Zappe vs Mac

[Tunescribe]

Pocket Awareness is SO UNDERRATED, Mac runs backwards, Zappe moves forward into the pocket the OL has given him.
Say what you want, you can watch tape.

Pocket awareness happens when there IS a pocket to be aware in.

 

[Betterthanmost]

Not really. He had Jonnu Smith, but that was really about it. You can see it in the screen shot.

Listen, it's cool if you like Zappe better, I like him too - but again, I'm trying to be fair and I had to dial back my affinity for Jones because in the end, I only care if the team wins games and each season is fun and not a miserable grind. Some of us lived through the early 90s and that 5-11 season in 2000. That's not fun for anyone, so however we avoid that, I'm O.K. with.

Let's pretend for a second Zappe stays as the starter and leads them to the playoffs this year, they lose, and then he gets hurt early in the year in 2023 and they end up with another rookie phenom they drafted next April who goes out and lights it up while he's sidelined while people pick apart whatever things they don't like about Zappe while he's hurt. Would you want Zappe to get a chance to start? Or would you be O.K. with things playing out with him the way they've been with Jones?

If the hypothetical phenom has it, lets say I see strength that are better and I feel they give the team a better chance to win, then I will be rooting for the phenom. I don't have any particular affinity for Zappe, I just see that he makes the OL look better because of his movements in the pocket. We have some weakness on the Oline and I see Zappe as the better option because he will not panic and just throw the ball up when under duress. I just don't see a franchise QB in Mac and it had nothing to do with Zappe. It sucks that I am ripping him and pointing at this faults but I can only imagine what BB thinks seeing some of these errors this year.

 

[Ian]

Zappe until he plays a ****ty game. It’s the only fair way to go about it

You can't do that to a player. If that's the case, teams would alternate QBs at various points all season and it would be a mess. Although, we have seen teams do that before, but it doesn't change the fact I don't recall a situation where that's worked out too well.

Again, the Bledsoe/Brady thing is a bad comp because Bledsoe went 5-11 the year before and only had a few games where he didn't throw an interception and also didn't throw a lot of touchdowns. He had a decent game in the opener but he made a bad mental mistake when he changed the play on a 4th down play that I recall being an issue, and then threw two picks and they'd scored just 3 points the following week against the Jets before the injury. So him sitting was a culmination of issues and he hadn't earned the same benefit of the doubt based on his recent play, and that was obviously a massive deal at the time because of his contract.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

1) Judge is indeed doing a great job with Zappe.

2) Hoyer is Mac's coach. His contact is a way to pay him enough to get him to be Mac's coach
=========
With regard to this thread, I think that Mac should start when healthy, and be on a short leash. In any case, Zappe was drafted as a backup and possible competitor in the future. What a HUGE success!

Hoyer is robbing the patriots blind. Cut his ass. A horrible unqualified past his prime player taking a spot away from some 22 year old athletic freak who could actually help the team on the field

 

[NG Pats Fan]

Everybody is under this strange impression where they act like Bailey is going to be amazing for the rest of the season and Mac is some neurotic guy who runs around in the pocket without any poise with a weak arm. It's been a little odd watching people get worse there as each week passes...I don't get it. I do think he got hurt in the opener with the back injury and while he said he was fine, he likely wasn't because there was a noticeable drop off in the second outing in Pittsburgh, albeit he looked only slightly better in Baltimore.

But getting back to Zappe ... does anyone remember the Denver game for Brady in 2001? As I said, everyone struggles at some point and Zappe's moment just hasn't come yet. It will. But hey, if he can be a guy who goes out and throws 40 touchdowns and one or two picks that weren't his fault every year, then I guess, good for him.

However, I'm trying to temper my emotions with the thought that we need to find out if the issues in the beginning of the season were due to the disaster that the offensive line was coupled with the erratic offensive playcalling, or if it's just Mac.

That being said, Jones has earned the benefit of the doubt, and just like I wouldn't want to boot Zappe at this point next season if the situations were similar with a new player, he deserves a shot at redemption.

Yes and zappe got to play against a clown of an NFL QB in goff, and a CFL level QB jacoby brissett. Mac got to play against the biggest bust of the decade Mitch trubiskey and of course he won

Meanwhile, mac had to compete against Lamar Jackson, Aaron Rogers, and Tua.

Big difference

 

[Ross12]

Yes and zappe got to play against a clown of an NFL QB in goff, and a CFL level QB jacoby brissett. Mac got to play against the biggest bust of the decade Mitch trubiskey and of course he won

Meanwhile, mac had to compete against Lamar Jackson, Aaron Rogers, and Tua.

Big difference

It was Hoyer starting vs Rodgers but he left after one series.

 

[Ian]

If the hypothetical phenom has it, lets say I see strength that are better and I feel they give the team a better chance to win, then I will be rooting for the phenom. I don't have any particular affinity for Zappe, I just see that he makes the OL look better because of his movements in the pocket. We have some weakness on the Oline and I see Zappe as the better option because he will not panic and just throw the ball up when under duress. I just don't see a franchise QB in Mac and it had nothing to do with Zappe. It sucks that I am ripping him and pointing at this faults but I can only imagine what BB thinks seeing some of these errors this year.

I know what you're saying, but if you're condoning cycling through guys without seeing things through and making absolutely sure with an evaluation, it wouldn't work well. If Mac is terrible, and Belichick believes it like you say, he'll never see the field again. If that's the case, I guess that's fine because now he can go and fleece Shanahan in San Francsico the way he tried to with us for Garoppolo. And I would laugh my butt off.

Meanwhile, you're looking at Zappe with a more experienced O-Line that has come leaps and bounds from where it was with an offense that is absolutely nothing like it was in Weeks 1-3. Jones ran hardly any playaction plays, (which didn't matter, because they couldn't run the ball), and guys weren't running open anywhere close to how they are right now. He also didn't have Bourne in one of those games, didn't have Thornton, and the way they were using Parker was also completely different.

There's a little more context that people aren't taking into consideration. But I know you feel the way you feel and that's fine, but as you said, this one's up to Belichick. So we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Betterthanmost]

Boomer says somethings better than I am saying. I think he was fair and balance here.

 

[Kdo5]

All this anti-Mac recency bias is mind boggling.

I think Mac was plateauing a bit toward the end of last season but I kept some hope that there was a high ceiling. With the finish to last year, TC, the preseason and first three games…I don’t think it’s mind boggling to be critical of his play.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

It was Hoyer starting vs Rodgers but he left after one series.

Oh right. Chips Ahoy had “fun”

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

That’s definitely one option. In my opinion this one is putting a lot of pressure on Mac. If he plays like the first 3 games and loses games how long do give him before benching him? If you bench him after that you can’t really put him back in if Zappe start playing bad.

My opinion is ride with the hot hand and let Zappe make the decision for you. best case scenario, Zappe will improve even more or continue to play great and you keep him as the starter or worst case, he start to suck and you put Mac back in.

I wouldn't be mad at all if BB rolled with the hot hand and stuck with Zappe, but still think Mac has the higher upside for us and should at least get a shot with the 'extended preseason' completed and the team hitting its stride. Mac also had a rough september last year with 4 INT's then settled in with the rest of the team. I would say though let's make sure Mac's ankle is 100% which could take the full estimated timetable and that I believe takes us to the bye week i.e 3 more games of Zappe, which would give him ample time IMO to screw something up or improve further. And then go from there. So I guess we're not too far apart on that

 

[signbabybrady]

At the same time, he's a pro now and he should be used to this given that Saban made him work for the gig in Alabama and didn't exactly have it handed to him. What the people who are killing him are forgetting is that they have the ideal situation. Jones is now going to have some additional pressure and we're going to find out just how mentally tough he is and what type of player we have.

If the doubters end up being right, they'll get what they want, a guy who can hopefully help them win. But if they're wrong, that means they still get what they want, a guy who ends up helping them win.

So... I feel like some people are losing sight of that?? There's no way Belichick won't play the guy who thinks gives them the best chance to win. But they still need to let the process play out first.

Ian you really should start your own website.

 

[Kontradiction]

I think Mac was plateauing a bit toward the end of last season but I kept some hope that there was a high ceiling. With the finish to last year, TC, the preseason and first three games…I don’t think it’s mind boggling to be critical of his play.

It isn’t. But the board should also keep in mind the competition that Zappe was playing against in his two starts on top of the fact that this system is the only pro system he’s ever been in. Mac, on the other hand, was transitioning from McD to Patricia/Judge, and doing it against a tougher slate of opponents. Doesn’t excuse his decision making, his floaters to the boundaries, or predetermining where he was going with the ball before the snap. Just some context when evaluating the two.

 

[Ian]

LOL, I'll add in another dynamic to this conversation. Try and keep in mind that Zappe is a rookie and isn't going anywhere for a long, long time. Whatever decision they make, if they're wrong, they can reserve the right to change their minds whenever they feel like it, if/when it needs to be made.

 

[Ian]

Again, Zappe's a great kid.

This video from the day he was drafted has made him a fun guy to root for:

 

[Ian]

I wouldn't be mad at all if BB rolled with the hot hand and stuck with Zappe, but still think Mac has the higher upside for us and should at least get a shot with the 'extended preseason' completed and the team hitting its stride. Mac also had a rough september last year with 4 INT's then settled in with the rest of the team. I would say though let's make sure Mac's ankle is 100% which could take the full estimated timetable and that I believe takes us to the bye week i.e 3 more games of Zappe, which would give him ample time IMO to screw something up or improve further. And then go from there. So I guess we're not too far apart on that

I think it makes sense to let him keep going at this point if Mac isn't feeling 100%. As others have said, a bad ankle is going to affect him being to move laterally as well as the fact that's sort of an important leg in terms of throwing the football. The leg brace he's been wearing I'm sure is to keep the knee stable since he's reportedly still been dealing with some stability issues with the ankle. No point in reaggravating it.

I'm confident enough in Zappe if he has to start which, again, is a nice luxury to have. As I've said, this is a situation that really doesn't require them to rush through it. At the end of the day, I'm good with however Belichick decides to handle it and I've forced myself to just being O.K. with either watching Jones or watching Zappe and seeing how it goes.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

I think it makes sense to let him keep going at this point if Mac isn't feeling 100%. As others have said, a bad ankle is going to affect him being to move laterally as well as the fact that's sort of an important leg in terms of throwing the football. The leg brace he's been wearing I'm sure is to keep the knee stable since he's reportedly still been dealing with some stability issues with the ankle. No point in reaggravating it.

I'm confident enough in Zappe if he has to start which, again, is a nice luxury to have. As I've said, this is a situation that really doesn't require them to rush through it. At the end of the day, I'm good with however Belichick decides to handle it and I've forced myself to just being O.K. with either watching Jones or watching Zappe and seeing how it goes.

Right, i mentioned in the other thread I'm not sweating any of this at all because I'm sure BB will do what's best for the team. Just enjoying the luxury of having 2 good options right now.

 

[Ian]

Right, i mentioned in the other thread I'm not sweating any of this at all because I'm sure BB will do what's best for the team. Just enjoying the luxury of having 2 good options right now.

My only issue is the split between the two guys while tearing down one to make the point of the other when the two guys are just different. It should be sort of a cool, "hey, this is different - I wasn't expecting that" sort of thing given that we've had to watch guys like Jarrett Stidham and other guys who couldn't play. These last few weeks have been fun because it's always fun to see guys like Zappe develop. Especially because he's a great kid.

The sideshow of division (which I heard 98.5 today, that was a big thing - shocker) is something that makes my head hurt given that we get enough of that outside of football. So that's my only frustration.

 

[VrabelJr]

As I hear names of Patriot’s Backup Quarterback lore I am reminded of a key invariant:

Not every man with a beautiful, extremely significant other is a Patriots backup quarterback. But every Patriots backup quarterback has a beautiful, extremely significant other.

 

[Tunescribe]

If the hypothetical phenom has it, lets say I see strength that are better and I feel they give the team a better chance to win, then I will be rooting for the phenom. I don't have any particular affinity for Zappe, I just see that he makes the OL look better because of his movements in the pocket. We have some weakness on the Oline and I see Zappe as the better option because he will not panic and just throw the ball up when under duress. I just don't see a franchise QB in Mac and it had nothing to do with Zappe. It sucks that I am ripping him and pointing at this faults but I can only imagine what BB thinks seeing some of these errors this year.

OK, this is getting to be a bit much. It's not Zappe's "movements in the pocket" making the OL look better. The OL was shaky throughout preseason and first three games. Then it started jelling at Green Bay with the running game getting into sync, Strange starting to find his groove, Trent Brown finally "buying in" and Cannon working in relief of Wynn. Zappe has been primary beneficiary.

Yes, it sucks you are ripping Mac because the "faults" you attribute to him are shortsighted -- including "panic" and "throwing the ball up under duress." The OL, Patricia, new WRs and NEW OFFENSIVE SYSTEM were in flux through the point he got injured; some of his picks were attributed to inopportune play calling and others' missed assignments. Mac's rocky performances this season have been largely circumstantial as has Zappe's positive showing.

What amazes me is how quickly folks here have forgotten the strengths Mac demonstrated last season when he finished second in ORY balloting: excellent pocket awareness, quick release, accuracy and great decision making. He led the Pats to a playoff berth and was the league's 15th-rated quarterback as a rookie. Suddenly his job is in jeopardy?

Zappe has been a very impressive surprise so far. He's the shiny new toy but IMO has more to prove vs. stiffer competition before this supposed Patriots QB "controversy" genuinely earns legs. Who knows, perhaps Zappe actually IS the better player; I have explicit trust in BB to make that determination. For me, the bottom line is WINS regardless of who's behind center. As a Patriots fan I'm happy we have both these guys, seeing it more as Mac AND Zappe instead of Mac vs. Zappe.