Aaron Dobson - underestimated even as a rookie?

[NEPettyOfficer72]

The three guys you mentioned all have serious injury issues and may or may not be even active to play by mid season. And even in a best case scenario, those three don't even come close to the trio of Gronk Hern and Welker.

If we want to be a SB contender, either our defense needs to make a miraculous leap or one of those three need to become elite players.

My friend lol ..... First off we still have Gronk, second off we have someone with even better attributes then Wes Welker and third of all, Hernandez was great but he can be replaced. And Aaron Hernandez is no Gronk. Fourth, we have at least 3 deep threats and receivers that can actually do more then just ONE freagin thing. And no, our defense will improve and is always leading the way in turnovers. Don't talk stupid, when have we ever won with elite receivers, and with Amendola's projected production why do we really need either of the rookies to be elite? And you are forgetting who the quarterback is and the head coach. And you are also forgetting about our ELITE running game since you want to talk about elite.

 

[ATippett56]

second off we have someone with even better attributes then Wes Welker

Who?

third of all, Hernandez was great but he can be replaced.

By whom?

And no, our defense will improve and is always leading the way in turnovers.

You mean the same defense that allowed 56 points and forced only one turnover in two playoff games last season?

 

[mgteich]

I just checked the Transactions list. There are no recent trades listed.

second off we have someone with even better attributes then Wes Welker and third of all, Hernandez was great but he can be replaced.

 

[NEPettyOfficer72]

Who?

By whom?

You mean the same defense that allowed 56 points and forced only one turnover in two playoff games last season?

Really? Do we have to go there?

Wes was someone who came into New England and with his attributes, was made famous by the hands of Tom Brady. Their chemistry was so great that it turned Welker into a better player over the years. And it wasn't so much that Wes was a great player all along even before NE, but more so the fact that his particular skillset FIT the system so well in the slot, and that role of receiver was what Tom Brady was so good at exposing to other defenses. The system's strength was the slot role. And Tom is a great QB so It was like a perfect match. I mean, Wes was good, but his role and style was maximized because of it's convenience for the offensive scheme and Tom. But if you look at it, Danny Amendola can do everything Wes Welker can do, but better in my opinion. He has the quickness, but he is more athletic, faster, crisper in routes, and has the ability to get deep which is something Wes could not do. And this is with Sam Bradford as quarterback. They tried to duplicate that in St.Louis what Tom and Wes were doing, but because Bradford is not nearly as accurate as Brady is, it put Danny at risk. And that risk was so often that I believe chances for injury increased. But now that he is with Tom, in the same scheme that his fellow Texas A&M predecessor was playing in and with the same but fresher attributes, Danny can see that same success or even more. And lets also not forget that coming in, he is more accomplished then Wes was coming in to NE. And this is just with Sam Bradford throwing the football.

And yes, they forced only one turnover in the post season because they simply cooled off in the end but also because Aqib Talib went down, it changed everything. Alfonzo Dennard also got hurt during that same game. So we were down to Marquice Cole covering wide receivers? You can't win like that. With that being said, turnovers are definitely going to be hard to come by, when you can't defend in the backside.

 

[Deus Irae]

That in essence is what I have been saying all along.

Meanwhile guys like DI can only see gloom and doom if we don't have immediate Superstars at WR.

WR is only a single leg of a receiving battery. Even with out Aperp, it may well include the best and deepest TE crew in the League, featuring the league's best TE, and three other ex-starter NFL veterans too.

I will never understand some fans. They criticize Amendola and Ras_I as injury prone, and then gaga over Zack Sudfield, an undrafted TE who was healthy only one year, out of six that he spent in college. He was granted eligibility waivers by the NCAA not once, but twice.

Two days into TC and I am already satisfied that BB will find some, at least adequate WRs, to add to the receiving battery, and improving it over 2012.

Until the pads come on, we still don't know how the interior DL retooling is doing.

I have sure as hell been more right about this team over the years than you have, and NEPO was certain that Donald Jones was making the team, so you can shove the "doom and gloom" nonsense. The reality, whether you like it or not, is that the odds favor the Patriots having a significant drop in WR and TE player talent/Production this season, which will have to be made up by the running game and by Brady being even better than he's been. That's not about doom and gloom. It's about percentages and history.

It is what it is, and your blowing sunshine up everyone's ass isn't going to change that reality. We're going to have to hope that the team defies the odds, because we're not going to be able to find the odds miraculously changed just because the issue is facing the Patriots instead of some other team.

 

[Rob0729]

Yes, it is, and watching the homers scramble to defend what happened is painful, because the excuses are truly pathetic.

Several things:

• I hope you aren't counting me as the homer because I think my reaction is pretty objective. It doesn't look like a good move now, but it could end up being a great move or even worse than even the most negative people think it is as the season progresses.
• Also, I think you might be the exact oposite of a homer on this argument. You act like the discussion is over and letting Welker walk is a huge disaster without actually seeing how this season plays out. You could ultimately be proven right, but you could also be proven wrong. In my mind, even the best and worst free agent acquistion or loss can turn out being completely different as the season plays out. Every year we see offseason free agent winners (like the Bills last year) go out and complete fail during the season and teams that people feel were decimated in free agency end up being contenders.
• You can argue the grade is out, but at worst it is the initial grade that can go anywhere fro A to F with the final grade which most likely be delivered at the end of the season, but could be before or after that. I don't know how you can deliver a final grade until we see what happens and whether Welker continues to be an elite slot receiver and whether or not Amendola can replace him.
• The fact is it is a realistic possibility that Welker hits the age wall. I don't know if it is likely, but the guy is 32 and has taken a lot big hits in his career and guys who make their living going over the middle hit the age wall hard and fast. At 32, Troy Brown (who was a far lesser receiver than Welker, but like Welker lined up primarily in the slot and took just as many hits) had already seen a huge erosion of his skills and by 33 was playing more defense than offense. Welker may have another couple of great years left in him or he could be a shell of his former self by November. That is how it can work with WRs especially slot WRs.
• Also, Amendola has the skills to potentially be Welker 2.0 in this offense. If he can stay healthy, he could become as good as Welker. it isn't likely that he will (at least the latter part of him being as good as Welker), but who knows? At the very least he has the potential to be a Pro Bowl quality WR and catch around 100 balls. Again, doesn't mean he will.
• And if you were pointing to my bad QB comments for Amendola's injuries as being a homer, I will admit that I didn't come up with that theory. I think Mike Flynn said it air yesterday. Flynn, as a former Raven, is clearly not a Pats' homer and knows a bit more than most how a bad QB can leave a receiver out to hang after playing with QBs like Kyle Boller, Jeff Blake, and Elvis Grbac.

 

[NEPettyOfficer72]

I have sure as hell been more right about this team over the years than you have, so you can shove the "doom and gloom" nonsense. The reality, whether you like it or not, is that the odds favor the Patriots having a significant drop in WR and TE player talent/Production this season, which will have to be made up by the running game and by Brady being even better than he's been. That's not about doom and gloom. It's about percentages and history.

It is what it is, and your blowing sunshine up everyone's ass isn't going to change that reality. We're going to have to hope that the team defies the odds, because we're not going to be able to find the odds miraculously changed just because the issue is facing the Patriots instead of some other team.

We are blessed... defy the odds?

We have the best quarterback in the NFL and a good chance that he is the best of all time. Only two other teams in the NFL can say that, that he has done so much with so much less around him, even without having a lights out defense which I know some will bring up. And Bill Belichick and his staff have been masterful at finding out ways to move the ball and make it work. Kudos to the young elite OC Josh McDaniels, truly a student of the game and one of the best in the league. That stacked group of running backs with talent and experience and a nose for yardage and touchdowns and a Wall of an offensive line led by an oldschool guru at pass protection and run blocking. So much experience, help, knowledge and resources around these young receivers and tightends that surely it cannot and IS NOT THAT BAD. Its not like these kids are some scrubs off the street and that Bill Belichick and his staff never know what they are doing. I sound like a broken record but again, Jake Ballard, Shane Vereen, Danny Amendola, Julian Edelman, Stevan Ridley, Aaron Dobson, Josh Boyce and etc are very talented guys that are young but can do so many different things and provide us with a lot of flexibility to make up for what he didn't have in the past. And then GRONK is coming back.... don't forget that. WE WILL BE JUST FINE. Significant drop? Outside of Wes Welker and Aaron Hernandez, who did we have scoring touchdowns last year? You better not say Brandon Lloyd.. but Let me answer that... the running game, which has gotten even stronger this offseason. And also Julian Edelman, before he got hurt which was unfortunate because I was enjoying his little run he was on. But compared to other teams, we have a lot to be optimistic about.

 

[ATippett56]

Wes was someone who came into New England and with his attributes, was made famous by the hands of Tom Brady. Their chemistry was so great that it turned Welker into a better player over the years. And it wasn't so much that Wes was a great player all along even before NE, but more so the fact that his particular skillset FIT the system so well in the slot, and that role of receiver was what Tom Brady was so good at exposing to other defenses. The system's strength was the slot role. And Tom is a great QB so It was like a perfect match. I mean, Wes was good, but his role and style was maximized because of it's convenience for the offensive scheme and Tom.

It's all about Tom Brady and the New England Patriots offensive scheme.

Gotcha!

 

[Deus Irae]

We are blessed... defy the odds?

Yes, clearly.


The rest of your post was just more of your over-the-top blind homerism, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Deus Irae]

Several things:

I hope you aren't counting me as the homer because I think my reaction is pretty objective. It doesn't look like a good move now, but it could end up being a great move or even worse than even the most negative people think it is as the season progresses.

You're a huge homer, Rob, and it infects just about everything you post. It's a shame, because when you used to be a little less of one, you were a tremendous poster. We've gone over this time and again, though, so there's really no sense revisiting it in any detail. We're just not going to agree.

Having said that, there's nothing that can change the Welker grade. It's already in. It was a huge screw up and it gets an "f".

 

[jah]

You're a huge homer, Rob, and it infects just about everything you post. It's a shame, because when you used to be a little less of one, you were a tremendous poster. We've gone over this time and again, though, so there's really no sense revisiting it in any detail. We're just not going to agree.

Having said that, there's nothing that can change the Welker grade. It's already in. It was a huge screw up and it gets an "f".

So what if Amendola is good, regardless of how Welker performs this year? Then he's young and under contract for a long time. How is that move an F when the season hasn't even been played yet?

 

[ATippett56]

But if you look at it, Danny Amendola can do everything Wes Welker can do, but better in my opinion. He has the quickness, but he is more athletic, faster, crisper in routes, and has the ability to get deep which is something Wes could not do. And this is with Sam Bradford as quarterback. They tried to duplicate that in St.Louis what Tom and Wes were doing, but because Bradford is not nearly as accurate as Brady is, it put Danny at risk. And that risk was so often that I believe chances for injury increased. But now that he is with Tom, in the same scheme that his fellow Texas A&M predecessor was playing in and with the same but fresher attributes, Danny can see that same success or even more. And lets also not forget that coming in, he is more accomplished then Wes was coming in to NE. And this is just with Sam Bradford throwing the football.

In your opinion! :snob:

 

[NEPettyOfficer72]

Let me just throw it out there....

Rob Gronkowski = Randy Moss
Rob Gronkowski > Any player on 2007 Offense NOT NAMED Randy Moss
Rob Gronkowski > All 2006 players on NE Offense by far
Jake Ballard > David Thomas or Daniel Graham
Jake Ballard 2011 stats - 604 Yards, 38 Recs, 4 TDs SB RING
Ben Watson's 2006 stats - 643 Yards, 49 Recs, 3 TDs which was his best, which is also something that Jake Ballard got in just his first season lol.
Zach Sudfeld's upside > David Thomas's Potential at the time
Michael Hoomanawanui = FB, something we didn't even have in 2006
Aaron Dobson's upside > Doug Gabriel, Reche Caldwell, declining Troy Brown or Jabar Gaffney
Josh Boyce's upside > Doug Gabriel, Reche Caldwell, declining Troy Brown or Jabar Gaffney
Julian Edelman > Doug Gabriel, and bigger skillset then Reche Caldwell
Julian Edelman = potentially a young Troy Brown or poor man's young Wes Welker. More like a young shifty Deion Branch without the great hands.
Kenbrell Thompkins's ability and upside > Doug Gabriel, Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney, and declining Troy Brown
Thompkins - looks like a young Chad Johnson without the bravado

Stevan Ridley > Laurence Maroney
Shane Vereen > Laurence Maroney
Shane Vereen's upside = Kevin Faulk or even greater.
Shane Vereen - better PURE runner and FASTER then Woodhead
LeGarrette Blount > Laurence Maroney
Brandon Bolden > Laurence Maroney

Leon Washington - Kevin Faulk's role, but not quiet as good as Faulk but even better because can share the role with Shane Vereen

Shane Vereen and Leon Washington = 2 3rd back backs
Leon Washington - Don't forget and discredit his experience as a runningback

2013 Offensive Line > 2006 Offensive Line

 

[Deus Irae]

So what if Amendola is good, regardless of how Welker performs this year? Then he's young and under contract for a long time. How is that move an F when the season hasn't even been played yet?

Because they'll still have needlessly lost Welker.

 

[Rob0729]

You're a huge homer, Rob, and it infects just about everything you post. It's a shame, because when you used to be a little less of one, you were a tremendous poster. We've gone over this time and again, though, so there's really no sense revisiting it in any detail. We're just not going to agree.

Having said that, there's nothing that can change the Welker grade. It's already in. It was a huge screw up and it gets an "f".

And you are a horrible poster who acts like he is God of this board who insults and berates anyone who doesn't agree with you. You are nothing but a cancer on this board spreading your biased anti-Belichick the GM rhetoric. You have never gotten over him trading Seymour.

BTW, I bet if you took an anonymous poll of this board of who is the better poster (and even ban the homers from voting), I guarantee I beat you in a landslide. You are starting to approach maverick04 in you stuppprn agenda against the Pats' front office.

 

[JackBauer]

There simply is no reasonable argument to be made that a grade exists at present in the Welker/Amendola trade. The results - i.e. production - are pretty much the most significant determinant of said grade.

 

[JackBauer]

You're a huge homer, Rob, and it infects just about everything you post. It's a shame, because when you used to be a little less of one, you were a tremendous poster. We've gone over this time and again, though, so there's really no sense revisiting it in any detail. We're just not going to agree.

Having said that, there's nothing that can change the Welker grade. It's already in. It was a huge screw up and it gets an "f".

Don't take this personally, but since Welker's departure you've taken a sharp turn for the negative, even when presented with issues totally unrelated. So I'm not sure how much weight your criticisms of other posters as homers presently carries.

 

[ATippett56]

There simply is no reasonable argument to be made that a grade exists at present in the Welker/Amendola trade. The results - i.e. production - are pretty much the most significant determinant of said grade.

I can somewhat understand the wide receiver purge.

I can somewhat understand the defensive tackle purge.

I don't understand why a defensive secondary purge did not occur:

Steve Gregory
Marquice Cole
Ras-I Dowling

 

[50-yard-line]

I can somewhat understand the wide receiver purge.

I can somewhat understand the defensive tackle purge.

I don't understand why a defensive secondary purge did not occur:

Steve Gregory
Marquice Cole
Ras-I Dowling

They haven't cut Gregory because they'll take a cap hit that probably doesn't make it worth it...and he's a more than serviceable backup.

Cole is a gunner. He's still on the team as a ST guy. He got eaten by Boldin but should never have been covering the beast in the first place. Injuries do things like that to teams.

Dowling? Why in the world would you cut a guy on his rookie contract who has finally (hopefully) shaken the nagging hip injury and has an incredible upside? This is a make-it or see-ya year, I expect, but cutting him now would be crazy. He's big and physical, fast as hell and has a tremendous upside.

Jeebus, if every team took your attitude, there'd be better players out of the league than in it, with tons of talent floating around out there. Waiting for the Eagles to dump Maclin any minute, and Revis...man, why would anyone trade for that piece of glass?

Notice that the Jets replacement corner just tore his ACL?

 

[NEPettyOfficer72]

It's all about Tom Brady and the New England Patriots offensive scheme.

Gotcha!

That's what maximized Wes Welker's skill set and style. The same thing its going to do to Danny Amendola #80. Except to me, Danny has more skill set and is better with that style. At least he shined before NE some. Wes only shined before NE in the return game for MIA.