Pass Won't Get Cut

[Remix 6]

How often did Minnesota send him out to catch? Or pass play designed for him? Picking up blitzes..watch some game film..hes does pretty good..he tries and does slow down the guy more than enough

 

[spacecrime]

Like I've said, history really trends towards the Pats carrying 5 total players in the backfield.

2005:

Dillon
Faulk
Pass
Evans
Cloud/Zereoue

As I recall, the Pats went into 2005 with three RBs, Dillon-Faulk-Pass. The others were added as RBs were injured.

I don't recall the last time the Pats had 5 RBs on the opening day roster.

And I don't think 2006 will be the next time, either.

 

[pats1]

As I recall, the Pats went into 2005 with three RBs, Dillon-Faulk-Pass. The others were added as RBs were injured.

I don't recall the last time the Pats had 5 RBs on the opening day roster.

And I don't think 2006 will be the next time, either.

That's correct. I think the Pats began to realize a bit of a mistake on their part when Faulk went down with a major injury for the second season in a row, Dillon had his injuries, and Pass had his own injury later in the year.

2005 was, obviously, coming off 2004, when Dillon had a healthy, 1600 yard season.

It's 2006 now, and Faulk has missed some 15 games in the past two seasons to injury, and Dillon has proven injury prone and is only getting older. There's much less reliability than there was in 2005. Pass WILL get picked up by another team if cut - there's no doubt about that. He's certainly better than the other replacement RBs that will be floating around (Zereoue, Evans, Chatman, Wells, Gordon, etc.). He's a proven player with the Patriots, one that knows the system well and is a versatile option who can step up and fill holes across a few different positions.

You're also right about 2004. Cobbs went on the P.U.P to begin the year. Abdullah was signed September 11, released in November, and returned in late December.

In 2003, Cloud started the year off suspended, and Pass was cut. Smith, Faulk, Centers, and McCrary were all on the roster. When Colvin and Compton went to the I.R., Pass and Wilbert Brown returned. When Cloud came back, McCrary was cut. When Aric Morris was cut, McCrary came back. When Banta-Cain was activated from the PUP and Mayer came up from the practice squad, Klemm went on I.R. and Centers was cut. When Dedric Ward was signed, McCrary went to the I.R. When J.J. Stokes was waived, Centers was re-signed.

When it was all said and done, the Pats did end up with 5 backs on both the 2004 and 2003 squads for the playoffs.


What I'm getting at is if the Pats want Pass, a fairly proven player with lots of experience in their system, to help them out if the oft-injured Faulk or injury-prone Dillon goes down, they'll need to keep him on the roster. They don't have the luxury they had in 2003. Pass' stats-explosion and his versatility over the past few years hasn't gone unnoticed.

 

[bucky]

Considering Mills never carried the ball in his entire college carier, it's probably premature to say he gets a RB spot on the team. If anything I'd classify Mills' roster spot either as the 4th TE or as a core ST player.

That said, Pass' chances of making the 53 man roster are directly linked to his ability to make the 45 man active roster. And that will be related directly to his ability to keep his spots on Special Teams.

Off the top of my head, Pass' ST contributions break out as follows:
Kickoff team - starter
Punt Team - starter
Kickoff Returner - 2nd or 3rd string
Kickoff Return Team (as a blocker) - not sure if he starts here, but he could.

His regular offense contributions look something like this:
RB - 3rd/4th string
3rd down back - 2nd string
Short yardage back - 2nd string (assuming Evans isn't on the team)
FB - 1st string, but irrelevant given the PAts will probably carry 4 active TEs

These are enough to keep him active as long as he stays a starter on ST. However, it's entirely possible that new players like Mills, Thomas, Claridge, Tebucky, and Gardner will provide an equal - or even better - ST contribution. In that case, Pass doesn't justify a roster spot as a true backup.

 

[patsox23]

What I'm getting at is if the Pats want Pass, a fairly proven player with lots of experience in their system, to help them out if the oft-injured Faulk or injury-prone Dillon goes down, they'll need to keep him on the roster. They don't have the luxury they had in 2003. Pass' stats-explosion and his versatility over the past few years hasn't gone unnoticed.

As someone who has not yet embraced the "Pass as LOCK" paradigm, I have to say this is the most convincing argument I've read thus far. Good work.

 

[BradyManny]

If there ever was a time to keep the best player, it is this year, when we have money up the wazoo. I don';t believe in overpaying, but I think Faulk's 2006 salary of $1.9 million is reasonable.

Very good point. And as you said in another thread, it looks like cutting Faulk wouldn't be finacially smart either.

Ultimately, Faulk helps this team, no doubt. If there was a compelling reason to cut him to save money to get a player that they really wanted and needed, then I would be for cutting him, but that seems like an unlikely scenario.

 

[shakadave]

The discussion on this thread has been educational for me. After reading it all, I am still about where Pats1 is in my thinking.

Maroney fills a different role than Pass. I think Mills fills a very different role than Pass.

Pass wins most tiebreakers with other players trying to win a roster spot on ST because if you suddenly need a running back, Pass has been there, done that, and done it reasonably well. Pass would certainly be picked up by another team if we let him go. He's now officially a "veteran" in the sense that another team could scoop him up and count on a certain amount of NFL smarts already being in place.

Pass is unspectacular, but solid in so many ways, and versatile to boot. I give him roster spot #51 out of 53.

 

[pats1]

The discussion on this thread has been educational for me. After reading it all, I am still about where Pats1 is in my thinking.

Maroney fills a different role than Pass. I think Mills fills a very different role than Pass.

Pass wins most tiebreakers with other players trying to win a roster spot on ST because if you suddenly need a running back, Pass has been there, done that, and done it reasonably well. Pass would certainly be picked up by another team if we let him go. He's now officially a "veteran" in the sense that another team could scoop him up and count on a certain amount of NFL smarts already being in place.

Pass is unspectacular, but solid in so many ways, and versatile to boot. I give him roster spot #51 out of 53.

Exactly my thoughts. The more times I watch 3GTG III (just did this afternoon), the more I realize how each Patriot player makes their own special contribution in one way or another.

 

[spacecrime]

The more times I watch 3GTG III (just did this afternoon), the more I realize how each Patriot player makes their own special contribution in one way or another.

It is amazing, issn't it. The same with 3GTG and 3GTG II. So many players has so many key roles. But the fact that Pass had a key roll in a SB or playoff has nothing to do with whether he stays this year. Remember Jerome WIggins in 2001, 10 catches in the Snow Bowl. Remember JR Redmon in 2001? Remember his run late in the Snow Bowl. Remember with under a minute to play in SB XXXVI, how he refused to go down and how he dragged two Rams to the sidelines to stop the clock?

Awesome contributions. But Wiggins and Redmond were both cut.

That's the thing of it. You can't look back and see what a player did and say he should be here next year. It is how he fits into this year's team that counts, and that is the only thing that counts.

 

[Joker]

You don't have any right to question his mental toughness. You don't see him on a day-by-day basis. You are basing your radical presumption on a single, inconsequential play while utterly ignoring his important contributions to the team over the years.

It's not a radical presumption you pretentious fop..it is borne out of real time observation. BTW I've seen every single play of every single game FOR DECADES. I've observed Patrick Pass's contributions to this team since he was first taken and IMHO he's an average to below average NFL running back with a very low pain threshold...quite obvious by his THROWING THE BALL TO THE GROUND when he pulled a hamstring. He didn't go down holding the ball...he THREW IT and clutched his leg with both hands. I saw that play over and over and I don't know anybody who wasn't disgusted and sickened by his lack of concern for the team. You can call it "an inconsequential play" and wave your Pass pom poms until hell freezes over.

 

[Remix 6]

it wasnt a pulled hamstring..thats why he went to hospital? how about all other carries? Dont come in with that ****..he fumbled once that looked bad and your all on him.

 

[pats1]

It's not a radical presumption you pretentious fop..it is borne out of real time observation. BTW I've seen every single play of every single game FOR DECADES. I've observed Patrick Pass's contributions to this team since he was first taken and IMHO he's an average to below average NFL running back with a very low pain threshold...quite obvious by his THROWING THE BALL TO THE GROUND when he pulled a hamstring. He didn't go down holding the ball...he THREW IT and clutched his leg with both hands. I saw that play over and over and I don't know anybody who wasn't disgusted and sickened by his lack of concern for the team. You can call it "an inconsequential play" and wave your Pass pom poms until hell freezes over.

And if the team felt that way he would have been cut the next day or be thrown on the bench for the rest of the year. Neither was the case.

 

[the taildragger]

i really hope that was more than a pulled hammy...but that aside, he's definitely a playmaker and wears a lot of hats...I can't see us cutting him either.

he came up big in the comeback effort on our first trip to denver, but they were resting their starters by then, and we really needed a ground game in the first half.

Pass also had a tremendous 19 yard run in Atlanta to put AV in chip shot range on the final drive -- they knew he was running up the gut but just couldn't stop him...although Atlanta's run D last year was notoriously bad, especially at the tail end of that game after losing Hartwell. Now was I happy with his effort in KC?, no, but he's not supposed to be our featured back...more of a jack of all trades and emergency option.

As far as comparing Pass's fumble with Tom's INT in Denver, all I can say is that some of us are VERY spoiled fans...please keep in mind that no QB in history has thrown fewer postseason INTs per attempt than our guy. Let's pick on someone else, ok?

 

[Joker]

And if the team felt that way he would have been cut the next day or be thrown on the bench for the rest of the year. Neither was the case.

yeah OK...let's play your iddle widdle spoiled brat game

how about Todd Rucci...did you see all those plays he was in on for years???He was terrific...I really thought he was vital...just like Max Lane...who cares if the two of them trudged off the field with their shoulders sloped after another 3 and out? who cares that Bledsoe was beaten to a pulp to the tune of 6.5 sacks per game average the last two years of Carroll's tenure? So what?? They MADE SOME PLAYS TOO!!! One time Rucci got pushed back 5 yards on a straight dive play and the Pats lost seven yards and punted on 3rd and a fooit but the very next series HE WAS BLOCKING WHEN DREW HIT A 20 YARD PASS!!!! Why did we ever get rid of him??? He had GREAT VALUE to the team...and Max too!! Do you realize how many plays they made that weren't below average? I just wish they were back on the squad...and I wish Drew was back too...because he played a lot of games too !!! And he did great inb a lot of them!!! Why would anyone want to see Drew go to another team? Just imagine, we could have Drew and Rucci and Lane and John Stephens on our offense...why would anyone think of dropping those guys??? They were great!!! Just like Patrick Pass!!!

 

[spacecrime]

yeah OK...let's play your iddle widdle spoiled brat game

how about Todd Rucci...did you see all those plays he was in on for years???He was terrific...I really thought he was vital...just like Max Lane...who cares if the two of them trudged off the field with their shoulders sloped after another 3 and out? who cares that Bledsoe was beaten to a pulp to the tune of 6.5 sacks per game average the last two years of Carroll's tenure? So what?? They MADE SOME PLAYS TOO!!! One time Rucci got pushed back 5 yards on a straight dive play and the Pats lost seven yards and punted on 3rd and a fooit but the very next series HE WAS BLOCKING WHEN DREW HIT A 20 YARD PASS!!!! Why did we ever get rid of him??? He had GREAT VALUE to the team...and Max too!! Do you realize how many plays they made that weren't below average? I just wish they were back on the squad...and I wish Drew was back too...because he played a lot of games too !!! And he did great inb a lot of them!!! Why would anyone want to see Drew go to another team? Just imagine, we could have Drew and Rucci and Lane and John Stephens on our offense...why would anyone think of dropping those guys??? They were great!!! Just like Patrick Pass!!!

Reggie Dupard had a couple good runs. And he didn't throw the ball on the ground when he got hurt, either. Plus he caught passes out of the backfield.

Don't forget Chris Canty. Three sacks and four INTs over a career shortened by that short-sighted Patriotsfront office that ignored his contributions.

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

How is Evans worth more than Pass?!? Like I've said - Pass hasn't seriously returned kicks since 2003. His role is just as it was in 2004 - the starting "FB."

Evans doesn't appear to be as injury prone as Pass and he showed flashes of being an effective runner (Miami and New Orleans games). If Dillon continues is decline, Evans might be needed again.

 

[spacecrime]

He was doing great up until that injury.

he was given his chance to shine when our RBs were out.

And if the team felt that way he would have been cut the next day or be thrown on the bench for the rest of the year. Neither was the case.

Actually, he played in the next game but was basically benched the rest of the year except for three games with 13, 8, and 9 carries when every one else was hurt and there was no one else to go to.

Are you absolutely kidding me? Have you been under a rock since 2003?

Fact? More like ignorance!

Life is so easy when you can ignore facts. All this Pass talk about how well he has been doing. Let's look at Pass since 2003. His real stats.

Between 2003 and 2005 here is his game log:

# games # of carries
21.........DNP
10.........0 carries
5..........1 carries
5..........1 carries
1..........3 carries
5..........4 carries
7..........5 or more carries per game

Returns:
2003...11...23 AVG...36 LNG
2004....6...19 AVG...24 LNG
2005....2...15 AVG...21 LNG


And I can see why you chose those years. Look at the rest of his career:

# games # of carries
43.........DNP
4..........0 carries
2..........1 carries
1..........2 carries
1..........3 carries
1..........4 carries
1..........5 or more carries per game


His career stats (107 possible games (reg & playoff) over six years):

9 starts
63 DNPs
21 games with 1 carry or less.

505 yards on 122 carries (4.1 AVG)





.

 

[mgteich]

Pass has made the team as a special teamer (sometimes backup STer, and as an emergency backup).

Fullbacks and #4 running backs do not run the ball much. I think Sam Gash one made the probowl as a fullback with zero carries. Pass is a decent receiver out of the backfield. As always, Pass is in the #50-#55 player range, always on the bubble. Also, unless there are more than one injury in the special teams or at RB, it doesn't matter much whether he makes the team or not.

I expect that when we start Game Two, Pass will be on the 53 man roster.

Actually, he played in the next game but was basically benched the rest of the year except for three games with 13, 8, and 9 carries when every one else was hurt and there was no one else to go to.




Life is so easy when you can ignore facts. All this Pass talk about how well he has been doing. Let's look at Pass since 2003. His real stats.

Between 2003 and 2005 here is his game log:

# games # of carries
21.........DNP
10.........0 carries
5..........1 carries
5..........1 carries
1..........3 carries
5..........4 carries
7..........5 or more carries per game

Returns:
2003...11...23 AVG...36 LNG
2004....6...19 AVG...24 LNG
2005....2...15 AVG...21 LNG


And I can see why you chose those years. Look at the rest of his career:

# games # of carries
43.........DNP
4..........0 carries
2..........1 carries
1..........2 carries
1..........3 carries
1..........4 carries
1..........5 or more carries per game


His career stats (107 possible games (reg & playoff) over six years):

9 starts
63 DNPs
21 games with 1 carry or less.

505 yards on 122 carries (4.1 AVG)





.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Honestly I don't care about the hamstring play. One bad play does not make a player's career. But on the whole I think that Pass is a mediocre player as a RB/FB. The only reason he has stuck around is versatility and the ability to play ST. I think if Mills sticks he knocks out Pass from the 53 because Mills will be a LOT better pass catcher from the backfield then Pass.

The top 4 would then be Dillon, Faulk, Maroney, Mills. Mills will play the versatile split back or H back role depending on how you look at it. The only concern is will Mills make the team. If the coaching staff believes that he belongs I think that spells the end for Pass who is a very limited player. We've seen the best of Patrick Pass and quite frankly I have not been impressed.

 

[pats1]

Actually, he played in the next game but was basically benched the rest of the year except for three games with 13, 8, and 9 carries when every one else was hurt and there was no one else to go to.

Life is so easy when you can ignore facts. All this Pass talk about how well he has been doing. Let's look at Pass since 2003. His real stats.

Between 2003 and 2005 here is his game log:

# games # of carries
21.........DNP
10.........0 carries
5..........1 carries
5..........1 carries
1..........3 carries
5..........4 carries
7..........5 or more carries per game

Returns:
2003...11...23 AVG...36 LNG
2004....6...19 AVG...24 LNG
2005....2...15 AVG...21 LNG

Where in the world did you get those numbers? Like mgteich just said, the running game is only one facet of Pass.

And why did you choose 2003-2005, not 2004-2005? What can't you understand about me saying "SINCE 2003?" SINCE the season where he started to turn the corner?

You can call the games where he doesn't record stats DNPs, but that would be neglecting his contributions both blocking and on special teams which were not only prominent in the years before his real involvement in the offense, but which also continued through this past season.

In 2004, he had only 5 games where no stats were recorded or the log acutally lists him as DNP. In 2005, he had 7 of those such occurces, with 5 coming as a result of his injury.

Before 2004, he had 45 DNPs/no stats recorded.

The diminishing return stats prove two things:

1) The Patriots, as we already know, had to rely much more on Faulk and Pass prior to the coming of Bethel/Davis/Dwight/Hobbs in kick returns.

2) Pass has, which any Patriot fan has noticed, had his roles diminish as an actual returner because his role in the offense has increased.

77% of his total carrer carries and catches (his involvement in the offense) have come in 2004 and 2005.

And I can see why you chose those years. Look at the rest of his career:

# games # of carries
43.........DNP
4..........0 carries
2..........1 carries
1..........2 carries
1..........3 carries
1..........4 carries
1..........5 or more carries per game


His career stats (107 possible games (reg & playoff) over six years):

9 starts
63 DNPs
21 games with 1 carry or less.

505 yards on 122 carries (4.1 AVG)

Why did I only choose those years? Did you not claim Pass had not improved since his release/re-sign in 2003? Prior stats would only be relevant for comparison purposes. In other words - you're making my point! The majority of those DNPs (45) came before 2004. 5 others came from his injury this past season.

I know I'll get bashed for this one again, but Brady had 15 DNPs in 2000 (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187741/gamelogs/2000).

As well all know very well, things have changed since then.

Just because Pass didn't get much playing time or didn't do much in the offense before 2004 doesn't mean he's an incapable player. He's proven himself since then.