Pass Won't Get Cut

[PatsWickedPissah]

Unless a RB is injured in camp, Pass is GONE. His alleged utility has maxed out at not a high value. Younger players with versitility and potential upside are on the roster.

 

[pats1]

Honestly I don't care about the hamstring play. One bad play does not make a player's career. But on the whole I think that Pass is a mediocre player as a RB/FB. The only reason he has stuck around is versatility and the ability to play ST. I think if Mills sticks he knocks out Pass from the 53 because Mills will be a LOT better pass catcher from the backfield then Pass.

The top 4 would then be Dillon, Faulk, Maroney, Mills. Mills will play the versatile split back or H back role depending on how you look at it. The only concern is will Mills make the team. If the coaching staff believes that he belongs I think that spells the end for Pass who is a very limited player. We've seen the best of Patrick Pass and quite frankly I have not been impressed.

You'd get the production in the passing game from Mills, yes, but Mills would never be a tailback, kick returner, or lead blocker like Pass. I don't see them battling for the same roster spot. They're two totally different players.

 

[spacecrime]

Where in the world did you get those numbers?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5269

Like mgteich just said, the running game is only one facet of Pass.

The others are as a third down back and return man. Pass is NOT a lead blocker. Hockstein, Klecko, Seymour,Vrabel. You need a blocking FB, oneof those are used,not Pass. Faulk is a much better pass catcher (This time YOU look up the stats. They are there for you. His return skills have dimisnished each year.

In 2004, he had only 5 games where no stats were recorded or the log acutally lists him as DNP. In 2005, he had 7 of those such occurces, with 5 coming as a result of his injury.

Neither statement is correct. See the link above. He had 4 DNPs, where he never stepped onto the field. In addition, he had two games (weeks 1 and 2) where he had no stats. Having no stats is NOT DNP.

As far as his four DNPs being the result of injury, wouldn't they all be together if he was recovering? He logged a DNP in weeks 9 and 10, had his two biggest games of the year in weeks 11 and 12, then 2 DNPs in weeks 13 and 14. Obviously all the DNPs were not for him recuperating from his injury. As I recall, he played in the game right after the injury. I forget what game he threw the ball on the ground. CHeck the link above.

The diminishing return stats prove two things:

1) The Patriots, as we already know, had to rely much more on Faulk and Pass prior to the coming of Bethel/Davis/Dwight/Hobbs in kick returns.

2) Pass has, which any Patriot fan has noticed, had his roles diminish as an actual returner because his role in the offense has increased.

I understand Pass's number of returns going down becuase of better returners, but I guess you'll have to explain what Bethel Johnson has to do with Pass's AVG return going from

2003= 23 AVG
2004= 19 AVG
2005= 15 AVG

and his longest return of the year:

2003= 36
2004= 24
2005= 21

These stats have nothing to do with Bethel or Davis or anything else. His average return yard dropped each year and his longest return of the year dropped each year.

Why did I only choose those years? Did you not claim Pass had not improved since his release/re-sign in 2003?

You chose those years because his stats those years are mediocre. Other years they are horrible. You did the best you could with what you had to work with.

I said he was cut in 2003 and no one picked him up - not one team - and that in 2006 he is older and slower and no one will be likely to pick him up if he gets cut again in 2006. The topic was not did-he-go-from-horrible-to-merely-mediocre, but I was responding to someone beliving that if we cut him he was sure to be signed by someone else. I will grant you that Pass played better in 2004 and 2005 than in 2000-2003, but that is becuase he was so horrible in 2000-2003 that he could not possibly have gotten worse.

Hey, we will see what happens in September. You have an opinion of Pass and so do I. We will see if he gets cut, and if anyone picks him up if he does. Just please stop saying he does all these wondrous things, because it is plain to see that he hasn't.

Mills would never be a ... lead blocker like Pass.

You and I have found an area of total agreement.

 

[tkayo]

Difficult to predict. I wouldn't be surprised if Izzo, Pass, Evans, or Bethel are cut.

Pass is still in my doghouse from that boneheaded hamstring fumble he made against the Bills last year.

That fumble was one of the strangest things I have ever seen. I thought he'd be cut that Monday.

 

[shmessy]

Of course he would be picked up. The Pass of 2006 doesn't even compare to the Pass of 2003 in both stats and leauge-wide publicity.

Exactly. This is the one player on the team who makes a quantum leap each year in improvement. And he is still getting better. He had an excellent year last year and for much of it was the glue holding that running game together. His special teams coverage is excellent also.

I want to smoke whatever Brady-To-Branch is on when he claims that Evans is better than Pass. That was perhaps the most incredible statement I've seen on here in a long time.

 

[pats1]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?statsId=5269

The others are as a third down back and return man. Pass is NOT a lead blocker. Hockstein, Klecko, Seymour,Vrabel. You need a blocking FB, oneof those are used,not Pass. Faulk is a much better pass catcher (This time YOU look up the stats. They are there for you. His return skills have dimisnished each year.)

His return skills have diminished because he has barely returned any kicks! Pass' time in the offense has vastly increased in 2004 and 2005. There wasn't the need to return kicks as there was in 2000-2002, with mainly Bethel and later on Dwight/Davis/Hobbs in the fold.

Neither statement is correct. See the link above. He had 4 DNPs, where he never stepped onto the field. In addition, he had two games (weeks 1 and 2) where he had no stats. Having no stats is NOT DNP.

I've been using NFL.com, which lists no stats for some games and DNP for the others.

As far as his four DNPs being the result of injury, wouldn't they all be together if he was recovering? He logged a DNP in weeks 9 and 10, had his two biggest games of the year in weeks 11 and 12, then 2 DNPs in weeks 13 and 14. Obviously all the DNPs were not for him recuperating from his injury. As I recall, he played in the game right after the injury. I forget what game he threw the ball on the ground. Check the link above.

He missed the 2 games after the injury. He tried coming back for another 2 games because of injuries to Faulk/Evans/Dillon (can't remember who). Limped through two more games before missing another 2. Also missed Week 17.

I understand Pass's number of returns going down becuase of better returners, but I guess you'll have to explain what Bethel Johnson has to do with Pass's AVG return going from

2003= 23 AVG
2004= 19 AVG
2005= 15 AVG

and his longest return of the year:

2003= 36
2004= 24
2005= 21

These stats have nothing to do with Bethel or Davis or anything else. His average return yard dropped each year and his longest return of the year dropped each year.

He had TWO returns in 2005 and SIX in 2004. That's WAY too small of a sample size for averages and longs to have any significance.

You chose those years because his stats those years are mediocre. Other years they are horrible. You did the best you could with what you had to work with.

I chose the stats because you were making a case that he hasn't improved since 2003. That is clearly not the case. Stop denying it.

I said he was cut in 2003 and no one picked him up - not one team - and that in 2006 he is older and slower and no one will be likely to pick him up if he gets cut again in 2006. The topic was not did-he-go-from-horrible-to-merely-mediocre, but I was responding to someone beliving that if we cut him he was sure to be signed by someone else. I will grant you that Pass played better in 2004 and 2005 than in 2000-2003, but that is becuase he was so horrible in 2000-2003 that he could not possibly have gotten worse.

Do you seriously think a team will look at Pass, if released, and say "Oh, he was horrible before 2004. He's now older and slower and we don't want him."

No. They'll look at how he's improved, how his stats have gone up, how the BEST SOURCE - the TEAM - has utilized him MORE and how he has performed ABOVE replacement level. They'll look at his versatility and how he's MORPHED as a player to fit the TEAM'S NEEDS. His recent STEADY IMRPOVEMENT will be VALUED more than his PAST GROWTH PERIOD where he wasn't as INVOLVED in the offense.

 

[spacecrime]

Exactly. This is the one player on the team who makes a quantum leap each year in improvement. And he is still getting better. He had an excellent year last year and for much of it was the glue holding that running game together. His special teams coverage is excellent also.

Exactly. Alas, there is obviously no way we will be able to afford to keep him. He's on the last year of his contract, right? No way the Pats will be able to pay him what he is worth. Pass will be taking the Givens route to a megabuck contract.

Luckily BB saw this coming. Now we know why he drafted Maroney in the first (to try to replace Pass's running skills), Thomas in the third and Mills in the fourth ( catch passes out of the backfield and block), Willie Anderson in the seventh (to return kicks), and signed Mel Mitchell and Tebucky Jones (STs).

Well, they won't replace him, but it's a start.

Maybe we could franchise him in 2007.....

<sigh>

when is mini-camp again?

 

[pats1]

Exactly. Alas, there is obviously no way we will be able to afford to keep him. He's on the last year of his contract, right? No way the Pats will be able to pay him what he is worth. Pass will be taking the Givens route to a megabuck contract.

Luckily BB saw this coming. Now we know why he drafted Maroney in the first (to try to replace Pass's running skills), Thomas in the third and Mills in the fourth ( catch passes out of the backfield and block), Willie Anderson in the seventh (to return kicks), and signed Mel Mitchell and Tebucky Jones (STs).

Well, they won't replace him, but it's a start.

Maybe we could franchise him in 2007.....

<sigh>

when is mini-camp again?

I'll take your sarcasm as a sign of defeat.

 

[spacecrime]

I'll take your sarcasm as a sign of defeat.

Actually, I just realized that I was speaking to a wall, and kind of lost interest. The facts are as they are, as I posted. The interpretation of those facts is where we differ.

You are welcome to believe that Pass is great.

I don't.

We will just have to wait until September. If Pass is on the 53, I will publically admit that he is better than I thought. If he is cut, you know what to do. And if he is cut we can see if anyone signs him ....

And remember, we both agree that Mills will never be the blocker that Pass is.

 

[shmessy]

Actually, I just realized that I was speaking to a wall, and kind of lost interest. The facts are as they are, as I posted. The interpretation of those facts is where we differ.

You are welcome to believe that Pass is great.

I don't.

We will just have to wait until September. If Pass is on the 53, I will publically admit that he is better than I thought. If he is cut, you know what to do. And if he is cut we can see if anyone signs him ....

And remember, we both agree that Mills will never be the blocker that Pass is.

Let's put it this way. If Banta-Cain and Bethel improved as much each season as Pass has, we'd have fewer question marks at LB and WR.

Each year Pass has been getting better. He's only 28 and is still on the upswing. Those that want to keep Heath Evans over this guy .......

 

[DaBruinz]

Pats1 -
Where is O'Callahan? Also, I doubt the Patriots carry 4 guys who can play center in Koppen, Hochstein, Tucker and Mruczkowski unless Koppen goes onto the PUP. I think that Britt will push Gorin for his back-up position.

Also, I disagree that the Pats would keep Tebucky Jones over Artrell Hawkins. Jones just is NOT a leader and the Pats will need someone who can spell Harrison. Hawkins can do that.

Alot will depend on injuries and how players like Koppen, Harrison and Light are doing. Of the 3, only Light is sounding like he'll be ready for camp and opening night. Harrison and Koppen could end up going on the PUP.

Also, I believe that Don Davis and Larry Izzo are closer to be gone than staying. Davis already has the unofficial job of assistant trainer. I wouldn't be surprised if he was cut and stayed with the team in that capacity. I wouldn't be surprised if Alexander made the roster over Izzo or Davis.

My concerns with this roster is that Bethel and Hobbs would be your primary returners and its questionable whether Bethel can handle punt returning. I do understand that he has the punt return for the TD, but there is still plenty of questions there.

Stevenson and LeKevan Smith are prime candidates for the practice squad. As is Ray Ventrone and Willie Andrews.

Just a side note. You forgot Jeremy Lloyd as well as O'Callahan.

Agree completely.

My projected 53 man:

QBs (3):

Tom Brady
*Jay Fielder* or Corey Bramlet (#3)
Matt Cassel

RBs/FBs (5):

Corey Dillon
Laurence Maroney
Kevin Faulk
Patrick Pass
Garrett Mills

TEs (3):

Daniel Graham
Ben Watson
David Thomas

WRs (5)

Deion Branch
Reche Caldwell
Chad Jackson
Troy Brown
Bethel Johnson

OL (9)

Matt Light
Logan Mankins
Dan Koppen
Stephen Neal
Nick Kaczur
Russ Hochstein
Brandon Gorin
Gene Mruczkowski
Ross Tucker

DL (6)

Richard Seymour
Vince Wilfork
Ty Warren
Jarvis Green
Marquise Hill
Mike Wright

LBs (9)

Tedy Bruschi
Rosevelt Colvin
Mike Vrabel
Monty Beisel
Tully Banta-Cain
Jeremy Mincey
Ryan Claridge
Larry Izzo
Don Davis

CB (5)

Asante Samuel
Randall Gay
Ellis Hobbs
Eric Warfield
Chad Scott

S (5)

Rodney Harrison
Eugene Wilson
Tebucky Jones
Mel Mitchell
James Sanders

K/P/LS (3)

Stephen Gostkowski
Josh Miller
Lonie Paxton

Which means the following notable players get the boot:

Bam Childress
Artrell Hawkins
Eric Alexander
Barry Gardner
Hank Poteat
Guss Scott
Ray Ventrone
Willie Andrews
Le Kevin Smith
Martin Gramatica
Dan Klecko
Wesley Britt
Billy Yates
Dan Stevenson

Chad Scott, if Law is signed

 

[DaBruinz]

I am not one in the group who feels the Pats will keep Evans over Pass. However, that doesn't mean that Pass will necessarily make this team. If the rumors about Pass are true and he put on 30 lbs in the 2 months between the season ending and the the off-season conditioning program starting, he's got some health issues.

 

[spacecrime]

Each year Pass has been getting better. He's only 28 and is still on the upswing. Those that want to keep Heath Evans over this guy .......

Please answer one question for me. Why was Heath Evans active for the Denver playoff game and Patrick Pass inactive? Why do you think BB made that decision? Does it say anything about which player BB thinks will give the Patriots the best chance to win? Okay, three questions

 

[pats1]

Pats1 -
Where is O'Callahan? Also, I doubt the Patriots carry 4 guys who can play center in Koppen, Hochstein, Tucker and Mruczkowski unless Koppen goes onto the PUP. I think that Britt will push Gorin for his back-up position.

Also, I disagree that the Pats would keep Tebucky Jones over Artrell Hawkins. Jones just is NOT a leader and the Pats will need someone who can spell Harrison. Hawkins can do that.

Alot will depend on injuries and how players like Koppen, Harrison and Light are doing. Of the 3, only Light is sounding like he'll be ready for camp and opening night. Harrison and Koppen could end up going on the PUP.

Also, I believe that Don Davis and Larry Izzo are closer to be gone than staying. Davis already has the unofficial job of assistant trainer. I wouldn't be surprised if he was cut and stayed with the team in that capacity. I wouldn't be surprised if Alexander made the roster over Izzo or Davis.

My concerns with this roster is that Bethel and Hobbs would be your primary returners and its questionable whether Bethel can handle punt returning. I do understand that he has the punt return for the TD, but there is still plenty of questions there.

Stevenson and LeKevan Smith are prime candidates for the practice squad. As is Ray Ventrone and Willie Andrews.

Just a side note. You forgot Jeremy Lloyd as well as O'Callahan.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showpost.php?p=105327&postcount=39

 

[pats1]

Please answer one question for me. Why was Heath Evans active for the Denver playoff game and Patrick Pass inactive? Why do you think BB made that decision? Does it say anything about which player BB thinks will give the Patriots the best chance to win? Okay, three questions

Because Pass was still injured and clearly wasn't even close to 100% when he tried to come back a few weeks earlier?

 

[spacecrime]

Because Pass was still injured and clearly wasn't even close to 100% when he tried to come back a few weeks earlier?

I don't know. You could be right. Was his fumble late in the year? I had thought he did the ball toss thing against Buffalo, and then had the best back-to-back games of his career three weeks later against NO and KC, which would imply that he had recovered. But he also logged a couple DNPs after KC, didn't he?

Did he re-injure himself? Sorry, too lazy or not interested enough to look it up.

For the record, I don't think Heath Evans will make the team, but like DaBruinz, I don't think that will have any bearing on Pass's future with the team.

As it stands, the following:

Dillon-Maroney-Faulk-Mills

can do anything that needs to be done out of the backfield. Pass's future (and Evans) is dependent on one of those four going on IR. Failing that, neither Pass nor Evans has a place on the team.

 

[pats1]

I don't know. You could be right. Was his fumble late in the year? I had thought he did the ball toss thing against Buffalo, and then had the best back-to-back games of his career three weeks later against NO and KC, which would imply that he had recovered. But he also logged a couple DNPs after KC, didn't he?

Did he re-injure himself? Sorry, too lazy or not interested enough to look it up.

I've been trying to find the same thing. I knew my argument would have a hole in the NO/KC games.

 

[shakadave]

Pats1 -
Where is O'Callahan? Also, I doubt the Patriots carry 4 guys who can play center in Koppen, Hochstein, Tucker and Mruczkowski unless Koppen goes onto the PUP. I think that Britt will push Gorin for his back-up position.

Also, I disagree that the Pats would keep Tebucky Jones over Artrell Hawkins. Jones just is NOT a leader and the Pats will need someone who can spell Harrison. Hawkins can do that.

Alot will depend on injuries and how players like Koppen, Harrison and Light are doing. Of the 3, only Light is sounding like he'll be ready for camp and opening night. Harrison and Koppen could end up going on the PUP.

Also, I believe that Don Davis and Larry Izzo are closer to be gone than staying. Davis already has the unofficial job of assistant trainer. I wouldn't be surprised if he was cut and stayed with the team in that capacity. I wouldn't be surprised if Alexander made the roster over Izzo or Davis.

My concerns with this roster is that Bethel and Hobbs would be your primary returners and its questionable whether Bethel can handle punt returning. I do understand that he has the punt return for the TD, but there is still plenty of questions there.

Stevenson and LeKevan Smith are prime candidates for the practice squad. As is Ray Ventrone and Willie Andrews.

Just a side note. You forgot Jeremy Lloyd as well as O'Callahan.

Is there any way the Pats keep Don Davis just through Week 1, quickly switching him off the roster after that and putting a temporary PS player back on the 53-man before other teams have time to claim him (whoever he is) so that IF we go all the way there's a ring for Davis?

 

[Joker]

Let's put it this way. If Banta-Cain and Bethel improved as much each season as Pass has, we'd have fewer question marks at LB and WR.

Each year Pass has been getting better. He's only 28 and is still on the upswing. Those that want to keep Heath Evans over this guy .......

Yeah..maybe he'll throw three or four balls on the ground as he pulls hamstrings just running to the outside again.


Please, you clowns are delusional...Patrick Pass??..big contract next year???Are you sniffing glue?

when he gets cut are all you Pass swabs gonna moan and cry all season like the Drewpy groupies did?

 

[shmessy]

I don't know. You could be right. Was his fumble late in the year? I had thought he did the ball toss thing against Buffalo, and then had the best back-to-back games of his career three weeks later against NO and KC, which would imply that he had recovered. But he also logged a couple DNPs after KC, didn't he?

Did he re-injure himself? Sorry, too lazy or not interested enough to look it up.

For the record, I don't think Heath Evans will make the team, but like DaBruinz, I don't think that will have any bearing on Pass's future with the team.

As it stands, the following:

Dillon-Maroney-Faulk-Mills

can do anything that needs to be done out of the backfield. Pass's future (and Evans) is dependent on one of those four going on IR. Failing that, neither Pass nor Evans has a place on the team.

Turf toe. Don't laugh, it's what drove Barry Sanders and others to the sidelines many times in their careers. For a RB it's a real injury. He's had it since high school and never has been able to fully push off. This offseason he had surgery to finally correct it - should be interesting if it results in better acceleration for him.

Here's the link: http://patriots.bostonherald.com/patriots/view.bg?articleid=138964&format=text

BTW, Crime, on what basis are you promoting Mills? You watched him play much?