Pass Won't Get Cut

[spacecrime]

Turf toe. Don't laugh, it's what drove Barry Sanders and others to the sidelines many times in their careers. For a RB it's a real injury. He's had it since high school and never has been able to fully push off. This offseason he had surgery to finally correct it - should be interesting if it results in better acceleration for him.

Here's the link: http://patriots.bostonherald.com/patriots/view.bg?articleid=138964&format=text

BTW, Crime, on what basis are you promoting Mills? You watched him play much?

Good article. Hope it helps him, but he if hehadit since high school, he would have been better served to get it fixed in an earlier off-season.

I have not seen Mills, Maroney, Jackson or Thomas play except in highlights.

However, he was the ninth pick in the fourth round and there simply isn't any way he will be cut without getting a shot. I've only heard of one player selected around that pick gettting cut during his first tc, and that was Clarrette, who was picked aobut 10 picks earlier. And even with all his baggage and the fact that he had a no-signing bonus contract, it was still amazing he was cut.

So, giving that it is unlikely to the point of a certainty that Mills will not be cut, we are going to have:

Dillon-Maroney-Faulk-Mills.

Now, given that, what can Pass do to break into the lineup?

IF his turf toe is fixed and he suddenly becomes a great runner, he has a shot, a small shot. His best chance is still an injury to Faulk or Mills that land them on IR during TC.

Or if he is still recuperating, he can go on PUP.

But barring in injury to Faulk or Mills, there simply isn't a reason to keep him.

But fear not, if he is cut, no one will pick him up. I saw in the link that you provided that Pass has been cut not once, but twice. And neither time did anyone pick him up. He may have gotten better, as PATS1 maintains, but no one signs a guy because he is better than he used to be. He will be signed only if he has potential to be worth it. After six years and medicore performance (evaluate with your head and not your heart here) he just doesn't have much to offer another team, IMO

But who knows? Maybe he'll recover from turf toe and be a runner like no one has ever seen. Maybe Hank Poteat will be our starting left corner.

 

[shmessy]

Spacecrime, you make several good points (as opposed to Joker who must be off from school today and is adding nothing to this discussion), however, here's Mills' Espn.com player card of his four years in college.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=135169

Please note: Rushing totals for all four years - Attempts: 0 Yards: 0

Will he even know how to take a handoff?

I'm not saying "no" out of hand, but before you cut Pass for this guy, how about seeing if he can do that position?

Once again, can ANYONE here say that Pass has not improved each year? I challenge anyone here to make that claim. He's 28, just had corrective surgery on a chronic toe problem, is a great ST'er, averaged 4.5 yards per carry last year and had 22 receptions. In many respects he was one of the most valuable players on this team last year and he is getting better.

He had one (1) lost fumble last year for which many here think was the only play he was involved with in 2005. This is a fan page and we all know what the derivation of the word "fan" is. We can see how far some minds can be twisted - ref: Joker.

 

[shmessy]

BTW: 2005 Avg Yds per Carry

Pass: 4.5
Evans: 3.7
Dillon: 3.5
Faulk: 2.8

 

[spacecrime]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=135169

Please note: Rushing totals for all four years - Attempts: 0 Yards: 0

Will he even know how to take a handoff?

I'm not saying "no" out of hand, but before you cut Pass for this guy, how about seeing if he can do that position?

I don't see Mills getting many carries in the Patriots offense. Not with Maroney and Dillon. And neither do I see Pass getting many.

Mills I see as a Larry Centers type FB, catcing the ball out of the backfield and maybe blocking, though the Pats rarely use a blocking FB except in short yardage goal line situations.

I think if Pass has to make the team based on running ability, he will have a tough time of it getting past Dillon and Maroney. If you accept that pick #106 Mills will not be cut, Pass has to do things that the quartet of Dillon-Maroney-Faulk-Mills cannot do, or hope the Pats carry five Rb/FBs, or that he displaces Faulk as a third down back, or that someone of the quartet gets injured. I think his best shot is the last one, which has less to do with Pass's ability than it does his availability.

It is true that Mills mever took a handoff in college, but he has three months to figure it out. If he can't so that, then he is a little less athletic that I give him credit for. He also never played FB in college, but neither did Pass at Georgia. If you draft smart athletic guys, they can often do a servicable job in other positions. Many QBs are taken as WRs and DBs, for instance.

Once again, can ANYONE here say that Pass has not improved each year?

I don't think that matters after six years. I am a firm believer that you do not cut a young player who is still improving because you don't know how high his ceiling is. But Pass has been around a long time, and even when there were injuries, he could not take up the slack, thus forcing the Pats to use guys like Abdullah, Evans and even trying has-beens like Amos Zeroue (sp?). His improvement started at such a low bottom. He just is not that good.

I was a Pass fan for a couple of years. He tore up the preseason for a couple of years and my son and I couldn't figure out why he never got a shot. But when he did get a shot, he seemed pretty average. A good backup that if the guy in front of him gets hurt, you sign someone else and keep Pass the backup.

I was pleased at some of the runs he made last year. And if we hadnt signed Maroney and Mills, or even hadn't signed both of them, Pass would have a shot. But two guys were drafted and sit higher on the food chain that Pass. Everyone shifted down a notch, and Pass has to leapfrog someone to stay in contention. Or he could move up in the event that Faulk goes on IR.

What about the surgery and weight gain? Is there a chance that Pass could be PUPed? That would keep him on theteam for a few weeks, and if anyone goes down, he could be actived mid-season. Or if not, cut then rather than in September.

Time will tell.

I think the RB position is pretty straightforward and easy to predict. It is the DB (especially safety) and LB positions that will be hard to predict until the end of exhibition games. And to a lesser extent OLine and the WR4 and WR5.

 

[shmessy]

Spacecrime wrote: "It is true that Mills mever took a handoff in college, but he has three months to figure it out. If he can't so that, then he is a little less athletic that I give him credit for. He also never played FB in college, but neither did Pass at Georgia. If you draft smart athletic guys, they can often do a servicable job in other positions. Many QBs are taken as WRs and DBs, for instance."
________________________________

See: "Klecko, Dan"

 

[shakadave]

BTW: 2005 Avg Yds per Carry

Pass: 4.5
Evans: 3.7
Dillon: 3.5
Faulk: 2.8

Shmess, great job on the data gathering. This makes our point.

And yes, 'Crime, Pass should indeed hope the Pats keep 5 RB/FB's , and so do I, because it's the right thing to do. This particular FB (Mills) does little to lower Pass on the depth chart, unless Mills suddenly becomes a RB, which I don't see. And don't forget Pass should get work on special teams. Time will tell....

 

[pats1]

But fear not, if he is cut, no one will pick him up. I saw in the link that you provided that Pass has been cut not once, but twice. And neither time did anyone pick him up. He may have gotten better, as PATS1 maintains, but no one signs a guy because he is better than he used to be. He will be signed only if he has potential to be worth it. After six years and medicore performance (evaluate with your head and not your heart here) he just doesn't have much to offer another team, IMO

That...that..was just...wow.

No one signs a guy because he is better than he used to be?

He's 28, not 38, for christsakes! He isn't coming off any ACL injury or whatnot, either.

Any player who has 1,000 total yards in the past two seasons and is not in the twilight of his career has plenty of potential - at least to continue at the improvement pace he's at, prior to even reaching the downswing of his career.

This isn't the draft. Potential is only part of the equation. In fact, Pass' steady improvement shows he does has the potential. Free agency is about proven players. By now, what he did 5, 6 years in the past really is irrelevant.

You keep using the word mediocre for his recent performance, which might be true in the grand scheme of things (placing guys like Brady at extraordinary and training camp fodder at horrible), but he's certainly fulfilled his role on the team. Teams will certainly take into account that, earlier on, there were guys like Anotwain Smith and Kevin Faulk and Larry Centers and Corey Dillon in his way. When his time came to start, he stepped up to the plate and performed admirably. If Brady was cut tomorrow, (again, I'll probably get flamed for saying this - just remember it's all relative) I don't think teams will not consider him because he's made steady improvement over the years after sitting on the bench behind Bledsoe for his rookie year BUT is about 30 years old and is only better than he was very early on.

A player like Pass just won't sit on the street with teams neglecting him because his first 4 years in the league were unspectacular.

It's what he'll bring to the team that matters.

 

[pats1]

I don't think that matters after six years. I am a firm believer that you do not cut a young player who is still improving because you don't know how high his ceiling is. But Pass has been around a long time, and even when there were injuries, he could not take up the slack, thus forcing the Pats to use guys like Abdullah, Evans and even trying has-beens like Amos Zeroue (sp?). His improvement started at such a low bottom. He just is not that good.

I was a Pass fan for a couple of years. He tore up the preseason for a couple of years and my son and I couldn't figure out why he never got a shot. But when he did get a shot, he seemed pretty average. A good backup that if the guy in front of him gets hurt, you sign someone else and keep Pass the backup.

I was pleased at some of the runs he made last year. And if we hadnt signed Maroney and Mills, or even hadn't signed both of them, Pass would have a shot. But two guys were drafted and sit higher on the food chain that Pass. Everyone shifted down a notch, and Pass has to leapfrog someone to stay in contention. Or he could move up in the event that Faulk goes on IR.

This is where I believe our philosophical difference lies.

You just seem so concerned with a player's ceiling, his draft position, his potential, his age, his development pace, etc.

For me, it's production. Potential is yes, a big factor in the draft, but to me so much less of a factor in free agency. I could honestly care less about how a player started out his career. If he rode the bench for three years, so be it. That's in the past. But if he's PRODUCED and has shown steady IMPROVEMENT and is not in the twilight of his career where his best days are long, long behind him, I see no reason to roadblock a producing player because of original status.

In many aspects, the draft can really be a crapshoot. I tend not to correlate draft position and pontential as much as others do. A player could be drafted 1st or 255th and it really wouldn't matter much to me as long as that player has shown he can compete and contribute to my team while playing a role on it. Just because he started out slow doesn't mean "he just isn't that good." I don't get myself so wrapped up in a player's potential or label as it's just so damn artificial. Once he steps out onto the field, the only thing that matters is what he will contribute to team that Sunday, that game, not some label that a scout threw on him many years ago.


Take this thread as an example:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=35137

Is anyone as excited about Jackson as I am? Can he over take Branch by the end of this year.

When December rolls around, who will be out #1 WR?

That pretty much sums it all up.

Yep, just because Jackson was drafted #36 means he has more potential than a #65 pick like Branch who only has, let's see, 2 Super Bowl rings and a Super Bowl MVP trophy hanging around his house, and has also PRODUCED and steadily improved his catch/game every year.

 

[SamBamsFan]

Spacecrime wrote: "It is true that Mills mever took a handoff in college, but he has three months to figure it out. If he can't so that, then he is a little less athletic that I give him credit for. He also never played FB in college, but neither did Pass at Georgia. If you draft smart athletic guys, they can often do a servicable job in other positions. Many QBs are taken as WRs and DBs, for instance."

...And Pass was origonally drafted as a WR though he had played only RB at Georgia.

 

[spacecrime]

Spacecrime wrote: "It is true that Mills mever took a handoff in college, but he has three months to figure it out. If he can't so that, then he is a little less athletic that I give him credit for. He also never played FB in college, but neither did Pass at Georgia. If you draft smart athletic guys, they can often do a servicable job in other positions. Many QBs are taken as WRs and DBs, for instance."
________________________________

See: "Klecko, Dan"

I had thought you were interested in discussing Pass, Mills, etc seriously, not acting like Pats1. My statement above is that Mills will be able to take handoffs, and that QBs are drafted to be WRs and DBs. And your response is Dan Klecko, like because you have a low opinion of him, that is somehow connected to Randle El, Matt Jones, etc.

I suppose I could say in response,
See Brushci, Tedy.
See MacGinest, Wille
See Wilson, Eugene
See Vrabel, Mike
See ....

... too many examples to mention just on the Patriots, never mind other teams, of guys who are playing a position other than the one they played in college, but if you believe that Mills will be cut because he will be unable to learn how to accept a handoff, we no longer have a common frame of reference and I think it is time for me to leave this thread to you and Pats1. We can revisit it in September, if you wish, and see who among Mills, Pass and Klecko are on the Pats roster, or any NFL team.

 

[pats1]

I had thought you were interested in discussing Pass, Mills, etc seriously, not acting like Pats1.

Explain yourself.

 

[Tyler Faith]

Actually...

I like Pass. He's reliable, durable and hasn't really had the chance to show all his tools yet. I hope they work him into a larger role so we can see him reach his potential.

My 2 cents.

 

[Pats726]

Mills...Pass?? Which would one take?? I really see them keeping both as almost a zero chance..unless there are major injuries.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

The reason I see Patrick with an edge to make the roster isn't his RB duties and improvement, although they help, it's his play on Special Teams, specifically the Carolina game. I think it was Chris Gamble who took a kick and was eventually dragged down by Ben Watson (forerunner to the Champ Bailey play), but what allowed Ben to make the play was Patrick out running Gamble back up the field and turning him into Ben's pursuit as he swerved to avoid Patrick. As long as folks are going to (rightly) get all excited about Ben's hustle in Denver, I have to say I'm pretty excited about Patrick's hustle on Special Teams and his no surrender attitude.

Despite some of the acrimony in this thread, I am excited to see the competition at specific positions, and between positions, for roster slots. For example: the offensive backfield is competing just as much with the defensive backfield for roster space. Training Camp is going to be chaotic keeping track of the individual and team efforts, poor Stan and Mrs. B trying to record their impressions.

 

[patsfan209]

Kyle Eckel... a moot point

Eckel had to serve his time in the Navy. As soon as he got to Miami, he went on the Reserve/Military list. It would have been the same thing in Foxboro...

I recall reading in one of the Globe's Pats Q&A that the Navy wouldn't allow Eckel to play even if he managed to make the Dolphins roster. (Not in these exact words, but thats what the understanding was when I read it.)

But I agree here, if Eckel had made the Pats team, the Navy won't let him play. Too bad. When he played with the Pats in preseason, he looked like an upgrade from Pass. And I was on Kyle's bandwagon too...

 

[PatsFanInVa]

This is one of those "most likely to be figured out in camp" threads. A fourth rounder (Mills) is not a horrible pick to lose, right out of the gate, but it's sure not what you hope for, and at some point roster logic becomes a zero-sum calculation.

I like Pass as a swiss-army-knife of a player, something the Pats just adore. But certain spots are locked up by the, ahem, givens (starters, near-starters, those guys,) and certain other spots have to go to the best possible options (f'rinstance, the depth at corner and LB). We might even have to use spots on wideouts we aren't salivating for, just so we don't end up in a game an injury or two down the road, forced to play all two-receiver sets.

The number of guys who "make it because of special teams" keeps growing... a number of linebackers, the much maligned Bethel Johnson, Pass, Izzo (of course,) etc. etc. etc. A lot of guys bring some ST ability to the table, but even that's not a lock if each part of what you do is replicated and/or exceeded elsewhere on the team. We'll see what Mills brings... but I'm not sure we see Pass out there on Sundays this year. Certainly, if he's plateau'd, I don't think he makes the cut for next year.

But who knows what evil lurks in the heart of the Turk?

PFnV

 

[Pats726]

Training Camp is going to be chaotic keeping track of the individual and team efforts, poor Stan and Mrs. B trying to record their impressions.

It will be fun..but agree..hard...BUT I wonder how much off the scene will help make the difference...Maybe coming down to something of how they view the position??? Such as they did with picking Gay over Buckley?? The rook over the vet?? I can't wait to go and see...and view!! I am sure MrsB will be hard as work..) I am but a young soph...watching..

 

[spacecrime]

A fourth rounder (Mills) is not a horrible pick to lose,

Why would you think this? A fourth round pick that doesn';t make the team is a horrible mis-choice. Especially Mills, as he was the ninth pick. You don't get much closer to a first day pick. He also will get a six figure signing bonus.

I can see blowing off a seventh rouknd pick, even sixth rounders as they are often chosen for possible great potential vs likely bust, but fourth and fifth round picks should make the team barring a plain bad selection.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Why would you think this? A fourth round pick that doesn';t make the team is a horrible mis-choice. Especially Mills, as he was the ninth pick. You don't get much closer to a first day pick. He also will get a six figure signing bonus.

I can see blowing off a seventh rouknd pick, even sixth rounders as they are often chosen for possible great potential vs likely bust, but fourth and fifth round picks should make the team barring a plain bad selection.

As I said, cutting a four is not the end of the world... but you sure don't go into camp hoping it happens. Which means, aside from the warm bodies you bring in for camp competition, we start edging toward the "zero sum" nature of the exercise from the day the draft ends.

Which means if you're Pass, a Mills in camp dents your value immediately.

PFnV

 

[spacecrime]

As I said, cutting a four is not the end of the world...

No, but it indicates a serious problem with your draft board. Fourth round picks aren't in competition for a producing spot on the team. They aren't cut because they aren't as good as the vets you sign. Fourth round picks don't have to beat anyone out in camp. Rookies are not expected to be NFL ready after training camp. They are not expected to produce their first year. Fine if they do, but anything they give you early on is gravy.

For a fourth round pick to be cut in training camp, it means a serious misjudgement has been made.