Stop blaming the coordinators

[skinnydog]

NE had the highest first half point differential in the league in 2009. How do you execute better than that?

You don't.

 

[Deus Irae]

1) Everything can be isolated and looked at as a unique occurance. But trends exist for a reason.

Yes, but the only real trend is that the team wasn't very good last year. It beat up on bad teams, played mostly even against good teams, and got beaten by the best teams. Is it really a surprise that good teams would eventually be able to shut down Moss/Welker, and force the team to win with Aiken/Watson/Baker? That's what people like myself were talking about happening once Galloway got benched and cut. There was no surprise to it.

2) ...And the team is still in the top 5 for first half and bottom 3rd for second half.

The team had four big blowouts where the team opened up smoking hot. That's where the spread comes from:

Tenn - 45/14
Tampa - 21/14
J'Ville - 28/7
Jets - 24/7

That's a 118-42 spread. In the close games, the scoring was much more balanced.

Again, it's no surprise that teams that played the Patriots better would be better able to limit Moss/Welker over the course of a game. People are looking for an "adjustment" trend that's just not there.

 

[Deus Irae]

The fact on third and seven on that drive instead of trying to get a first down and having Brady hucking deep down the field to Moss was a good call? Like I say, when you need seven yards to keep the drive alive in a game you are only down by seven, throw it for forty on third down. This drive is a clear case where a bad play call ended the drive. This is typical of Brady/O'Brien. There doesn't seem to be much patience when the Pats are down late in the game.

1. New England Patriots at 13:24
2. 1-10-NE 11 (13:24) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 81-R.Moss. PENALTY on NYJ-31-A.Cromartie, Illegal Contact, 5 yards, enforced at NE 11 - No Play.
3. 1-10-NE 16 (13:20) 33-K.Faulk left end to NE 24 for 8 yards (30-D.Coleman). NE-33-K.Faulk was injured during the play.
4. 2-2-NE 24 (12:51) 42-B.Green-Ellis left guard to NE 26 for 2 yards (91-S.Pouha).
5. 1-10-NE 26 (12:12) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 82-A.Crumpler.
6. 2-10-NE 26 (12:07) 42-B.Green-Ellis right guard to NE 29 for 3 yards (70-M.Devito, 92-S.Ellis).
7. 3-7-NE 29 (11:23) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to 81-R.Moss.
8. 4-7-NE 29 (11:17) 14-Z.Mesko punts 38 yards to NYJ 33, Center-47-J.Ingram. 36-J.Leonhard to NYJ 37 for 4 yards (18-M.Slater).

Just gave you an example of lousy play calling ending a drive. I question the BJGE run on second down in that drive. Should have been first down. I personally hate the throw on first down and if it is incomplete, run on second down. But that is just me.

There's nothing wrong with that playcalling, and that was the series where Brady missed an open Crumpler. If Brady doesn't miss Crumpler, it's 1st and 10.

 

[skinnydog]

1. 
   
   
   Just gave you an example of lousy play calling ending a drive. I question the BJGE run on second down in that drive. Should have been first down. I personally hate the throw on first down and if it is incomplete, run on second down. But that is just me.

1. 
   
   It won't matter you can't convince when facts don't matter.

 

[Rob0729]

There's nothing wrong with that playcalling, and that was the series where Brady missed an open Crumpler. If Brady doesn't miss Crumpler, it's 1st and 10.

So he missesd Crumpler and it became second and 10. Was the drive over at that point? Was throwing a 40 yard bomb on third and seven justified because the drive ended on first down when Brady missed Crumpler? Did they change the rules on me?

Again, the Crumpler missed pass was a first down play. The Pats had at least two more downs to get a first. I can see your point if the Pats tried to throw a short or intermediate pass on third down just to get past the sticks, but They tried to go for a homerun on third and seven. If you are going to ignore that, I am bailing from this mindnumbing thread.

 

[BradyManny]

There's nothing wrong with that playcalling, and that was the series where Brady missed an open Crumpler. If Brady doesn't miss Crumpler, it's 1st and 10.

Deus, what you're not acknowledging is it's up to Bill O'Brien to call plays that are likely to succeed against the given defense that they are facin. I don't remember the Crump play specifically, but take the 2nd & 7 play to Moss I mentioned earlier - or many of the 2nd half plays. They were heavily focused on quick strike vertical routes. Yet the Jets defense had generally backed off on trying to pressure Brady (when that was failing miserably in the first half) and seemed to put more in coverage. Pressure wasn't an issue in the 2nd half.

Again - I can't see how its an either or scenario when it comes to this issue. It's both. The notion that fans can't question coordinators is silly. They are just as unqualified to make judgments on a player's play, yet that is universally accepted. Furthermore, to absolve the OC & DC of any blame when things go wrong is an injustice to them. It implies that they deserve no credit when things go well.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Yup, just like many other posters. Thing is, I did not initiate any threads on the topic, merely responded to some of the others who are posting volumes of posts in those threads. You seem to be quite prevelant in some of them.

Pretty good stuff too, like most of mine. Nice job.

BTW, other than the personal comment, what's your opinion on the content? Agree, disagree, not sure, have another suggestion?

Just the thought of anyone here(Except for a few long time members) knowing more than even the guys who break down the film is laughable.

We have a few here who know a ton ... just a very few and it's not me.

How's that?

 

[Deus Irae]

So he missesd Crumpler and it became second and 10. Was the drive over at that point? Was throwing a 40 yard bomb on third and seven justified because the drive ended on first down when Brady missed Crumpler? Did they change the rules on me?

Again, the Crumpler missed pass was a first down play. The Pats had at least two more downs to get a first. I can see your point if the Pats tried to throw a short or intermediate pass on third down just to get past the sticks, but They tried to go for a homerun on third and seven. If you are going to ignore that, I am bailing from this mindnumbing thread.[/QUOTE]

You are confusing playcalling that does not match your preference with bad playcalling, which seems to be the problem with so many of the people bashing the coordinators.

There is nothing wrong with trying a run on 2nd and 10, and there's nothing wrong with looking to Moss deep on third down. However, even if I bought your argument for the sake of discussion, that's one bad call in the half, and that's certainly not evidence of a failure to make adjustments.

 

[IcyPatriot]

I've come to the conclusion that I am a moron for following this thread.

This forum is hindering my enjoyment of the Patriots lately thanks to HD TV.

 

[Deus Irae]

Deus, what you're not acknowledging is it's up to Bill O'Brien to call plays that are likely to succeed against the given defense that they are facin. I don't remember the Crump play specifically, but take the 2nd & 7 play to Moss I mentioned earlier - or many of the 2nd half plays. They were heavily focused on quick strike vertical routes. Yet the Jets defense had generally backed off on trying to pressure Brady (when that was failing miserably in the first half) and seemed to put more in coverage. Pressure wasn't an issue in the 2nd half.

EVERY SINGLE DRIVE in the second half would have been extended had there not been an execution failure. Not one drive had well executed plays that failed for all 3 downs.

Again - I can't see how its an either or scenario when it comes to this issue. It's both. The notion that fans can't question coordinators is silly. They are just as unqualified to make judgments on a player's play, yet that is universally accepted. Furthermore, to absolve the OC & DC of any blame when things go wrong is an injustice to them. It implies that they deserve no credit when things go well.

Questioning the coordinators would be fine if the questioning were rational and reasonable. It's been neither. For example.....

Taylor was rotating drives with BJGE. According to Taylor, his lack of play was not because of injury. Assuming Taylor was telling the truth, it makes perfect sense to wonder why the hell the team would be using BJGE in an even rotation with Taylor, and it makes perfect sense to say that either O'Brien or Belichick need a head CT for that decision. I even noted that issue in this thread.

Instead of something like that, though, people are trying to blame playcalling by saying that they didn't make any adjustments, when they don't know what was called, have to ignore the obvious screwups by the players, and have to ignore what

Brady
Wilfork
& Belichick

all said about execution, AND the fact that Keller (Jets player) noted that the defense made adjustments in a statement praising his coaching staff for making better adjustments.

They have to ignore the breakdowns done by Reiss' intern, as well. Some examples:

Patriots QB Tom Brady’s decision to throw to WR Randy Moss on the interception by FS Brodney Pool was not a bad one. Moss had single coverage from CB Antonio Cromartie, who initially had his back to the pass. With the height advantage, it is a catch Moss had made routinely in New England. However, it was Brady’s pass that was off the mark.

After an incompletion to Crumpler, the Patriots tried running with Green-Ellis, only to have center Dan Koppen not able to handle NT Mike DeVito, who combined with DE Shaun Ellis in holding Green-Ellis to a short gain. An overthrow from Brady to Moss then ended the possession.

New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Even without their base defense on the field, the Jets were able to stop Taylor for a loss, with DE Mike DeVito beating center Dan Koppen, who had a tough outside block to execute. The Patriots dug themselves a deeper hole on the next play, with TE Aaron Hernandez, lined up in the slot, missing a block on CB Drew Coleman to stop a screen pass to WR Wes Welker for a loss.

On the play, Wilson blitzed off the right edge, occupying Vollmer, who handed RE Shaun Ellis to RG Stephen Neal. The veteran Neal was about a half-second late to come out of his stance on the snap, giving Ellis the outside edge to hurry Brady into an incomplete dump-off pass.

New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

 

[BradyManny]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Brady's execution was not poor. I hope no one is at least, and I am certainly not.

But isn't it possible that O'Brien could have called plays that would lead to better execution by Brady?

Brady's poor execution does not eliminate the possibility that O'Brien's coaching was flawed. Does it? Brady, like any player, has strengths and weaknesses, and certain plays have - in their nature - a higher or lower percentage of working to begin with. Isn't it possible that O'Brien could have called higher percentage plays that Brady could have executed as well as he was in the first half?

That's all I'm saying, it doesn't have to be one or the other. A player's execution of the play is directly linked to the likelihood that it was going to be executed from the geto. A lot of the plays in the 2nd half were high-risk/high-reward plays when they didn't necessarily need to be. They were not facing the same kind of pressure we're used to seeing from a Rex Ryan defense.

 

[alvinnf]

The Patriots have become predictable, both sides of the ball. I don't blame the coordinators for that.

 

[emoney_33]

EVERY SINGLE DRIVE in the second half would have been extended had there not been an execution failure. Not one drive had well executed plays that failed for all 3 downs.

There's not a coordinator in the NFL, College or HS that would fail to get a first down with 3 well executed plays. Hell you can pick plays at random and get a 1st down if they are "well executed". What kind of twisted logic is this.

 

[IcyPatriot]

I seriously doubt it. They may know their X's and O's, which I commend them for, but that is just a small part of what actually makes things work, or fail.

I am sure that Bill O'Brien, for example, knows his X's and O's but if he is the one calling the plays, and we dont know that for sure, it proves that there is much more involved than just knowing where people are supposed to be....

Being able to anticipate, being able to see immediatley when things are not working as expected and being willing to make the changes on the spot, being willing to take advice from other sources, being willing to admit you were wrong, and then, just plain common sense and logic... not so much X's and O's that some people seem to think mean everything.

It looks great on paper for the few that you are suggesting know more than most others, but in truth, its a lot of crapola.

Common sense is far more important than where you station your X's and O's. But, of course, you wouldnt believe that, would you. Your long timers know it all, better than anyone else, right?

What a freaking joke.

I have seen posts in here in the last couple of days from fans whos number of posts indicate they are not "long timers" and their comments are far more intelligent and contain far more common sense than those trying to draw the X's and O's.

Being a long timer in anything, not just on a message board doesnt make people "right."

My three cents, from a short timer.

When I join a message board, be it sports, news, politics, or anything else, every poster is exactly the same to me, be they have 2 posts or 9,000 posts. All that the greater numbers mean is that they have more free time on their hands.

Being a long timer does not make them GOD, or correct.

And every member of any forum is an integral part of it, for it produces discussion, and debate and every poster deserves to have the respect of the other posters regardless of content, other than obsceneties, porn, or just something that is distasteful.

Now, if you dont mind, I would like to return to discussing the topic of this thread, not , allegedly, who knows more than someone else.

...... NEM redux.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Brady's execution was not poor. I hope no one is at least, and I am certainly not.

But isn't it possible that O'Brien could have called plays that would lead to better execution by Brady?

In theory, yes. In practice, those plays were generally easy plays for a player of Brady's caliber to make, and they are plays that you'd want to get. Who didn't want Moss one-on-one against Cromartie? Who didn't want a wide open Crumpler? Who didn't want Gronkowski open deep against a shorter player?

Brady's poor execution does not eliminate the possibility that O'Brien's coaching was flawed. Does it?

No, but there's a difference between 'flawed' and 'to blame'. No game plan is going to make the perfect call every time. Well, I suppose it's possible, but I've never seen it happen, have you?

Brady, like any player, has strengths and weaknesses, and certain plays have - in their nature - a higher or lower percentage of working to begin with. Isn't it possible that O'Brien could have called higher percentage plays that Brady could have executed as well as he was in the first half?

The mistakes weren't all on Brady, and some of them were on high percentage plays. Hernandez missing a block on a screen resulting in a pass to Welker for -2 yards comes quickly to mind. The Wilson blitz talked about by Rodak above would be another example.

That's all I'm saying, it doesn't have to be one or the other. A player's execution of the play is directly linked to the likelihood that it was going to be executed from the geto. A lot of the plays in the 2nd half were high-risk/high-reward plays when they didn't necessarily need to be. They were not facing the same kind of pressure we're used to seeing from a Rex Ryan defense.

If you like the matchup of Moss v. Cromartie, where were the "high risk" plays that should have been avoided but weren't?

 

[ausbacker]

I've come to the conclusion that I am a moron for following this thread.

This forum is hindering my enjoyment of the Patriots lately thanks to HD TV.

I wish I had the intestinal fortitude to put Juicer Irate on ignore, but I can't bring myself to dismiss people's opinion, no matter how stupid they are.

 

[Synovia]

What adjustment are you claiming the Jets made that the Patriots didn't counter?

Did you even watch the game Deus?

 

[mgteich]

?????????????
You don't blame the coordinators for the predictability of the running of the offense and defense? So, who do you blame?

The Patriots have become predictable, both sides of the ball. I don't blame the coordinators for that.

 

[aluminum seats]

Wow, this has definitely reached the point of diminishing returns.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Wow, this has definitely reached the point of diminishing returns.

You really thought it would be fruitful?

A discussion where we are missing most of the variables that coaches would need to analyze the team.

this thread is a discussion of analyzing the team from a Fox telecast. Wow!