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CLICK HERE to Register for a free account and login for a smoother ad-free experience. It's easy, and only takes a few moments.VJCPatriot said:Honestly I don't care about the hamstring play. One bad play does not make a player's career. But on the whole I think that Pass is a mediocre player as a RB/FB. The only reason he has stuck around is versatility and the ability to play ST. I think if Mills sticks he knocks out Pass from the 53 because Mills will be a LOT better pass catcher from the backfield then Pass.
The top 4 would then be Dillon, Faulk, Maroney, Mills. Mills will play the versatile split back or H back role depending on how you look at it. The only concern is will Mills make the team. If the coaching staff believes that he belongs I think that spells the end for Pass who is a very limited player. We've seen the best of Patrick Pass and quite frankly I have not been impressed.
pats1 said:Where in the world did you get those numbers?
The others are as a third down back and return man. Pass is NOT a lead blocker. Hockstein, Klecko, Seymour,Vrabel. You need a blocking FB, oneof those are used,not Pass. Faulk is a much better pass catcher (This time YOU look up the stats. They are there for you. His return skills have dimisnished each year.pats1 said:Like mgteich just said, the running game is only one facet of Pass.
Neither statement is correct. See the link above. He had 4 DNPs, where he never stepped onto the field. In addition, he had two games (weeks 1 and 2) where he had no stats. Having no stats is NOT DNP.pats1 said:In 2004, he had only 5 games where no stats were recorded or the log acutally lists him as DNP. In 2005, he had 7 of those such occurces, with 5 coming as a result of his injury.
I understand Pass's number of returns going down becuase of better returners, but I guess you'll have to explain what Bethel Johnson has to do with Pass's AVG return going frompats1 said:The diminishing return stats prove two things:
1) The Patriots, as we already know, had to rely much more on Faulk and Pass prior to the coming of Bethel/Davis/Dwight/Hobbs in kick returns.
2) Pass has, which any Patriot fan has noticed, had his roles diminish as an actual returner because his role in the offense has increased.
You chose those years because his stats those years are mediocre. Other years they are horrible. You did the best you could with what you had to work with.pats1 said:Why did I only choose those years? Did you not claim Pass had not improved since his release/re-sign in 2003?
You and I have found an area of total agreement.pats1 said:Mills would never be a ... lead blocker like Pass.
Murphys95 said:Difficult to predict. I wouldn't be surprised if Izzo, Pass, Evans, or Bethel are cut.
Pass is still in my doghouse from that boneheaded hamstring fumble he made against the Bills last year.
pats1 said:Of course he would be picked up. The Pass of 2006 doesn't even compare to the Pass of 2003 in both stats and leauge-wide publicity.
spacecrime said:http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5269
The others are as a third down back and return man. Pass is NOT a lead blocker. Hockstein, Klecko, Seymour,Vrabel. You need a blocking FB, oneof those are used,not Pass. Faulk is a much better pass catcher (This time YOU look up the stats. They are there for you. His return skills have dimisnished each year.)
Neither statement is correct. See the link above. He had 4 DNPs, where he never stepped onto the field. In addition, he had two games (weeks 1 and 2) where he had no stats. Having no stats is NOT DNP.
As far as his four DNPs being the result of injury, wouldn't they all be together if he was recovering? He logged a DNP in weeks 9 and 10, had his two biggest games of the year in weeks 11 and 12, then 2 DNPs in weeks 13 and 14. Obviously all the DNPs were not for him recuperating from his injury. As I recall, he played in the game right after the injury. I forget what game he threw the ball on the ground. Check the link above.
I understand Pass's number of returns going down becuase of better returners, but I guess you'll have to explain what Bethel Johnson has to do with Pass's AVG return going from
2003= 23 AVG
2004= 19 AVG
2005= 15 AVG
and his longest return of the year:
2003= 36
2004= 24
2005= 21
These stats have nothing to do with Bethel or Davis or anything else. His average return yard dropped each year and his longest return of the year dropped each year.
You chose those years because his stats those years are mediocre. Other years they are horrible. You did the best you could with what you had to work with.
I said he was cut in 2003 and no one picked him up - not one team - and that in 2006 he is older and slower and no one will be likely to pick him up if he gets cut again in 2006. The topic was not did-he-go-from-horrible-to-merely-mediocre, but I was responding to someone beliving that if we cut him he was sure to be signed by someone else. I will grant you that Pass played better in 2004 and 2005 than in 2000-2003, but that is becuase he was so horrible in 2000-2003 that he could not possibly have gotten worse.
Exactly. Alas, there is obviously no way we will be able to afford to keep him. He's on the last year of his contract, right? No way the Pats will be able to pay him what he is worth. Pass will be taking the Givens route to a megabuck contract.shmessy said:Exactly. This is the one player on the team who makes a quantum leap each year in improvement. And he is still getting better. He had an excellent year last year and for much of it was the glue holding that running game together. His special teams coverage is excellent also.
spacecrime said:Exactly. Alas, there is obviously no way we will be able to afford to keep him. He's on the last year of his contract, right? No way the Pats will be able to pay him what he is worth. Pass will be taking the Givens route to a megabuck contract.
Luckily BB saw this coming. Now we know why he drafted Maroney in the first (to try to replace Pass's running skills), Thomas in the third and Mills in the fourth ( catch passes out of the backfield and block), Willie Anderson in the seventh (to return kicks), and signed Mel Mitchell and Tebucky Jones (STs).
Well, they won't replace him, but it's a start.
Maybe we could franchise him in 2007.....
<sigh>
when is mini-camp again?
Actually, I just realized that I was speaking to a wall, and kind of lost interest. The facts are as they are, as I posted. The interpretation of those facts is where we differ.pats1 said:I'll take your sarcasm as a sign of defeat.
spacecrime said:Actually, I just realized that I was speaking to a wall, and kind of lost interest. The facts are as they are, as I posted. The interpretation of those facts is where we differ.
You are welcome to believe that Pass is great.
I don't.
We will just have to wait until September. If Pass is on the 53, I will publically admit that he is better than I thought. If he is cut, you know what to do. And if he is cut we can see if anyone signs him ....
And remember, we both agree that Mills will never be the blocker that Pass is.
pats1 said:Agree completely.
My projected 53 man:
QBs (3):
Tom Brady
*Jay Fielder* or Corey Bramlet (#3)
Matt Cassel
RBs/FBs (5):
Corey Dillon
Laurence Maroney
Kevin Faulk
Patrick Pass
Garrett Mills
TEs (3):
Daniel Graham
Ben Watson
David Thomas
WRs (5)
Deion Branch
Reche Caldwell
Chad Jackson
Troy Brown
Bethel Johnson
OL (9)
Matt Light
Logan Mankins
Dan Koppen
Stephen Neal
Nick Kaczur
Russ Hochstein
Brandon Gorin
Gene Mruczkowski
Ross Tucker
DL (6)
Richard Seymour
Vince Wilfork
Ty Warren
Jarvis Green
Marquise Hill
Mike Wright
LBs (9)
Tedy Bruschi
Rosevelt Colvin
Mike Vrabel
Monty Beisel
Tully Banta-Cain
Jeremy Mincey
Ryan Claridge
Larry Izzo
Don Davis
CB (5)
Asante Samuel
Randall Gay
Ellis Hobbs
Eric Warfield
Chad Scott
S (5)
Rodney Harrison
Eugene Wilson
Tebucky Jones
Mel Mitchell
James Sanders
K/P/LS (3)
Stephen Gostkowski
Josh Miller
Lonie Paxton
Which means the following notable players get the boot:
Bam Childress
Artrell Hawkins
Eric Alexander
Barry Gardner
Hank Poteat
Guss Scott
Ray Ventrone
Willie Andrews
Le Kevin Smith
Martin Gramatica
Dan Klecko
Wesley Britt
Billy Yates
Dan Stevenson
Chad Scott, if Law is signed
Please answer one question for me. Why was Heath Evans active for the Denver playoff game and Patrick Pass inactive? Why do you think BB made that decision? Does it say anything about which player BB thinks will give the Patriots the best chance to win? Okay, three questionsshmessy said:Each year Pass has been getting better. He's only 28 and is still on the upswing. Those that want to keep Heath Evans over this guy .......
DaBruinz said:Pats1 -
Where is O'Callahan? Also, I doubt the Patriots carry 4 guys who can play center in Koppen, Hochstein, Tucker and Mruczkowski unless Koppen goes onto the PUP. I think that Britt will push Gorin for his back-up position.
Also, I disagree that the Pats would keep Tebucky Jones over Artrell Hawkins. Jones just is NOT a leader and the Pats will need someone who can spell Harrison. Hawkins can do that.
Alot will depend on injuries and how players like Koppen, Harrison and Light are doing. Of the 3, only Light is sounding like he'll be ready for camp and opening night. Harrison and Koppen could end up going on the PUP.
Also, I believe that Don Davis and Larry Izzo are closer to be gone than staying. Davis already has the unofficial job of assistant trainer. I wouldn't be surprised if he was cut and stayed with the team in that capacity. I wouldn't be surprised if Alexander made the roster over Izzo or Davis.
My concerns with this roster is that Bethel and Hobbs would be your primary returners and its questionable whether Bethel can handle punt returning. I do understand that he has the punt return for the TD, but there is still plenty of questions there.
Stevenson and LeKevan Smith are prime candidates for the practice squad. As is Ray Ventrone and Willie Andrews.
Just a side note. You forgot Jeremy Lloyd as well as O'Callahan.
spacecrime said:Please answer one question for me. Why was Heath Evans active for the Denver playoff game and Patrick Pass inactive? Why do you think BB made that decision? Does it say anything about which player BB thinks will give the Patriots the best chance to win? Okay, three questions
I don't know. You could be right. Was his fumble late in the year? I had thought he did the ball toss thing against Buffalo, and then had the best back-to-back games of his career three weeks later against NO and KC, which would imply that he had recovered. But he also logged a couple DNPs after KC, didn't he?pats1 said:Because Pass was still injured and clearly wasn't even close to 100% when he tried to come back a few weeks earlier?
spacecrime said:I don't know. You could be right. Was his fumble late in the year? I had thought he did the ball toss thing against Buffalo, and then had the best back-to-back games of his career three weeks later against NO and KC, which would imply that he had recovered. But he also logged a couple DNPs after KC, didn't he?
Did he re-injure himself? Sorry, too lazy or not interested enough to look it up.
DaBruinz said:Pats1 -
Where is O'Callahan? Also, I doubt the Patriots carry 4 guys who can play center in Koppen, Hochstein, Tucker and Mruczkowski unless Koppen goes onto the PUP. I think that Britt will push Gorin for his back-up position.
Also, I disagree that the Pats would keep Tebucky Jones over Artrell Hawkins. Jones just is NOT a leader and the Pats will need someone who can spell Harrison. Hawkins can do that.
Alot will depend on injuries and how players like Koppen, Harrison and Light are doing. Of the 3, only Light is sounding like he'll be ready for camp and opening night. Harrison and Koppen could end up going on the PUP.
Also, I believe that Don Davis and Larry Izzo are closer to be gone than staying. Davis already has the unofficial job of assistant trainer. I wouldn't be surprised if he was cut and stayed with the team in that capacity. I wouldn't be surprised if Alexander made the roster over Izzo or Davis.
My concerns with this roster is that Bethel and Hobbs would be your primary returners and its questionable whether Bethel can handle punt returning. I do understand that he has the punt return for the TD, but there is still plenty of questions there.
Stevenson and LeKevan Smith are prime candidates for the practice squad. As is Ray Ventrone and Willie Andrews.
Just a side note. You forgot Jeremy Lloyd as well as O'Callahan.
shmessy said:Let's put it this way. If Banta-Cain and Bethel improved as much each season as Pass has, we'd have fewer question marks at LB and WR.
Each year Pass has been getting better. He's only 28 and is still on the upswing. Those that want to keep Heath Evans over this guy .......
spacecrime said:I don't know. You could be right. Was his fumble late in the year? I had thought he did the ball toss thing against Buffalo, and then had the best back-to-back games of his career three weeks later against NO and KC, which would imply that he had recovered. But he also logged a couple DNPs after KC, didn't he?
Did he re-injure himself? Sorry, too lazy or not interested enough to look it up.
For the record, I don't think Heath Evans will make the team, but like DaBruinz, I don't think that will have any bearing on Pass's future with the team.
As it stands, the following:
Dillon-Maroney-Faulk-Mills
can do anything that needs to be done out of the backfield. Pass's future (and Evans) is dependent on one of those four going on IR. Failing that, neither Pass nor Evans has a place on the team.