Stop blaming the coordinators

[Deus Irae]

What do you expect them to say?

"Yeah, that B.O.B doesn't know an offensive gameplan from a hole in the ground."

As we've seen, those not directly or no longer affiliated with the team have noted otherwise.

1.) Yes, let's ignore the players when they say something we don't want to hear. We'll point to them when they back us up, though, right?

2.) DeOssie, Smerlas, Ordway, Rodak, Reiss..... not affiliated with the team.

 

[JackBauer]

1.) Yes, let's ignore the players when they say something we don't want to hear. We'll point to them when they back us up, though, right?

Not at all. It was just a silly thing to cite for the purposes of this argument.

2.) Deossie, Smerlas, Ordway, Rodak, Reiss..... not affiliated with the team.

Oh, you mean when Reiss said the following:

I think most would agree that some hard questions need to be asked in coaching and player meetings. My feeling is that we often want to be able to point our finger at one thing as the reason why, but as is often the case, it's a combination between the coaches and players.

Hmm. Wow, looks like Reiss's position on the issue is exactly the same as my own.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

What do you expect them to say?

"Yeah, that B.O.B doesn't know an offensive gameplan from a hole in the ground."

As we've seen, those not directly or no longer affiliated with the team have noted otherwise.

Zolak said it also and hes not afraid to say whats on his mind.

 

[BradyFTW!]

1.) Yes, let's ignore the players when they say something we don't want to hear. We'll point to them when they back us up, though, right?

Not at all. The players have great insight to offer in many areas, but where to assign blame in the event of a loss isn't one of them. No Patriots player is going to point the blame at someone else, period. You know that.

As for the media part, Jack already handled that, but I'd also point out that there's a pretty sizable list that's arguing against your premise, as well.

 

[Rob0729]

Ok, I was going to sit this out, but I gotta say one thing. Who cares what the players say publically? No player is going to call out the coaching staff and when they do the media comes down hard on them. Players who aren't just selfish, "me" type of players will always blame the execution when talking about a loss. If Light or Wilfork claimed that the Pats were outcoached, the headline in every paper and on the local news would be how the players don't believe in O'Brien, Patricia, and/or Johnson.

Players are trained to speak in cliches and party lines especially Patriots players. You can take about 5-10% they say in interviews. That is why other than Brady, I never listen to any player interviews. At least Brady has the clout to veer from the party line. Everyone else, I could pretty much give you what they are going to say before they are interviewed. I bet both Light and Wilfork talked about the Bills being a better team than their record and that they always play the Pats tough too.

And BTW, I have always said I don't listen to the players. So even if they blamed the coaching staff, I would never had listened to the interview. That said, Light and Wilfork would never publically blame the coaching staff even if that is what they felt.

 

[JackBauer]

Ok, I was going to sit this out, but I gotta say one thing. Who cares what the players say publically? No player is going to call out the coaching staff and when they do the media comes down hard on them. Players who aren't just selfish, "me" type of players will always blame the execution when talking about a loss. If Light or Wilfork claimed that the Pats were outcoached, the headline in every paper and on the local news would be how the players don't believe in O'Brien, Patricia, and/or Johnson.

Players are trained to speak in cliches and party lines especially Patriots players. You can take about 5-10% they say in interviews. That is why other than Brady, I never listen to any player interviews. At least Brady has the clout to veer from the party line. Everyone else, I could pretty much give you what they are going to say before they are interviewed. I bet both Light and Wilfork talked about the Bills being a better team than their record and that they always play the Pats tough too.

Makes me kind of wish we had a DeAngelo Hall on the team -- then we'd at least have a chance at getting the straight scoop.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Hmm. Wow, looks like Reiss's position on the issue is exactly the same as my own.

Same, somewhere along the line the position that a lot of us took was misrepresented as "the coaches are 100% at fault, and there are no execution issues at all." I certainly didn't argue that, though, and I don't think that anyone did.

Unlike Deus, who at the end of the game thread said that the loss was 0% on the coordinators, I don't really deal in absolutes. Especially in a case like this, when dealing with closely related subjects. The statements of many people outside the organization, including Reiss and Bruschi, are pretty much in line with what we've been saying.

 

[mgcolby]

One thing I noticed with PATS:

1. Last year, in Colts game we lost miserably with a great lead even with their crappy secondary.

2. Last year, in Saints game, Saints lost their CBs and brought some guys out of retirement and they beat the crap out of our WRs and Brady could not get any thing going.

3. Last week, Revis was out in the seconf half. Even then we could not beat that secondary in the second half.

4. Similar story in Denver last year too.

The problems seems to be that either Brady can't figure out Cover 2 defence or our OL seems can't keep any rushers away from Brady even if only 3 or 4 guys rush. Our running game can't take any advantage even with 8 men coverage in the second half. We just can't play on the road.

We all can come up with an excuse about Bengals game and say that we let them score on us to waste time with 31-3 lead. But just think about it... Colts/Saints/Jets have been killing us by putting us so much pressure on us even if they go up by 3 or 7 points on us. How can we allow long drive after long drive after long drive to these teams with 10 to 20 point lead. We just can't do any thing. We control them initially but then they figure it out. This all points to DL weakness.

Unless we develop strong running game and be able to rush QB 3 or 4 defenders in late stages of the game, we don't have a hope.

You seriously don't believe either of that do you? Brady has made a living carving up the cover 2 particularly early in his career when the 3/4's of the league ran the cover 2. The line has protected Brady very well, he was sacked once and hit twice (if my memory serves me correct) granted the sack was the final straw. But either way both of those statements are way off the mark.

And I don't remember anyone saying that we let the Bengals score in the 2nd half. People exlained that we went from jamming at the LOS and using multiple stunts and blitz packages to get pressure on Palmer. To playing off and soft zone coverage to keep the ball in front of the defense, to include the LB's in the 2nd half.

And what is completely ignored in your post is that it worked, and it would have looked even better if Spikes catches the ball that went through his hands and if the ref makes the right call on the pick (Merriweather or Butler can't remember) or if BB challenged it. That's two scoring drives that would have ended in a turnover, instead they ended up being long scoring drives that took 13 minutes of clock. I don't see how you can call that excuses, or argue with the logic when that is what actually happened and it worked.

Now clearly there is a 2nd half issue. But it is with the offense not the defense, if the offense can't score or at least move the football consistantly in the 2nd half then the defense is obviously going to be on the field...a lot and that is never good in the NFL against any team.

 

[Deus Irae]

Hmm. Wow, looks like Reiss's position on the issue is exactly the same as my own.

Always good to see people just cutting Reiss' answers short. The key part, which you ignored:

If I had to boil it down, a lot of these second-half road struggles come down to one or two plays -- the situational football that Bill Belichick preaches. The Patriots are not winning those situations.

New England Patriots Mailbag: Lots to second-guess after loss to New York Jets - ESPN Boston

Inc to Gronk: execution
Inc to Crumpler: execution
Int to Moss: execution
Int to Moss: execution
Sack: execution

Hmmm.... few plays... situational football.... One on each drive... not winning those situations.

 

[Deus Irae]

Unlike Deus, who at the end of the game thread said that the loss was 0% on the coordinators, I don't really deal in absolutes. Especially in a case like this, when dealing with closely related subjects. The statements of many people outside the organization, including Reiss and Bruschi, are pretty much in line with what we've been saying.

Actually, what I said was that O'Brien was just about 0% of the problem.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/19/667447-official-week-2-pats-vs-jets-gameday-thread-page41.html#post2234045

That's an accurate statement. I've also noted that no game has perfect playcalling. One can say that O'Brien wasn't perfect and still note that he wasn't the problem. That's what seems to be missing from your argument.

 

[JackBauer]

Always good to see people just cutting Reiss' answers short. The key part, which you ignored:



New England Patriots Mailbag: Lots to second-guess after loss to New York Jets - ESPN Boston

Inc to Gronk: execution
Inc to Crumpler: execution
Int to Moss: execution
Int to Moss: execution
Sack: execution

Hmmm.... few plays... situational football.... One on each drive... not winning those situations.

What I cut out wasn't relevant. Reiss has said clearly on multiple occasions, including in that paragraph, that it's a mixture of execution and coaching. That he goes on to also cite failed execution does not invalidate the argument that coaching also played a part in the loss.

He certainly wouldn't agree with your assertion that B.O.B. was about 0% of the problem, as he has said otherwise rather explicitly. I can see your preemptive defense congealing here in your attempt to thread the needle by claiming that B.O.B. wasn't perfect (i.e. he made mistakes), but said mistakes were not part of the problem.

 

[Deus Irae]

What I cut out wasn't relevant. Reiss has said clearly on multiple occasions, including in that paragraph, that it's a mixture of execution and coaching. That he goes on to also cite failed execution does not invalidate the argument that coaching also played a part in the loss.

He certainly wouldn't agree with your assertion that B.O.B. was about 0% of the problem, as he has said otherwise rather explicitly. I can see your preemptive defense congealing here in your attempt to thread the needle by claiming that B.O.B. wasn't perfect (i.e. he made mistakes), but said mistakes were not part of the problem.

I've always noted that no game is played/coached perfectly. That's nothing new. That's what the bashers ignore. Between that, and the assumption that a play that's not what they'd have called is automatically a bad play, this week's been filled with people making the exact same arguments that every other fan base in the NFL makes.

O'Brien was about 0% of the problem. Every drive in the second half contained a play that would have kept the chains moving, but was screwed up by poor execution.

And what you cut out was not only relevant, but very damaging to your position.

 

[JackBauer]

O'Brien was about 0% of the problem. Every drive in the second half contained a play that would have kept the chains moving, but was screwed up by poor execution.

So by your logic B.O.B. could've called Hail Mary passes the entire second half and it'd still be the players fault for not executing. That line of argument is a terrific way to whitewash the coaching mistakes.

And what you cut out was not only relevant, but very damaging to your position.

Hardly. All it does is confirm what I've said previously, which was that Reiss has been willing to state that the breakdowns are attributable to both player performance and coaching.

 

[Roland]

Wilfork's comments are completely opposite what the Jets players said about the Patriots in the second half. They said the Pats coaches did not counter adjust.

Wilfork, IMO, would not say anything negative about his own coaches. That's the golden Belichick rule, cause if you do, you're gone.

It is true that players must execute the game plan, but if the game plan is the wrong one, then execution will not work. That's common sense, and common logic.

There is absolutely no logical reason for the execution to look as good as it did in the first half, and then look pitiful in the second half, if the Jets did not adjust. But, THEY DID, WE DIDN"T and we saw the result.

Common sense.

Wilfork is being a nice guy.

How many and who are the players on defense that the opposing team schemes around. In other words who starts on our D that brings worries to the other teams coaches.

I'll start:

Vince Wilfork

that's it.

A few years ago it was Seymour, Teddy, Vince, McGinest, Vrabel, Samuel etc...

Do you get it yet?

 

[IcyPatriot]

How many and who are the players on defense that the opposing team schemes around. In other words who starts on our D that brings worries to the other teams coaches.

I'll start:

Vince Wilfork

that's it.

A few years ago it was Seymour, Teddy, Vince, McGinest, Vrabel, Samuel etc...

Do you get it yet?

That bit was from Michael Holley on today's show ... it was a good way of looking at it. I like to look at it like how many potential future coaches are on the field right now. Even if they never become a coach ... just that they have the intelligence to do it.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Do I get what?

What the hell does that have to do with the topic of this thread?

And, I seriously doubt that any player brings "worries" to any coach. They might bring concern as to how they would play against a given player, on either side of the ball, but I certainly don't think they "worry" about it.

You know, like, "Oh my GOD, I am really worried. How are we ever going to contain that big guy, Wilfork out there?"

 

[Triumph]

Matt Light just chimed in on WEEI. Again..... execution.

The Players are going to blame themselves.

Brady said "We" couldnt do anything in the 2nd half. Well, perhaps its because "They" schemed to stop you Tom.

 

[lillestroom]

I'd take this roster any day of the week!!!

It's a great roster.

The coordinators are not infallible, not matter what you all think.

How many times do you need to see Brady plaintively look toward the sideline asking to get the call.

O'Brien is not prepared to call the next play.

Which says a lot.

I'd take our roster anyday too. (with one or two tweaks)

 

[cmasspatsfan]

2-11-NYJ 45 (10:31) T.Brady pass short left to W.Welker to NYJ 47 for -2 yards (D.Coleman).

Is this the play that Hernandez missed his block otherwise Welker would have had room to run?

Just pointing out the plays that didnt work doesnt bolster your argument, it could be poor play calling or poor execution. Im surprised you guys are still arguing about this. theres a game tomorrow, I already forgot about last week. Some of you guys hate to lose an argument. I think in this case theres two camps and no one is changing the others sides mind, agree to disagree?

 

[RayClay]

When did we appoint coordinators?