4PM and No Asante Deal!

[PaulNEPats]

I doubt Asante's going to hold out until week 10 anyways. If he wants his mega deal next year, he'll need another very good year like this past season. Kind've hard to do that when you wait 10 weeks into the season to go up against live competition.

I also think trading him is a bad idea. It worked out well with Branch, but you can't expect that everytime. And you set a bad precedent everytime a player doesn't negotiate in good faith.

 

[makoute]

Very true...yuk!! Always one in the bunch who things "he's better"....
Do people remember the Seymour hold out in camp and HOW that was dealt with on BOTH sides?? class and to the point and with a win-win situation in mind.
The problem is in many ways with those LESS talented..they want the big bucks even though they are 2nd tier. Branch..Samuel...BOTH in teh same boat. BOTH will get overpaid..but NOT by the Patriots plain and simple. I can't even complain about Givens or Graham leaving for more..NOT the same!

Not the same at all, Seymour was under contract, and Graham and Givens were not franchised.

 

[Pats726]

Not the same at all, Seymour was under contract, and Graham and Givens were not franchised.

Apparenrly you missed my point entirely...but that is OK many read quick and miss points......the point is NOT about the details of the situation...for if you were honest, one could compare Seymour and Branch....who BOTH were under contract and had opposite ways of negotiationg/not negotiating.
This was about styles my friend...the WAY one negotiates. Even with Givens and Graham in their leaving, it was done more with class. Branch's style WHILE UNDER contract was pitiful and led to where he wished to go...out the door. Seymour's was NOT like that at all...totally opposite. Samuel's started out more like Branch's and then quieted..but might stay that way if he doesn't show up. The styles of negotiation are all the same...whether free agent, franchised or under contract...the details are different, but the style is not. Agents that wish to win...like Chayut miss the boat entirely..as it's getting to a win-win situation. Branch won, but may have lost in the larger picture. We'll see how Shavers does with Samuel.

 

[Spirit of '76]

Based on a $7.79m franchise tender offer, that comes to $490,000 per game!

It's hard to Imagine that Assante will leave $4.9 million on the table to hold out for 10 weeks.

He only made $750K last year, he will make more than that by just playing in 2 games this season.

He's either an idiot or a fool for listening to the WRONG people. But does any of this really surprise us based on his tatoo...'Get Paid'.

We've got Gay, James, & Scott, all previous starters, ready to replace his 'misplaced priorities' on the field.

My prediction......Assante will hold out at the beginning of camp but will show up for week #1 because he wants to 'Get Paid' and if the Patriots do make a run at a 4th Championship, someone else would be more than happy to overpay him next year (freeing up $7.79m in Cap space for us).

Is that a win-win???

 

[Pat_Nasty]

Very true...yuk!! Always one in the bunch who things "he's better"....
Do people remember the Seymour hold out in camp and HOW that was dealt with on BOTH sides?? class and to the point and with a win-win situation in mind.
The problem is in many ways with those LESS talented..they want the big bucks even though they are 2nd tier. Branch..Samuel...BOTH in teh same boat. BOTH will get overpaid..but NOT by the Patriots plain and simple. I can't even complain about Givens or Graham leaving for more..NOT the same!

Seymour's holdout was just an easier situation all around. Seymour was absolutely essential to the Pats' defense, he and his agents knew it, BB obviously agreed, and the only question was how much was it going to take to get Seymour signed long term. The Pats gave Seymour a good-faith bonus to end his hold-out, and then opened their checkbooks for him.

Seymour didn't need to get upset and act "unclassy" because his high value to the franchise was such an easy call.

Asante's situation is a tad more difficult. He is not, and will never be, as essential to the team as Seymour... but he is a player who's made great strides in his NFL career and has learned and fit himself into the system as well as any Pats player in recent memory. With the exception of a stretch of games in which the entire Pats' D was in turmoil, he's looked better each season.

That said, his future value isn't as clear, so the Pats will be hesitant to commit to the kind of guaranteed money they'd pay if they knew he was going to keep getting better. On the other hand, Asante would be crazy to accept a lesser long-term contract if he thinks he will end up worth top CB dollar... which he obviously thinks he will.

This is why they couldn't reach a compromise. The Pats didn't want to risk overpaying a guy who underachieves his contract, and Samuel didn't want to risk signing a contract he thinks he'd outperform. Naturally, this is going to be a more contentious situation than Seymour's.

At this point, I'm almost positive Samuel will show up sometime during camp and play out the season. This is really the only way for him to prove to everyone that he is, beyond all doubt, worth a top contract for a CB. Holding out to week 10 can only reduce his market value.

 

[dhamz]

How do you figure that he's have made 21 million in 2 years? If he had signed the Pats offer, he doesn't get the 7.79 million from the franchise tag. He gets a small salary and his signing bonus. Probably totally 14-15 million. Even then, he'd not get a large raise from that, so it would total out around 17 million for 2 years. And the 3rd year would only be slightly more than that, so maybe 20 million over 3 years.

What I meant is if he plays for the tender this year and then signs the same LT deal (with a 13m signing bonus) with either NE or anyone else next year he is looking at 25 million over 3 years.

 

[dhamz]

Re: no deal per riess

And that is why no team offered him an actual contract to sign. Because they are leary of whether or not he could potentially play outside the Pats system.

His lack of an offer has nothing to do with that.

There isn't a player in the NFL not named Tom Brady or Peyton Manning that could command the 2 #1s in compensation it would take to get another teams franchise player.

 

[Triumph]

Sorry. I said that Warfield could be a good player and that his D-line wasn't exactly stellar there in KC. So, please, make sure you quote me properly if you are going to say anything. Otherwise, do everyone a favor and don't.

BS. If the D line was the problem with Warfields play then why couldnt he stick in NE? Isnt the NE D line any good?

Its got nothing to do with the D line. I said Warfield was a BUM and he is bottom line.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Re: no deal per riess

Also, while Asante is a good CB for the Pats, he's hardly infallible. As I've said, even Earthwind Moreland could have had at least 5 ints last year thanks to the Pats D-line. .

Asante played CB as well as anyone in the league in the 2nd half of the season - and if one can bear watching the Colts game they'd see he had a GREAT game against Harrison.

No one would seriously compare him with Earthwind. Even the Patriots value him enough to tag him.

And that is why no team offered him an actual contract to sign. Because they are leary of whether or not he could potentially play outside the Pats system.

Wouldn't a team have had to give the Patriots TWO first round picks in addition to signing him for a premium? Don't you think that might have been a teeny weeny disincentive that might have been a factor preventing him from getting an offer?

Considering the drops that Branch had against Denver, I think you are presuming a LOT. There is no guarantee the Pats would have even made it to play the Colts had Branch been on this team. You are assuming WAY too much there. .

Wow - so now we're going so far to say that as thin as we were at WR last year, having Branch added to that mix would have made things WORSE?

I'm a homer when it comes to the Pats but all things being equal, I'd have preferred to see Branch honor his contract and play last season to give Brady a much needed additional target.

I'd never suggest that Branch would make the team worse - definately better - I'm not sure how much better but all we needed was ONE more first down against the Colts to go to (and likely win) the SB.

If such a simple compromise was possible, don't you think it would have already happened? You seem to have fallen for the Nice guy routine that Asante's .

I'm not falling for anything - I'm simply saying that the Nice Guy Routine is likely geared towards creating a situation where a no-franchise in 2008 situation is possible. I'm actually pretty cynical that there's a specific motivation for the nice guy routine

And no, up to this point the focus was on a long term contract - NOT a no franchise agreement - so I don't expect that it already would have happened. Asante's agent would be stupid to play that card before attempting to get a long term contract done.

Yes, if everyone had their druther's Asante would be playing in a Pats uniform under a long term contract. Clearly, that's not going to happen because Asante clearly is a fool who has no concept of what his value REALLY is.

That may be the case but he can certainly see the reality that if he holds out til game 10, he's putting the Pats in a situation where they might see the BENEFIT of making an example of him and Franchising him next year too - then he'd be in a similar sitution and if he again holds out, he's left $11 million on the table, and has a questionable resume of limited game time heading into free agency in 2009.

THAT has nothing to do with his talent - its simply the reality of the sitution which, if Asante reads the papers, he can't ignore.

 

[patriot lifer]

the pats could really use a guy that has the ability to turn the ball over every once in a while. remember in 2005 when they rarely intercepted the ball. Compare that to 2003 and 2004 when they won superbowls. They may have a hell of a pass rush next year, but lets not underrate his ability to intercept. as of now, he's the only guy (besides Harrison who will likely get hurt) to count on. Hobbs may develop but I'd be a lot more confident going into the season knowing that Samuel will be back there racking up something like 5-6 interceptions in the regular season. not to mention a few more in the playoffs.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Re: ***ante $amuel

I think the only way ***ante $amuel gets $30m in 3 years is if we keep franchising him. (8 this year, 10 next, 12 next)

Again I see no way the team pays him top QB money as per the CBA (which I think would be around $15 million) in year three.

But I suppose, if he doesn't hold out and does get to free agency next year we'll see what he'd get on the open market.

Am I surprised that no team wanted to give up two first round picks this season as well as make him a lucrative offer? Not in the least.

Would I be surprised, given NFL inflation, to see a team offer him a long term contract next year that includes a salary bonus of $22 million or more? No I wouldn't.

And if that happend - even if it was a two tiered/two-year guaranteed bonus - he'll have his $30 million over 3 years.

Since Asante knows there is NO WAY the Patriots would ever give that much money to him guranteed over 3 years, I think he realizes his best case scenario is to quietly forge an agreement whereby he will report for camp, not hold out any games, and not be franchised next year.

The Patriots, for their benefit, get the benefit of having him play for them in top game shape all season.

 

[Pats726]

Seymour's holdout was just an easier situation all around. Seymour was absolutely essential to the Pats' defense, he and his agents knew it, BB obviously agreed, and the only question was how much was it going to take to get Seymour signed long term. The Pats gave Seymour a good-faith bonus to end his hold-out, and then opened their checkbooks for him. Seymour didn't need to get upset and act "unclassy" because his high value to the franchise was such an easy call.

Certainly his value was much higher, no question, but was it not easier with an agent who was not confrontational and knew how to get to a win-win situation?? That WAS a larger factor than maybe you wish to admit That Seymour was reasonable I think also was quite helpful as well. How is Branch's so opposite?? Were the Patriot's willing to give Branch a solid contract? Very much so...giving IN to almost all of the Twig's demands. Do you not think the attitude of his agent and his unwillingness to negotiate..his unreasonableness contributed to NOT getting a deal done?? I think the Patriots valued Branch when they could have just told him to pound sand...as he WAS under contract. They didn't do that and did their best to get a deal done.

Asante's situation is a tad more difficult. He is not, and will never be, as essential to the team as Seymour... but he is a player who's made great strides in his NFL career and has learned and fit himself into the system as well as any Pats player in recent memory. With the exception of a stretch of games in which the entire Pats' D was in turmoil, he's looked better each season. That said, his future value isn't as clear, so the Pats will be hesitant to commit to the kind of guaranteed money they'd pay if they knew he was going to keep getting better. On the other hand, Asante would be crazy to accept a lesser long-term contract if he thinks he will end up worth top CB dollar... which he obviously thinks he will. This is why they couldn't reach a compromise. The Pats didn't want to risk overpaying a guy who underachieves his contract, and Samuel didn't want to risk signing a contract he thinks he'd outperform. Naturally, this is going to be a more contentious situation than Seymour's.

It's also in he and his agent's attitude. Maybe he "looked better" each season, but he was hardly the "top player" he claims to be in teh first half of last season. Don't kid yourself..at the halfway point there was talk of franchising Graham...Samuel? HARDLY one who would be franchised...he was
solid but franchise material? His great last half of the season did that for him.
That does NOT make him one of the best CBs in the league. He will have to SHOW more to earn that. The Pats offered him a LOT of money with the franchise tag, frankly more than I think they should have, but they did believe he was worth that---for one year. In a way to basically see if that was an anomlaie or not. I believe it may be and only time will tell. From what Reiss has said, they offered him a really top deal, and that was rejected. I find it outrageous that a team that is planning to pay a player the average of the 5 best at a position is spit at BY the player. That to me shows he is of little character..all greed...the epitomoe of the priomma donna Me-me-me--- athlete. There are always some on a team and he's the one this year. And yes, it's not the best athlete's at positions but the wannabees like him and Branch they want the big biucks..but are NOT the top guys at all The more that AS demands that top money on so little (half a season) a smaple of great play, the more I think they know they are NOT worth it in the long run.

At this point, I'm almost positive Samuel will show up sometime during camp and play out the season. This is really the only way for him to prove to everyone that he is, beyond all doubt, worth a top contract for a CB. Holding out to week 10 can only reduce his market value.

I do agree...he needs to show up at camp..for if he waits out till Game 10, he will lose market value..and will lose out in the game. What he needs is a solid season..but I think this whole thing may have gone to his head..and he will sit out and rust.

 

[Brady'sButtBoy]

Yup, Asante's agent has led him down a dead end road (unless Asante ordered him to do so). He's between a big rock and a really hard place now:

Scenario 1 - Samuel plans to show up for camp and play all 16+ games.
possible results:
-he could get injured and be out of the league with 'only' $8mil
-he could get hurt just bad enough to struggle - losing playing time to Tory James will impress no one.
-he could be healthy and have an average season, bursting his Champ Bailey Bubble
-he could be healthy and just stink
-he could be healthy and have a great year
First four results mean he gets less than even what the Pats offered him this year. Last result means he gets franchised again. All five are losers for Asante

Scenario 2 - Samuel sits out until game 10
possible results:
-he gets hurt and is out of the league
-he gets hurt/hurt enough to struggle/struggles without an injury/just plain stinks, etc., but because of the shortened season and contract issues other teams give him a break in terms of valuation due to incomplete info.

So Asante almost has to turn his back on $5mil - none of the possible results of playing all 16+ games really help him long term while the results of playing after game 10 at least open the possibility he'd play not quite good enough to be franchised but simultaneously well enough to convince another team to give him the large based on his 2006 performance. So he's likely to lose money now no matter what he does.

My bet? His agent still can't figure out how to use an abacus, let alone a calculator, and mistakenly (in terms of "getting paid") sends Samuel in for game 1. All the better for us but not Asante's income bracket....

 

[JoeSixPat]

-he could get injured and be out of the league with 'only' $8mil
-he could get hurt just bad enough to struggle - losing playing time to Tory James will impress no one.
-he could be healthy and have an average season, bursting his Champ Bailey Bubble
-he could be healthy and just stink
-he could be healthy and have a great year
First four results mean he gets less than even what the Pats offered him this year. Last result means he gets franchised again. All five are losers for Asante

Asante is VERY lucky that he had no chance of getting injured last year... or the year before - because if he had he obviously would not have played.

I guess by this logic, very few NFL players will actually be playing since they too risk injury - but as you correctly point out, since Asante doesn't have a long term deal this season, there is just no way that he and the team might find a compromise whereby Asante would report to camp in return for the team agreeing to let him become a free agent next season.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Why agree to let him become a FA next season?
Let the Folker sit 10 games, assuming he enjoys shooting himself in the foot.
Maybe Mr. "Get Paid" will do the math and realize each game missed is half a mill NOT geting paid.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Why agree to let him become a FA next season?
Let the Folker sit 10 games, assuming he enjoys shooting himself in the foot.
Maybe Mr. "Get Paid" will do the math and realize each game missed is half a mill NOT geting paid.

Ummm - I think the idea would be to let him go to free agency only if he doesn't sit out 10 games.

If one believes that the team is worse with Samuel playing, then by all means, one would welcome him sitting out the entire season, let alone 10 games.

If one believes the team is better with Samuel playing, then having him play will make the team better.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: no deal per riess

His lack of an offer has nothing to do with that.

There isn't a player in the NFL not named Tom Brady or Peyton Manning that could command the 2 #1s in compensation it would take to get another teams franchise player.

And Tebucky Jones didn't command 2 1st round picks though he was franchised. And all it would have taken is a true offer to the Patriots to start the wheels in motion. Everyone knew that Jones wasn't going to get 2-1st round picks. The same with Samuel. Regardless of the Pats posturing to the contrary.

I don't believe, for an instant, that ANYONE offered Samuel $30 million over the 1st 3 years of a contract. I don't believe anyone offered Samuel a contract at all. I think it was plain posturing by Samuel to try and force the Pats to pony up more money than they felt was necessary. And I believe it blew up in Samuel's face. Because he's not going to get the long term deal, at least from the Patriots, that he wanted. Heck, I don't think he'll even be traded.

 

[DaBruinz]

BS. If the D line was the problem with Warfields play then why couldnt he stick in NE? Isnt the NE D line any good?

Its got nothing to do with the D line. I said Warfield was a BUM and he is bottom line.

Hey Skippy, stick around and follow along. It takes TIME to learn the Pats defense. Some players can do it. Others can't. Warfield clearly couldn't. He was a low risk, medium reward type of signing. He didn't pan out. So what. You going to say that you knew that Warfield wouldn't work out? Hell, have you ever put an opinion out there?

I will say this, though. I am human. I've been wrong about things. Many things. I own up to them when that is the case. As I owned up on Dillon. And I owned up on Beisel.

Let me know when you actually put your opinion out there and admit it is wrong when you are proven so.

 

[makoute]

Re: no deal per riess

And Tebucky Jones didn't command 2 1st round picks though he was franchised. And all it would have taken is a true offer to the Patriots to start the wheels in motion. Everyone knew that Jones wasn't going to get 2-1st round picks. The same with Samuel. Regardless of the Pats posturing to the contrary.

I don't believe, for an instant, that ANYONE offered Samuel $30 million over the 1st 3 years of a contract. I don't believe anyone offered Samuel a contract at all. I think it was plain posturing by Samuel to try and force the Pats to pony up more money than they felt was necessary. And I believe it blew up in Samuel's face. Because he's not going to get the long term deal, at least from the Patriots, that he wanted. Heck, I don't think he'll even be traded.

Did you think the same about Branch last year, Samuel is a better player than Branch at a more important position.

 

[DaBruinz]

Re: no deal per riess

Asante played CB as well as anyone in the league in the 2nd half of the season - and if one can bear watching the Colts game they'd see he had a GREAT game against Harrison.

No one would seriously compare him with Earthwind. Even the Patriots value him enough to tag him.

JSP - I respect your opinions, but I have to say I am surprised at how you twist my words.

My mentioning Moreland was to say that any CB playing on that side of the field would have gotten 5 of the interceptions that Samuel made during the season. Why? Because they came right to him due to the pressure that the D-LINE put on the QB.

As for what Samuel did in the Colts game, it was one game. And one game does not make a contract of absurd proportions.

Wouldn't a team have had to give the Patriots TWO first round picks in addition to signing him for a premium? Don't you think that might have been a teeny weeny disincentive that might have been a factor preventing him from getting an offer?

Did the Saints give the Patriots 2 1st round picks for Tebucky Jones when he was franchised? No. They didn't. The 2 1st round picks is the default compensation if the 2 teams can't come to an agreement. Its why teams, generally do a sign and trade type deal the way that the Pats and Saints did with Jones. Remember. The Pats only got a 2nd, 3rd, and 7th for Jones... Or was it a 3rd, 4th and 7th. I don't remember.... Anyways.

Wow - so now we're going so far to say that as thin as we were at WR last year, having Branch added to that mix would have made things WORSE?

The possibility was certainly there. And, there was also the possibility that Branch gets injured with the Pats. As well as the possibility that the Pats never face the Colts in the play-offs. Its the whole Butterfly effect idea. You change ONE thing and it changes everything else that happens.

I'm a homer when it comes to the Pats but all things being equal, I'd have preferred to see Branch honor his contract and play last season to give Brady a much needed additional target.

I'd never suggest that Branch would make the team worse - definately better - I'm not sure how much better but all we needed was ONE more first down against the Colts to go to (and likely win) the SB.

I'd have preferred to see Branch honor his contract as well. However, we don't know how things would have played out had he been on this team. The Pats could have won everything. Or Branch could have blown his ACL in the 1st game and the Pats could have ended up losing the division. You can't change 1 thing and not expect EVERYTHING else to change. There are just too many (trillions) of variables that change.

Also, there were more issues last year than just WR. Hell, all it would have taken is for ONE of Faulk, Dillon or Maroney to NOT be injured in the 4th quarter of the Colts game and the Pats win that game. Hell, had they just run the ball 3 times after Graham's 29 yd. reception, they probably win the game. But, again, changing one of the things even that late in the stage, changes everything else about the game.

I'm not falling for anything - I'm simply saying that the Nice Guy Routine is likely geared towards creating a situation where a no-franchise in 2008 situation is possible. I'm actually pretty cynical that there's a specific motivation for the nice guy routine

Of that's all it is, so be it. But it was coming across that you actually believed Samuel's agents for more than just the no-franchise angle.

And no, up to this point the focus was on a long term contract - NOT a no franchise agreement - so I don't expect that it already would have happened. Asante's agent would be stupid to play that card before attempting to get a long term contract done.

That isn't what you stated. You stated that all it would take is a simple compromise to have had a deal done. And, regardless of what you think, there is no SIMPLE solution. As I said, if there was, it would have been done. Think about the long term ramifications if the Pats had agreed to not slap Samuel with the Franchise tag.

That may be the case but he can certainly see the reality that if he holds out til game 10, he's putting the Pats in a situation where they might see the BENEFIT of making an example of him and Franchising him next year too - then he'd be in a similar sitution and if he again holds out, he's left $11 million on the table, and has a questionable resume of limited game time heading into free agency in 2009.

THAT has nothing to do with his talent - its simply the reality of the sitution which, if Asante reads the papers, he can't ignore.

Ok, its late and I've had a long day, but I really don't see how what you just said actually applies to what you responded to.

You responded to this:

Yes, if everyone had their druther's Asante would be playing in a Pats uniform under a long term contract. Clearly, that's not going to happen because Asante clearly is a fool who has no concept of what his value REALLY is.

How does Samuel having no concept of what his value REALLY is come into play with him being franchised again in 2008 and potentially leaving $11 million on the table because of hold-outs? As I said, its late. Help me connect the dots.