every week in the first half.

Again, you fail to address the first half - second half phenomenon.

There is something at work here when there is such a huge difference in results with the SAME players. Do you think it is merely physical conditioning???? I don't buy that.

For the past two years, the very same players look great in the first half, then confused and back-peddling in the second half. SAME PERSONNEL, Deus. SAME PERSONNEL.

It is the inability to adjust at halftime. It is an-game strategy problem, and that lies with the coaching staff.

Each week, it's like a theatre production with a finely honed, well rehearsed script for the first act, then there's intermission and the cast is asked to do improv for the rest.

 

[Deus Irae]

Again, you fail to address the first half - second half phenomenon.

Actually, I've addressed it multiple times, on more than one current thread.

 

[lillestroom]

One thing I noticed with PATS:

1. Last year, in Colts game we lost miserably with a great lead even with their crappy secondary.

2. Last year, in Saints game, Saints lost their CBs and brought some guys out of retirement and they beat the crap out of our WRs and Brady could not get any thing going.

3. Last week, Revis was out in the seconf half. Even then we could not beat that secondary in the second half.

4. Similar story in Denver last year too.

The problems seems to be that either Brady can't figure out Cover 2 defence or our OL seems can't keep any rushers away from Brady even if only 3 or 4 guys rush. Our running game can't take any advantage even with 8 men coverage in the second half. We just can't play on the road.

We all can come up with an excuse about Bengals game and say that we let them score on us to waste time with 31-3 lead. But just think about it... Colts/Saints/Jets have been killing us by putting us so much pressure on us even if they go up by 3 or 7 points on us. How can we allow long drive after long drive after long drive to these teams with 10 to 20 point lead. We just can't do any thing. We control them initially but then they figure it out. This all points to DL weakness.

Unless we develop strong running game and be able to rush QB 3 or 4 defenders in late stages of the game, we don't have a hope.

You are on the money pal.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

You really believe this? Did you not watch the game? There may have been a play here or there where that occurred but for certain on every scoring play the Patriot player was in position to make a play and did not. Just watch the replays Butler is there and Edwards goes up over him. McCourtey is there and gets beat, twice. Ninkovich whiffs on what should have been at most a 2 yd gain by LT and it goes for significantly longer. These are the facts of the situation. I am not saying the coaching staff was perfect this game because they weren't, but it wasn't them out there missing the tackles, mistiming leaps, throwing into double coverage or locking in on only 1 WR.

Could not agree more, the coaches had the players in the correct position to make plays and the players did not.

The schemes we use are very sound. The players, however, are either young and inexperienced (Secondary) or complete garbage (LBers).

 

[JackBauer]

Could not agree more, the coaches had the players in the correct position to make plays and the players did not.

The schemes we use are very sound. The players, however, are either young and inexperienced (Secondary) or complete garbage (LBers).

So while they're young and inexperienced, it's your position that Mayo, Guyton, Spikes, and Cunningham are garbage.

And that's the kind of insight that keeps me coming back to PatsFans.com.

 

[Deus Irae]

Wilfork:

The second half we came out like somebody does something to us that we don't even know how to stop, when they basically were running their stuff. We knew exactly what they were going to run. We just couldn't stop it.

Wilfork on D&H: 'We can't hit a panic button'

 

[BradyFTW!]

Wilfork's comments are completely opposite what the Jets players said about the Patriots in the second half. They said the Pats coaches did not counter adjust.

Wilfork, IMO, would not say anything negative about his own coaches. That's the golden Belichick rule, cause if you do, you're gone.

It is true that players must execute the game plan, but if the game plan is the wrong one, then execution will not work. That's common sense, and common logic.

There is absolutely no logical reason for the execution to look as good as it did in the first half, and then look pitiful in the second half, if the Jets did not adjust. But, THEY DID, WE DIDN"T and we saw the result.

Common sense.

Wilfork is being a nice guy.

I'm not sure that I'd agree with that as a universal rule. Subpar plays, executed perfectly, will usually look pretty good. Execution is king; that's pretty much the Colts' mantra, and it's worked fine for them, for example. The difference between good playcalling and bad is just that it puts players in situations where they have a higher probability of executing.

Either way, Wilfork's talking about the defense, which from what I've seen hasn't been criticized much over the past week. Most people agree that the defensive personnel was just flat-out bad. I agree that Wilfork would probably refrain from criticizing the coaches even if he felt that they deserved it, though.

 

[Deus Irae]

Matt Light just chimed in on WEEI. Again..... execution.

 

[JackBauer]

What do you expect them to say?

"Yeah, that B.O.B doesn't know an offensive gameplan from a hole in the ground."

As we've seen, those not directly or no longer affiliated with the team have noted otherwise.

 

[BradyFTW!]

What do you expect them to say?

"Yeah, that B.O.B doesn't know an offensive gameplan from a hole in the ground."

As we've seen, those not directly or no longer affiliated with the team have noted otherwise.

Yup, not sure what the quotes from current players are supposed to prove; there's no scenario that I can think of where they'd blame anyone but themselves.