4PM and No Asante Deal!

[DaBruinz]

Re: no deal per riess

Did you think the same about Branch last year, Samuel is a better player than Branch at a more important position.

Did I think what about Branch last year? That he didn't receive an offer? You really should be more clear regarding your questions.

1st off, the situations are extremely different. One was the case of a player under contract "shooting" his way out of town because he felt that he deserved to be treated better than Tom Brady or Richard Seymour. The other is a case of a player thinking that his value is significantly greater than what it really is.

Branch wasn't a free agent. He proved himself to be a liar and a two-faced scum-bag who reneged on his deal. What I believe is that, last year, Branch was tampered with by Mangini and that Tags gave the Jets a pardon on it. I believe that Branch and his agent had talks with the Jets PRIOR to Branch receiving permission to talk to other teams about a trade.

Samuel is a Franchise free agent. As such, he has the right to talk to any team. However, talking to a team doesn't constitute having a contract offer in hand. And the initial talk is usually to see if the approaching team and the free agent are in the same ballpark. Many times, this news gets leaked. We've not hear a PEEP this year. Also, before a team and a player start talking hard facts of a contract, the team approached the Franchising team about compensation OTHER than the 2 1st round picks. As was done by Atlanta and the Jets with John Abraham, the Pats and Saints regarding Tebucky Jones and others. Why? Because there is no sense in talking contract if the approaching team and franchising team aren't able to come to an agreement.

 

[PatsFan37]

Re: no deal per riess

Did you think the same about Branch last year, Samuel is a better player than Branch at a more important position.

Not so fast. Branch has far more physical talent than Samuel and has been successful longer. WR's go one-on-one against CBs and Branch sliced and diced the Eagles defensive backfield, arguably the league's best, in the biggest game. Samuel intercepted and otherwise stifled Manning-to-Harrison, arguably the league's best combo. Samuel and Branch are comparable, but Branch has been better year-to-year.

I would agree on one point, a top cornerback is more valuable if he single-handedly limits a top WR who would otherwise draw double-coverage.

Let's see Samuel do that for more than one year before we say Samuel is better than Branch.

To further make the point, this team has done worse without Branch than without Samuel and yes, they would have franchised Branch.

 

[makoute]

Re: no deal per riess

Did I think what about Branch last year? That he didn't receive an offer? You really should be more clear regarding your questions.

1st off, the situations are extremely different. One was the case of a player under contract "shooting" his way out of town because he felt that he deserved to be treated better than Tom Brady or Richard Seymour. The other is a case of a player thinking that his value is significantly greater than what it really is.

Branch wasn't a free agent. He proved himself to be a liar and a two-faced scum-bag who reneged on his deal. What I believe is that, last year, Branch was tampered with by Mangini and that Tags gave the Jets a pardon on it. I believe that Branch and his agent had talks with the Jets PRIOR to Branch receiving permission to talk to other teams about a trade.

Samuel is a Franchise free agent. As such, he has the right to talk to any team. However, talking to a team doesn't constitute having a contract offer in hand. And the initial talk is usually to see if the approaching team and the free agent are in the same ballpark. Many times, this news gets leaked. We've not hear a PEEP this year. Also, before a team and a player start talking hard facts of a contract, the team approached the Franchising team about compensation OTHER than the 2 1st round picks. As was done by Atlanta and the Jets with John Abraham, the Pats and Saints regarding Tebucky Jones and others. Why? Because there is no sense in talking contract if the approaching team and franchising team aren't able to come to an agreement.

I quoted your statement from a previous thread when I asked the question.

 

[makoute]

Re: no deal per riess

Not so fast. Branch has far more physical talent than Samuel and has been successful longer. WR's go one-on-one against CBs and Branch sliced and diced the Eagles defensive backfield, arguably the league's best, in the biggest game. Samuel intercepted and otherwise stifled Manning-to-Harrison, arguably the league's best combo. Samuel and Branch are comparable, but Branch has been better year-to-year.

I would agree on one point, a top cornerback is more valuable if he single-handedly limits a top WR who would otherwise draw double-coverage.

Let's see Samuel do that for more than one year before we say Samuel is better than Branch.

To further make the point, this team has done worse without Branch than without Samuel and yes, they would have franchised Branch.

I don't think that's the case at all, Branch had one very good season here, and a few ok seasons, the guy never had a 1000 year season, except for the last year when he came close missing it by 2 yards. Most people would say Samuel is a top 15 corner, no one would say that about Branch. Yet Branch got exactly what he wanted, and someone gave up a first rounder for him.

 

[Pats726]

I would say this about Samuel and Branch...neither at this time is tops at their respective positions. the discussions on Branch went on and on last year and the bottom line is he is NOT in the top ten or fifteen...that does NOT make him a bad player, in fact he would have been a solid receiver had he stayed. he is consistent and has showed that over the years, but has not had an outstanding season...one that jumps out as a top elite receiver. There is also a durability question with him as well. Samuel on the other hand, has not been consistent at all. He's been OK at times, injured at others, dreadful at other times and has only had a half a season at top notch play. I hardly would call him a top tired corner looking at his career. The one thing he has over Branch is that he's had a good last season and if he can play at that same level, he COULD BE in the elite class. That possiblity is there more so than with Branch. But I would consider neither really elite at this point. How the Patriots value their play is something different though, but what I see is 2nd level players wishing to be paid like they are elite..and neither of them is...THAT is more the problem.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Re: no deal per riess

I'd have preferred to see Branch honor his contract as well. However, we don't know how things would have played out had he been on this team. The Pats could have won everything. Or Branch could have blown his ACL in the 1st game and the Pats could have ended up losing the division. You can't change 1 thing and not expect EVERYTHING else to change. There are just too many (trillions) of variables that change.

Seems like you're over-reaching just a bit in an effort to suggest that an agreement whereby Branch played for the Patriots last year hurts us rather than helps us.

So are we hurt by having Brady as QB given the fact that he too might be injured? Perhaps best to trade him now and get some draft picks rather than take the risk that he might not be available to play this season.

Similarly, I'd prefer to have Samuel play this season than not play. I might be alone in that, but now that we're past the signing deadline, it does seem to me that an agreement that gets Samuel into camp is possible, even if others deny the possibility or don't want Samuel to play (seeing as he too could get injured!)

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Re: no deal per riess

There is nothing on Reiss blog beyond early this AM.

OK I see it's posted in an article on the main Globe sports site. Well, I knew he wanted more than Adalius got 'cause he mentioned it once, but $30M in the first 3 is insanity. He's overpaid at $7.79M for one year. They should have traded him in April and drafted a corner. Probably still should just trade him if he won't come in for camp. Belioli need to get someone in the FO who can read these guys a little better than they appear to. When you're that far apart going through the motions as if there is some reason to is just a colossal waste of time. It doesn't matter if you want them to stay - if they are that delusional about finances you need to quit kidding yourselves and just move on.

This is a rather bold statement....

I have found myself thinking the same thing, but I can only assume the FO is exhausting all options before moving on with a player that they have invested time and draft picks in. I think the franchise tag is a bad idea in general, but perhaps is the only way to assure that bad teams don't lose their best players. I don't blame Samuels for wanting to cash in, it is his life, after all, but I am more than a little impatient to make sure we have a good replacement.

The Pats seem pretty far apart when negotiating with many of their players, and don't always seem to replace those players soon enough, looking from the outside fan viewpoint. But then they always fall back on the 'value' signing when they find replacements, even if taking longer than we fans hope to replace players that are lost to free agency or refuse to honor their contracts. Or putting players in a position which we feel as fans that they aren't completely qualified for, and 'coaching them up'.

I think it may be over simplifying the situation to say that they need to stick somebody else in the front office that can better judge the 'greed' level or level of delusion of the player about their real, objective value within the Pat's system versus what the player thinks they can squeeze out of the Redskins, for instance.

If the Samuels thing blows up in their face than perhaps it is time for a change in philosophy about how long to try to negotiate a value based contract with a player who is seeing stars when he looks in the mirror and bags of cash when he talks to his agent. But I think that the frustration we feel when the FO 'goes through the motions' on some of these players is just part of the process when the Pats try to keep their budding young 'stars' from fleeing the nest.

I hope at the end of this season we are not talking about how the Pats could have gone to the big game if only they had Samuels back in the flock. I hope a Samuels replacement is waiting in the wings right now. I guess that if they can coach up one fourth round pick, maybe they can coach up another day two pick.

Not sure to what extent I agree or disagree with your assertions, but it seems a little more thought provoking than arguing about how many good games Samuels strung together during the second part of one season; at any rate.

 

[Mack Herron]

Asasnte's fading future

http://www.sunjournal.com/story/221...in_trouble_with_franchise_player_holding_out/


If he does not sign the tender and play this year, he is enjoying his last 15 mninutes of fame. Adios dude.

 

[Triumph]

Hey Skippy, stick around and follow along. It takes TIME to learn the Pats defense. Some players can do it. Others can't. Warfield clearly couldn't. He was a low risk, medium reward type of signing. He didn't pan out. So what. You going to say that you knew that Warfield wouldn't work out? Hell, have you ever put an opinion out there?

I will say this, though. I am human. I've been wrong about things. Many things. I own up to them when that is the case. As I owned up on Dillon. And I owned up on Beisel.

Let me know when you actually put your opinion out there and admit it is wrong when you are proven so.

Hey Jackass

I did post that Warfield sucked and that his nickname was the "Torch." You opened your big piehole and said he was a good player. WRONG

I knew he wouldnt help this team. Unlike you, I've watched Warfield play since being drafted. My buddies are Chief fans. I live in KC. As usaual, you were talking out your backside.

As far as I'm concerned your player evaluations and a dollar buy a coke. Take them and shove them you know where.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Re: Asasnte's fading future

http://www.sunjournal.com/story/221...in_trouble_with_franchise_player_holding_out/


If he does not sign the tender and play this year, he is enjoying his last 15 mninutes of fame. Adios dude.

Love the Sun Journal article, primarily because the author has the wisdom to agree with die-hard Pats fans on this one.

This is not to say he is right.

But as I've said, even if he isn't, there's always a dark cloud. This year it's Samuel.

The author did say something I am not too sure of -- he claims that if Samuel sits out 10 games he becomes a free agent. I thought if he sits 10, that's just the max he can sit before it counts as not playing this year, and that if he plays, it would be for us.

In fact I thought I was positive of this.

Somebody who really knows this stuff like the back of his hand... please confirm. I think the press just goofed (once again,) but I'd hate to be trying to figure this stuff out, and have false assumptions all along.

PFnV

 

[Pats726]

Re: Asasnte's fading future

Love the Sun Journal article, primarily because the author has the wisdom to agree with die-hard Pats fans on this one.

This is not to say he is right.

But as I've said, even if he isn't, there's always a dark cloud. This year it's Samuel.

The author did say something I am not too sure of -- he claims that if Samuel sits out 10 games he becomes a free agent. I thought if he sits 10, that's just the max he can sit before it counts as not playing this year, and that if he plays, it would be for us.

In fact I thought I was positive of this.

Somebody who really knows this stuff like the back of his hand... please confirm. I think the press just goofed (once again,) but I'd hate to be trying to figure this stuff out, and have false assumptions all along.

PFnV

He loses the counting of this as an accrued year...still the Patriots..no FA..I think MANy would sit out if that were possible..no GA for AS.

 

[patriot lifer]

Re: Asasnte's fading future

He loses the counting of this as an accrued year...still the Patriots..no FA..I think MANy would sit out if that were possible..no GA for AS.

not to mention he wouldn't get any money if he never signs and plays any games