Zappe vs Mac

[Wozzy]

His decision making has been lacking. But his decision making was lauded last year as being great for a rookie. So what changed? That's the question. Only thing that changed was the OC and changing the entire offense. And Mac is struggling with the new offense.

For years during the Brady era we blamed bad coaching for ruining QBs. Now for some reason we have to hold Patricia/Joe judge in some high regard above criticism. Trevor Lawrence looks pretty bad this year. Is he a bust? Or a product of the circumstances around him.

Coaches call the plays, they design the offense. So you can't absolve them of criticism to fit the "zappe better" narrative. Last year Mac Jones had 30% play action. This year 10%. He also played more under center last year. That's all coaching. Now from recent articles Patricia/Mac talked about dialing back the deep passing game.

So let's see if there's more success scaling the offense back abit.

“Great for a rookie” is football speak for he didn’t entirely crap the bed. He played okay, he played well for a rookie which means he made some plays, showed some potential.

What most Mac fans expected in 2022 based on his rookie season was much improved play. Instead what we see is Mac from the last five games of 2021, he’s making the same mistakes, panicking and lofting it up instead of checking it down.

Mac wasn’t good at the end of 2021, he hit a rookie wall and faced some tougher competition… he went from 13 games in college to 17+ games in the pros. It was to be expected.

He throws too many interceptions, currently he still leads the entire NFL in interception percentage. He needs to play better or be replaced.

Nobody gets to suck at his job in the NFL without repercussions and Zappe played well… something lost in this “it’s the coaches fault” narrative. If it were the coaches fault Zappe would have been a disaster… he wasn’t.

 

[upstater1]

Why not? It's been working like a charm.


Clearly the move from Brady was a mistake on the field, especially considering that Bill had no backup QB. It was also a mistake off the field because Brady deserved better. He made Belichick, Kraft and some of the players richer and the fans happier.
And now we're finding out, a few years later, that Bill still may have not provided us with a decent QB. He definitely messed up.

Another argument I keep hearing is that Brady was killing our cap and had to go. There's no way that paying one player 50 mil over two years is a cap killer. If it is then the person responsible for the cap (guess who) is at fault, not the greatest player who ever played. Other teams seem to be able to pull it off. Why not the Pats?


Beside the cash savings, there was talk some time ago that Bill may have chosen coaches that are loyal to him and will keep his kids on the staff after he leaves.


The reason it's arguable that Bill is the greatest coach is his record without Brady, both with the Pats and the Browns. In both cases his record is poor.

I basically disagree with all of this.

Belichick spent the massive part of his career with Brady. Is it his fault Brady played for 2o years with the Patriots? You're knocking Belichick for Brady being part of the Patriots for 20 years. In Cleveland, they became a playoff team (and beat Parcells) once Belichick made the right move and moved on from Kosar to Testaverde. Actually, let's rewind to that Cleveland - Patriots playoff game. Parcells couldn't win a playoff game in New England until he hired Belichick to come on as the assistant coach. The change was night and day. 6-10 in 1995, Super Bowl in 1996. Then the two of them went to New York and turned the previously laughable Jets into the class of the division. When Brady was hurt or suspended during those 20 years, New England was 14-6.

Belichick drafted QBs all through his time in New England. You're getting on him for having no backup QBs? He drafted Garoppolo, Brisset, Stidham. These are all backup QBs.

 

[upstater1]

His decision making has been lacking. But his decision making was lauded last year as being great for a rookie. So what changed? That's the question. Only thing that changed was the OC and changing the entire offense. And Mac is struggling with the new offense.

For years during the Brady era we blamed bad coaching for ruining QBs. Now for some reason we have to hold Patricia/Joe judge in some high regard above criticism. Trevor Lawrence looks pretty bad this year. Is he a bust? Or a product of the circumstances around him.

Coaches call the plays, they design the offense. So you can't absolve them of criticism to fit the "zappe better" narrative. Last year Mac Jones had 30% play action. This year 10%. He also played more under center last year. That's all coaching. Now from recent articles Patricia/Mac talked about dialing back the deep passing game.

So let's see if there's more success scaling the offense back abit.

The whole league except for 2 teams is having problems with offenses. It's not just the Patriots.

 

[doesntmatter1]

I rewatched the Bears game and Zappe is still better imo. He sees the field pretty well and doesn't panic from the rush. I even like the way Zappe sells screens better. Give the Bears credit on the tipped passes. Some teams are just better at that. Oline struggled a little this game but things went to hell after the Meyers fumble. It wasn't 100% Meyers fault since Rhamondre didn't block his guy whatsoever. Those kind of blocks makes me aware how much we took James White for granted. Zappe's final pick was just extremely late, but he is a rookie.

Our problem is we should've committed to one quarterback no matter the situation. Not being all in is unfair to both qbs. If it is Mac, you can't just bench him.

 

[PP2]

Stranger things have zappened, though.

I'll be zapped if it does.

 

[Ollie]

Now use the same argument for our QB coach.

Explain how STs play against QBs (gasp). How coaching STs, requires that you study QB schemes and plays extensively. How it isn't extremely comical that someone with 8 years of ST coaching in the NFL, yet the fans/media are questioned for saying he has "zero experience" with NFL QBs. ....or how as a head coach putting together gameplans for the #31 & #32 worse offenses in back to back seasons qualifies?

Please explain how his college QB experience helps when this is what he did (yes, that's him in his main role as a holder at Mississippi St).



I've been critical of Patricia, but Judge was always the greatest concern. Both of these guys are arrogant hardos, so should we be surprised that all of a sudden we have turmoil in the QB room; or that a productive WR in year 1 finds himself in the doghouse/ bench in Yr 2; or that a serviceable OT is now completely de-motivated? Are all of these just coincidences?

Judge was also WR coach with the Pats

 

[Ollie]

I don't understand the Judge/Patricia defenders at this point.

Almost forgot about Bourne. Looked amazing last year. now can't find his way onto the field...the offense is a mess and it's because you have these two bozos leading it.

Bourne has also reportedly talked out to the media, got into fights in joint practice, been late to team meetings and talked back to Bill on the sidelines after a very dumb pre snap penalty. This isn't the way to get on the field at the patriots

 

[venecol]

Judge was also WR coach with the Pats

Yes, in 2019. We all remember how well it went that year with WRs.

 

[Sciz]

Bourne has also reportedly talked out to the media, got into fights in joint practice, been late to team meetings and talked back to Bill on the sidelines after a very dumb pre snap penalty. This isn't the way to get on the field at the patriots

And had a disappointing training camp on the field that the media widely talked about and even Troy Brown admitted to in a press conference.

 

[venecol]

Bourne has also reportedly talked out to the media, got into fights in joint practice, been late to team meetings and talked back to Bill on the sidelines after a very dumb pre snap penalty. This isn't the way to get on the field at the patriots

And had a disappointing training camp on the field that the media widely talked about and even Troy Brown admitted to in a press conference.

Yes, all of this is true. The question is why a WR that was incredibly productive in Yr 1, a consummate team player, that worked out w/ Mac during the offseason, that came in with high energy & positivity, all of a sudden did all of the above? Did he just go Loco?

Maybe there was friction w/ Patricia & he ended up de-motivated as a result. I doubt this was just a one way street. If he was an outlier I could see how it's 100% his fault, but we also have Wynn, Mac, Brown, and even Agholor to some extent. These aren't coincidences.

 

[Ross12]

I feel like Zappe's pocket presence remained very good last week, the batted passes were just killer. He was still seeing the field well and throwing well, finding open guys, the balls were just getting knocked at the line... if they can adjust for that in some way I do feel like he might really have starter-level talent but if they can't then he probably has a ceiling of a high tier backup.

Maybe part of the fix is a bigger investment in the OL like the Saints had to do for Drew Brees throughout his career, but that's a little bit too forward-thinking at this point.

 

[Ollie]

Yes, in 2019. We all remember how well it went that year with WRs.

I genuinely don't think you can blame him for Sanu, Dorsett, Harry and a very raw Myers. We had Edelman, Gordon and Brown but whilst Gordon and Brown didn't work out again i don't think you can blame that on Judge.

 

[venecol]

I genuinely don't think you can blame him for Sanu, Dorsett, Harry and a very raw Myers. We had Edelman, Gordon and Brown but whilst Gordon and Brown didn't work out again i don't think you can blame that on Judge.

Probably not, but him being the WR coach of that group is nothing to brag about. There's also the report of a player saying he didn't know what the f*ck he was talking about.

 

[Ollie]

Probably not, but him being the WR coach of that group is nothing to brag about. There's also the report of a player saying he didn't know what the f*ck he was talking about.

I don't think anyone was saying he should brag but it is relevant in response to your original point about his previous experience. And that report about judge had no direct source and cam out like 3 years later. If thats all you are going on it's not much.

 

[captain stone]

I genuinely don't think you can blame him for Sanu, Dorsett, Harry and a very raw Myers. We had Edelman, Gordon and Brown but whilst Gordon and Brown didn't work out again i don't think you can blame that on Judge.

Having Judge Joey as your position coach is one of the very worst things that can befall a rookie, as we all witnessed by the lack of progress from either of them throughout the season... Sanu was mis-used almost as soon as he arrived... Dude never should've been named WRs coach in addition to already being STs coach... He was just as unqualified at that position as is is now as QBs coach.

 

[PatsfanTN]

Having Judge Joey as your position coach is one of the very worst things that can befall a rookie, as we all witnessed by the lack of progress from either of them throughout the season... Sanu was mis-used almost as soon as he arrived... Dude never should've been named WRs coach in addition to already being STs coach... He was just as unqualified at that position as is is now as QBs coach.

^^^ 100 percent this.

 

[TinhWoodhead]

Stranger things have zappened, though.

Stranger Things, dunno why my kids can’t stop talking about it

 

[archstanton543]

Stranger Things, dunno why my kids can’t stop talking about it

It's a good series. Derivative but good.

 

[Ollie]

Having Judge Joey as your position coach is one of the very worst things that can befall a rookie, as we all witnessed by the lack of progress from either of them throughout the season... Sanu was mis-used almost as soon as he arrived... Dude never should've been named WRs coach in addition to already being STs coach... He was just as unqualified at that position as is is now as QBs coach.

Didn't Sanu have 8 or 9 catches in his first game and then get injured and then never recovered again? He hasn't done a single thing at any team since so i don't see how you can pin that on judge. Harry again was harry and it has been pretty much shown that he was a waste of space here and Troy Brown didn't have any more success than Judge. Meyers was an UDFA if i remember right? The biggest issue i recall with Meyers was Brady not trusting him too much as he is known to with rookie WR. I'm all for going all in on Judge but again i don't think you can blame judge for some of the above. Only Meyers has gone on to improve with different coaching and he was an UDFA and was possibly never going to set the world alight and also was competing with a first round pick for time and had a QB who didn't really throw to him when he was on the field.

 

[Ollie]

Probably not, but him being the WR coach of that group is nothing to brag about. There's also the report of a player saying he didn't know what the f*ck he was talking about.

I do wonder what would might have happened that year had we managed to retain a WR group of Edelman, Gordon, Brown, Harry and Meyers. That might have been a group to brag about..