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Stop blaming the coordinators

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Deus Irae, Sep 20, 2010.

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  1. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Defense:

    Gerard Warren - liability against the run
    Wilfork - All world
    Wright - liability against the run

    Ninkovich - Liability against the run, not much better against the pass
    Spikes - rookie having rookie issues
    Guyton - major liability against the run
    Mayo - quality player
    TBC - liability against the run

    McCourty - Rookie succeptible to double moves
    Butler - Second year DB with a confidence problem an overreliance on his talent
    Meriweather - Veteran who's struggled enough to lose his starting job
    Chung - Second year player who's a liability against the pass
    Sanders - solid, but nothing more


    Offense:

    Moss - Top tier talent who's lost about 2 steps
    Welker - Top tier talent who's coming back from ACL surgery and took a shot to the head
    Tate - Second year man who got almost no playing time as a rookie
    Edelman - sub for Welker and oft-injured himself

    Crumpler - Mauler, not a pass catcher at this stage of his career
    Gronkowski/Hernandez - Rookies who still have things to learn

    Light - Solid Left tackle
    Connolly - Backup forced to start
    Koppen - Oft-injured player who seems to have declined a bit due to those injuries
    Neal - Oft-injured player (he missed time yesterday, as a matter of fact)
    Vollmer - Second year player still making mistakes

    Taylor - Talented, but aging and oft-injured.
    Morris - Aging and oft-injured, he doubles as the fullback
    BJGE - JAG

    Brady - All world, but needs to break a bad habit he picked up last year


    Far too many people are laying the blame on the coordinators. Well, players were getting open in the passing game, and the running game wasn't able to open holes. The defense is loaded with players who, for one reason or another, aren't really ready to be starting on top defenses.


    It's a personnel/talent/experience/execution problem for the most part. Blaming the coordinators is a cop out.
  2. 51Hits

    51Hits Rookie

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    Thanks Deus, because I'm tired of hearing the same crap over and over about O'Brien.

    I love how we scream and freak out about the game plain sayin it wont work because our OC's an idiot. Meanwhile, our QB is overthrowing every deep pass to Moss, he's trying to get the ball in Randy's hands all day everyday. Do people think O'Brien only wants Welker and Randy to run routs? Other people are out there too ya know.

    Brien can draw a play and where it's supposed to go but he's not going to make it happen himself. I know it's maddening to hear simple ****, but this team has a HUGE execution problem on offense.

    OL - needs to stop their timely second half collapse. I can always count on a big sack on Brady on the road.
  3. aluminum seats

    aluminum seats Rookie

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    Hmmm, I dunno. While there may be quibbles w/a few of those player assessments, even conceding they're all correct for the sake of argument, there is a pronounced 1st half/2nd half trend that's been going on for more than a year. That would suggest coaching.
  4. D-Money

    D-Money Rookie

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    Well then the players stunk in the second half!!!I thought the offense waS THE main culprit in the second half.The defense gets u a stop and ur up 14-10 and driving and Brady makes a horrific throw!!!!I thought Brady and this offense was pathetic in the second half!!!!!Usually the OC will take the hit!!Imagine if this team had a mind like Mike Martz.U think they wouldnt make more plays?
  5. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ---- JAG ----- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Good thread ... like I said in a thread yesterday players win and players lose games. A good orginization can make a team better. good tight coaching makes a team better. good coaching can help mask weaknesses if everyone plays in unison ... but it's the players that win and lose games 99.9% of the time. Anyone who has ever coached even youth football understands this.

    Belichick's lecture on false steps and playing speed is a great example.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2010
  6. D-Money

    D-Money Rookie

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    The defense wasnt pretty but they gave the offense opportunities to try and make a game out of it.The offense should know that the defense is not all that good.
  7. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ---- JAG ----- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well even if they know it what difference would that make?

    Green Bay's defense knows Favres an old man ... did that make them play better defense?

    I'm sure brady and the veterans know the defense is young. all they can do is guide them through example in preparation for game day. Butler had the deer in the healights look yesterday. Only more practice and more preparation will make that look go away.
  8. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It would suggest any number of things.



    It wasn't coaching when the defense blew plays that they knew were coming (verified by Wilfork).

    It wasn't coaching when the QB was targeting a covered Moss rather than other receivers who were open (verified by Curran, Ordway, DeOssie and Smerlas).

    It wasn't coaching when Brady overthrew Moss and Cromartie made the pick at the 3 yard line.

    It wasn't coaching when Brady underthrew Gronkowski on a pass that would have led to a first down.

    It wasn't coaching when Brady threw to a covered Moss, who tipped the ball up for Poole to intercept.

    It wasn't coaching when Butler grabbed the receiver when he had position on the sidelines, and ended up getting flagged for PI.

    It wasn't coaching when Butler had position on the throw to the endzone but field to jump for the ball.

    It wasn't coaching when Light was beaten by Taylor for the strip sack that ended the game.
  9. aluminum seats

    aluminum seats Rookie

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    Such as?

    The misplays you cite don't address the issue of 1st half/2nd half.
  10. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    I'd take this roster any day of the week!!!

    It's a great roster.

    The coordinators are not infallible, not matter what you all think.

    How many times do you need to see Brady plaintively look toward the sideline asking to get the call.

    O'Brien is not prepared to call the next play.

    Which says a lot.
  11. D-Money

    D-Money Rookie

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    How about the coaches adjusting to the defense?I thought BB had a dear in the headlights look along with Butler.
  12. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm not buying this when it comes to the Offense, ever since Obrien has been the OC this has been a recurring theme
  13. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    Personally I think it's a little bit of both.
  14. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    I generally agree.

    However, execution and coaching are linked. It is impossible to break that link. Any one of those things you referenced is affected by coaching since the players were in the positions they were due to coaching.

    Ultimately, if Brady plays better, we win the game, its that simple. Brady has to play better than he did. That is a fact, and that statement is true in a vacuum, outside of coaching and play-calling.

    However, you do have numerous former Patriots now (Bruschi, Brown) saying they didn't see the Patriots adjust to what the Jets did in the 2nd half (which, I'm presuming is to keep more in coverage). You have Brady talking about how they assumed their game plan in the first half would continue to succeed in the second half, thereby admitting they made no change to their offensive strategy. Perhaps had they executed better, it'd have been a moot point. But the fact is, the Jets made an adjustment which made life harder on the Patriots offense. The Patriots offered no counter, and instead, executed poorly.

    So, like most things, I think its both.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2010
  15. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The misplays I cited all happened in the second half. Obviously, that would go towards 1st half/2nd half.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2010
  16. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What adjustment are you claiming the Jets made that the Patriots didn't counter?
  17. aluminum seats

    aluminum seats Rookie

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    I understand they happened in the second half, but the first half/second half issue has been going on for some time now. So yeah, each week we could list all the second half screw-ups. But assuming the players aren't being replaced w/their evil twins, the logical answer is coaching. When the Pats were winning Super Bowls, it was taken as an article of faith that their strong second half showings were reflective of BB's genius. It seems silly to suggest now it's all on the players.
  18. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Can you come up with a better criticism than trying to push the idea that a coach who has been in the NFL 35 years, and ha 5 rings, is overwhelmed by what happens on gameday?
  19. fair catch fryar

    fair catch fryar Rookie

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    Last edited: Sep 20, 2010
  20. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Exactly my little league baseball team in 2009 was 2-10. My little league team in 2010 was 9-3, different players same coach.
  21. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I presume that you are part of the 15% of posters here who think that our second half adjustments are just fine.

    =============
    All rosters and all players have pluses and minuses. We have a sufficiently solid roster be favored in our division and have one of the top 3 or 4 offenses in the league. Our defense allowed fewer points that 27 teams last year, and supposedly we have better and more experienced talent this year, as well as the focus of Coach Belichick on the defense.

    OFFENSE
    If you have liked the playcalling and offensive game plans for the past two years, you certainly are entitlted to that opinion. If you think that our offensive coaches have been superb at adjustments after the half and in playingcalling in the second halves of game, you are entitled to that opinion. Your whining about the quality of our offensive talent is appalling. We have among the best talent in the league. But if it floats your boat to think that the we have been losing in the second half because of lack of offensive talent, than so be it. IMHO, if we don't have the coaches to mold the talent that we have into a winning unit, then we need better coaches. It is really that simple.

    DEFENSE
    It is what it is, a young unit that has lost two of its leaders for the year: Bodden and Warren. I don't expect this unit to perform as well as last year. However, by midseason, it could be close to last year's group if the coaches are able to do their job of improving the production from the kids.

    Yes, we need another runstuffer in the front seven. Yes, we need another corner. However, it for belichick and the coaches to work with the talent that we have, the talent that he has personally chosen to mold into greatness.

    Bleichick and Caserio chose the talent. The coaches have coached them up. If you think that the coahes and coordinators should not be expected to coach at a level of the jets coaching staff, so be it.

    BOTTOM LINE
    Being outplayed happens occasionally. Being outcoached by the jets is embarassing.


    Last edited: Sep 20, 2010
  22. mr3putt

    mr3putt Rookie

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    Point 1
    Where were the slants and screens in the second half?
    Long bombs to Moss are high risk and difficult to complete.
    Not to mention Brady missing those alot lately

    Point 2
    Light still gets beat by speed rushers ( hello Mr Taylor)
    Mayo was late on every running play

    Execution sucked ...no doubt
    Is it execution that has caused lousy 2nd half production against good teams for over a year?
    If it's all on execution then maybe BB has assembled a bunch of "No can Do's"

    Either way it's an indictment of the system as a whole and the staff in particular.

    IMHO
  23. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If the reality is that if we have fine coaches and coordinators, and they have been doing a fine job in the second half oever last 18 games, then I guess our offensive talent is much weaker that I would have thought.

  24. D-Money

    D-Money Rookie

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    If u asked me, i think they got a little to ****y and overconfident and the jets looked like a desperate hungry team!!!In terms of the poster critizing me about BB, well body language says alot!!
  25. PATSYLICIOUS

    PATSYLICIOUS Rookie

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    On defense, I agree with you. With that personnel you cannot blame any coach for their struggles, in fact struggles should be expected.

    Offensively though you are not going to convince me the personnel is not sufficient. Unless you are just trying to say Brady had a really really poor game, which I can see. But then I don't know why you had to list out the lineup of our offense and try to nitpick there. Take a look at the rosters of offenses around the league, ours is about as good as it gets.
  26. BradyFTW!

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    Sorry, but you're wrong here. Bill O'Brien is a chimp
  27. TheBaronPatriot

    TheBaronPatriot Rookie

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    Brady said in his presser that the Jets played more safety coverage in the second half. The Pats did not adjust and instead kept attacking as if was a pressure scheme taking deep shots.

    Another lack of adjustment was providing over the top help for our young safeties. The game called for stopping the run. Edwards already beat Butler once so some over the top help would have been nice the second time around.

    Another issue I have is with confidence. When the players have confidence in each other and the plan things go well. When the plan stops working players start improvising.

    That's where coaching comes into play. The coaches collect information from the field about what the players are seeing and adjust accordingly. When things don't work and there is no player to coach communication confidence is lot and players freelance and get out of synch.

    A good coach will recognize when this is happening and adjust the plan on the fly. My issue is not with the plan but rather the lack of adjustments made by the coaches. When the players recognize the lack of adjustments or bad adjustments they lose confidence in the coaching staff. I think this happened a little bit yesterday.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2010
  28. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Body language says nothing unless you interpret it properly and your intepretation is ridiculous.
  29. Spiral

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    I think that adjustments are not a halftime thing--they're a series-to-series thing.

    Do you think that O'Brien would be better if he were upstairs vs. on the sidelines?
  30. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I can see both sides of the argument and I think the truth is somewhere in the middle a combination of both.

    But to quibble the Jets didn't blitz much in the 2nd half so why would you run a screen? I see that on here a lot and it makes me wonder if people understand the purpose of running a screen is.
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