4PM and No Asante Deal!

[DaBruinz]

I completely disagree with this statement.

Sorry Andy. You can disagree all you want, but I've watched Vasher play and he is much better than Asante.

 

[DaBruinz]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong here.
This deadline passing doesnt mean he cannot resign long term, but if he did the Pats would lose the right to use the franchise tag for the length of that deal.
IIRC, there is also a way around that, by signing a one year deal and then extending it later, but I could be wrong about that.

The rules changed with the new CBA. You no longer lose the franchise tag. Also, as of the deadline, Asante can now only sign a 1 year deal with the Patriots. He could still, theoretically, sign with another team, but that team would have to give up players or picks. Asante can not sign a long term deal with the Patriots until after their season is over.

 

[DaBruinz]

I dont agree with the one year wonder characterization, but even if it were true, who really cares? He is what he has grown into. Would you pay more for a guy who was better earlier in his career but is now behind what samuel has grown into? You are paying for his future not his past.

Yep. He is what he's grown into. A guy who is a mediocre tackler and gets burn as often as he does make a play. He's a guy who teams were NOT afraid of and who teams continued to throw at even into the play-offs.

Samuel doesn't strike fear into teams the way Sanders did. Or the way Haynes did.

I'm not sure why you feel he has a chip on his shoulder. He believes he is so good that he should be paid a certain amount of money, and its more than the Patriots are offering. That isn't a chip on his shoulder, that is a difference of opinion.
He is taking what action is available to him in a case like this.
He was franchised. He tried to negotiate a long term deal.
Now he must play under the tag or refuse to.
That is the system.
Would you feel that anyone who feels they are underpaid (and there are millions of Americans who do) has a chip on their shoulder? Even if they are correct that they are underpaid? Even if they are wrong they are underpaid, and they search for a new job what is wrong with that?
People change jobs every day. People feel eunderappreciated by their employers every day. You seem to be tying a negative character trait to anyone who doesnt shut up, accept whatever they are offered, and say thank you. That isn't what America was built on.

I have no clue about what the organization did for him, or he did for them, but it appears they have both held up their end of the bargain.
He showed up. He got his paychecks. He did his job. He was trained and coached.
What exactly did the Patriots do for him over and above what an employer is supposed to do?

If your employer had a system where after 4 years of employment you either agreed to a new pay scale or were paid the average of the top 10% of people in your position in your field, and told you they would
1) Negotiate a deal with you
2) Pay you that average of the 10% for a year
3) You could stop showing up for work nad not get paid
and you didn't agree that what they were offering long term was fair, and didn't want to waste a year waiting to decide your long term future, what do you do?
Would I be allowed to criticize you and characterize you as a jerk with a chip on your shoulder if I didn't like our decision?

I think we just get too carried away here with assigning value systems to people we know nothing about because we are upset about how their needs fit into the needs of the team we root for.

If Asante was the chef at your favorite restaurant and going through a contract dispute like this, would you judge his morals based on whether he wanted to accept what they offered and shut up, or whether he would go to another restaurant that paid him more?

Chefs at my favorite resteraunt don't average 2.75 million a year (which is what I believe the league average is - 32 teams - $112 million per team on the cap - 1300 players or so). So, Andy, your analogy doesn't really apply.

We're talking about a guy who has issues tackling. A guy who teams aren't scared by and who they continued to thorw at throughout the play-offs. Sorry, but Samuel isn't that good a player. He's not worth more than Richard Seymour. He's not worth more than Ty Warren for that matter. Samuel certainly hasn't shown himself to be a leader in the defense the way I'd expect from a TOP corner.

So, convince me, Andy. Convince me that Samuel is worth $30 million over the next 3 years.

 

[shakadave]

***ante $amuel

He'll wind up getting $30 million over three years - its just a question of how and when it comes (barring injury and outright crappy play of course).

I think the only way ***ante $amuel gets $30m in 3 years is if we keep franchising him. (8 this year, 10 next, 12 next)

I think he's overpaid this season if he plays. (Being about the highest paid on the Patriots isn't good enough for him?) If we franchise him a 2nd year, as has been suggested from time to time, we'd be offering nearly $10m for the 2008 season, bringing it to over $17m this year + next. He's not worth that much! I can live with the 8m this season, but not the 10m next.

P.S. Apparently our strategy is, after the 2007 season, ***ante's value can only go down from where it is (in his mind) right now. We'll see....

P.S.S. Why is it that WE get all the news-making holdouts? IIRC, Seymour's holdout in '05 was the biggest holdout news in the whole NFL that summer. Ditto Branch's in 2006! Now this year, I think ***ante is the only franchised player (maybe Briggs also) who neither did a long-term deal nor signed the 1-year tender as of today. We get all the gems!

 

[JoeSixPat]

Re: no deal per riess

I want a team that understands winning the Super Bowl is a crap shoot, but staying in contention to win the Super Bowl year after year is a product of staying within a system and maintaining excellence. For all the crying about the team not winning the Super Bowl last season, they were a bout of the flu and an injury to Maroney away from doing just that. Anyone who thinks that having Branch on the team would have magically dispelled all the flu virus from the Patriots' lungs of turned Maroney into the man of steel is fooling themselves, to say the least.

I've got no issues with Samuel, or any other player, trying to cash in. On the other hand, if they are only about the money and feel a need to get every nickel possible so strongly that they can't accept the concept of a real, but fair, "hometown discount" on the team to keep their teammates around, they can go pound sand. And that goes for Samuel, Seymour, Warren, Brady or any other player on the squad.

Branch plays on offense - it was the defense had the flu, and for all the implosion of the defense in the 2nd half, ONE more first down would have won the game.

There is no question that BB felt the team was thin at WR last season - I stand firm that I'd prefer to have had Branch played out his contract, win another SB Ring, and allow him to go into free agency with "nothing" for us to show for it except another paltry Championship

I similarly maintain that it is preferable to have Samuel play this season for us rather than hold out until the playoffs (doubtful BB would activate him as of game 10).

If people believe it is preferable NOT to have Samuel play for us and to hold out til the playoffs for this season and potentially NEXT they will certainly not agree with me - but I'd prefer to have us go into this season with all pistons firing... going in thin at CB is NOT preferable to me.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: no deal per riess

All of you should ask yourself a simple question - what do you want? Another SB Ring? Or a disgruntled player who refuses to pay held hostagefor a ransom (two first round picks) that few if any teams are willing to pay?

I want a player who realizes that he's playing a GAME at a high professional level, but realizes he's just a cog in the machine. Asante isn't a game breaker. He's not a guy that teams game plan for. No team in the play-offs said, "We're not going throw to the right side of the field." They went right at him.

If you want to consider it being "held hostage" when a team offers you a 5 or 6 year deal that averages 6 million a year with $13 million up front, then, please, hold me hostage. I'd volunteer in a heart beat.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Re: ***ante $amuel

I think the only way ***ante $amuel gets $30m in 3 years is if we keep franchising him. (8 this year, 10 next, 12 next)

I think he's overpaid this season if he plays. (Being about the highest paid on the Patriots isn't good enough for him?) If we franchise him a 2nd year, as has been suggested from time to time, we'd be offering nearly $10m for the 2008 season, bringing it to over $17m this year + next. He's not worth that much! I can live with the 8m this season, but not the 10m next.

Do the math - if he plays for the nearly $8 million this year and gets what will easilly be a $22 million plus signing bonus in free agency next year, he's got his $30 million - though he's risking injury this year.

No way was the team going to ante up $30 million this year. I think Asante knew that the best he could do this year was $20 million in a bonus, and assuming his agent can forge an agreement not to franchise him next season, he should be happy to play for the franchise amount this year, with the promise of a better bonus payday next season.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: ***ante $amuel

I think the only way ***ante $amuel gets $30m in 3 years is if we keep franchising him. (8 this year, 10 next, 12 next)

I think he's overpaid this season if he plays. (Being about the highest paid on the Patriots isn't good enough for him?) If we franchise him a 2nd year, as has been suggested from time to time, we'd be offering nearly $10m for the 2008 season, bringing it to over $17m this year + next. He's not worth that much! I can live with the 8m this season, but not the 10m next.

P.S. Apparently our strategy is, after the 2007 season, ***ante's value can only go down from where it is (in his mind) right now. We'll see....

Just a point of information, if the Patriots were to Franchise Samuel a 3rd time, he'd be paid at the HIGHEST Franchise level, which is typicall QB. And that is probably going to be around 15-16 million in 2009. So, Asante would actually be looking at 32-33 million if the Pats were to Franchise him a 3rd time (7.79, 9.348, and 15-16)

 

[JoeSixPat]

Re: no deal per riess

Asante isn't a game breaker. He's not a guy that teams game plan for.

Everyone agrees he's a VERY good CB for our system.

Branch wasn't a game breaker either - but given our WR woes last season, I'd have to think he would have been good for one additional first down in the Colts game at the very least - hence a win, hence a SB ring.

If someone gives me the choice between an extra first round pick and a SB Ring, I'm going with the Championship every time.

It makes no logical sense to willingly go into next season without Samuel if a simple compromise is possible.

But again, if Samuel wants to play hardball and hold out until game 10, the Patriots have no choice but to take the hardest line possible so as to send a message to other players - and franchise him again next season, refusing to trade him as well.

Just a point of information, if the Patriots were to Franchise Samuel a 3rd time, he'd be paid at the HIGHEST Franchise level, which is typicall QB. And that is probably going to be around 15-16 million in 2009. So, Asante would actually be looking at 32-33 million if the Pats were to Franchise him a 3rd time (7.79, 9.348, and 15-16)

I don't think there's a person out there who thinks that would ever happen.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: ***ante $amuel

Do the math - if he plays for the nearly $8 million this year and gets what will easilly be a $22 million plus signing bonus in free agency next year, he's got his $30 million - though he's risking injury this year.

No way was the team going to ante up $30 million this year. I think Asante knew that the best he could do this year was $20 million in a bonus, and assuming his agent can forge an agreement not to franchise him next season, he should be happy to play for the franchise amount this year, with the promise of a better bonus payday next season.

JSP -
Asante will ONLY get $22 million as a signing bonus next year IF he has a successful year this year. If he holds out all through training camp, I don't see that happening. There have been very few players who have held out through the entirety of training camp and NOT gotten hurt early.

This $22 million you keep talking is something that I just don't see Samuel getting. He's NOT that good a player. If he was, then someone would have ponied up an offer to the Patriots similar to what they did with Tebucky Jones. That hasn't happened.

I believe that Samuel was posturing a LOT when he claimed he'd gotten offers. In fact, I think all he got was heresay and that no one stepped up and offered a contract. If they had, he'd have signed it. And it would have leaked, as it always does.

I don't believe that many people in the league think that Asante is a Top 10 corner. I believe that many people in the league think Samuel is an above average corner who has the benefit of a trememdous D-line and a good LB corps. And its why I don't believe we've heard about anyone approaching the Pats regarding trading for him.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: no deal per riess

Everyone agrees he's a VERY good CB for our system.

And that is why no team offered him an actual contract to sign. Because they are leary of whether or not he could potentially play outside the Pats system.

Also, while Asante is a good CB for the Pats, he's hardly infallible. As I've said, even Earthwind Moreland could have had at least 5 ints last year thanks to the Pats D-line.

Branch wasn't a game breaker either - but given our WR woes last season, I'd have to think he would have been good for one additional first down in the Colts game at the very least - hence a win, hence a SB ring.

Considering the drops that Branch had against Denver, I think you are presuming a LOT. There is no guarantee the Pats would have even made it to play the Colts had Branch been on this team. You are assuming WAY too much there.

If someone gives me the choice between an extra first round pick and a SB Ring, I'm going with the Championship every time.

It makes no logical sense to willingly go into next season without Samuel if a simple compromise is possible.

If such a simple compromise was possible, don't you think it would have already happened? You seem to have fallen for the Nice guy routine that Asante's

But again, if Samuel wants to play hardball and hold out until game 10, the Patriots have no choice but to take the hardest line possible so as to send a message to other players - and franchise him again next season, refusing to trade him as well.

Yes, if everyone had their druther's Asante would be playing in a Pats uniform under a long term contract. Clearly, that's not going to happen because Asante clearly is a fool who has no concept of what his value REALLY is.

I don't think there's a person out there who thinks that would ever happen.

JSP, go back and look in the thread. That was in direct response to someone suggesting just that. Franchise Asante for 3 years. And its probably where Asante is getting the ABSURD 3 year - $30 million number from.

 

[mgteich]

If Samuel gives 110%, I really have no problem paying him the franchise rate for the next two years. I just don't believe that he'll play up to his salary.

If he plays well this year, and we trade him, he will indeed receive the absurd $30M over the next three years.

 

[Warren94]

as dabruinz has said samuel misses way too many tackles. give me merriweather at corner. Harrison, hobbs, sanders in the secondary. He is far from a shutdown corner.

 

[Triumph]

If Samuel gives 110%, I really have no problem paying him the franchise rate for the next two years. I just don't believe that he'll play up to his salary.

If he plays well this year, and we trade him, he will indeed receive the absurd $30M over the next three years.

Thats the whole paradox.

If Samuel doesnt play up to his potential after signing the Tag, he damages his value in a new contract. Teams opinion will be lower of him after a so - so season.

If Samuel gives 110% after signing the Tag. He runs the risk of serious injury. Damaged goods who could never see the deal he desires offered again. His value right now is the highest IMO.

He is between a rock and a hard place. Thats why IMO, he holds out and gets traded ala D Branch.

 

[rabthepat]

O well...thank God we resigned Troy "Superman" Brown. Without Troy I'd be worried about potentially losing Asante. :singing: :singing: :singing:

 

[mesoslo]

Considering the drops that Branch had against Denver, I think you are presuming a LOT. There is no guarantee the Pats would have even made it to play the Colts had Branch been on this team. You are assuming WAY too much there.

you have to remember that the chargers did not give us a very good time.
Our WR on that day had enough gas to take on the chargers, but they did not have enough gas to take on the colts.

I dont think having Branch is needed for a sb ring. If BB had just paid some WR from FA or something that was able to help the WR corp, maybe another superbowl win. BB had the cap space he just didnt spend it, why? Because he cant see the future.

Every one is calling us a favourite now, why? Because of our new WR weapons. Sure there are new additions to the defense, but with BB coaching it doesnt matter about the individual players it is the team's bend but dont breake defense.

During that last drive in the colts game if Brady had the weapons he did he would have marched on the colts to a superbowl win.


BB sees it cheaper to not sign asante yet and use the season as a litmus test to see if the patriots are ready when asked to be put into situations like in last year playoff matchup with the colts, especially that final drive, and the interception.

moss + stallworth +welker + mautirity of the young WR cubs is cheaper than signing Asante right now.

 

[Pats726]

If Samuel gives 110%, I really have no problem paying him the franchise rate for the next two years. I just don't believe that he'll play up to his salary.

If he plays well this year, and we trade him, he will indeed receive the absurd $30M over the next three years.

I agree...I really DO NOT think he'll play up to that..it IS a good test to see where he is. He wants the big bucks, but I assure you if another teams gives him that money..he will be overpaid to the max. I know he wants his money NOW..but the more I see that as a demand, the more the red flag goes up..and how he's more a flash in the pan..By making absurd demands, he is showing less confidence in himself going into the future than he should. I want my money NOW!! What greed.. and I think because he knows it was an annomalie. He sits out and he'll become irrelevent..because NO player will take this team a hostage. The Patriots will find other ways to have strong DB play. If he thinks that he's TOO good for 7 million..he may end up with egg on his face..on the bench. This is NOT baseball where a player can come and go and really have little effect on the team..football is a team sport. And he shows up in Game 10 and he may not be playing all that much until he works his way in with the other DBs. It's a team and I think he'd be making a BIG mistake if he takes that path...but his tatoo says it MOST what he's about.

 

[dhamz]

The 30m over 3 years is not nearly as ridiculous as people are trying to make it out to be. He'll most likely get very close to it. If he plays the 2007 season under the tag (almost 8m) and then signs the offer the Pats made (with 13m in signing bonus) he would have 21 million over 2 years plus his salary for year 2 and 3 likely putting him in the 25m range for 3 years. And that is on the conservative side. As an unrestricted free agent he would likely top 13m in bonus.

 

[37Harrison]

Isn't a signing bonus given all at once? Correct me if I am wrong but this is what I figure.

13 million singing bonus (guaranteed)
6 mil/yr. average

13 mil + (6 mil/yr * 3 yrs) = 31 million

Now I have no idea about how the contract is structured (probably back loaded) but what makes him think that in the prime of his career he won't earn the entire contract? Maybe if they reduced his yearly salary and rolled that into his signing bonus to make it 16 instead of 13 million, maybe he would've signed?

He is wanting this money guaranteed. Well Asante, if you are as good as you showed last year then you will guarantee that money will be paid to you. Just my .02

 

[Triumph]

Sorry Andy. You can disagree all you want, but I've watched Vasher play and he is much better than Asante.

You also said Eric Warfield was a good player. How did that one turn out Skippy?