Wise talk on Wise walk

[patfanken]

Yeah, despite all the negative talk, he keeps getting more snaps, even as the level of competition in the NFL's best secondary continues to rise.

Personally I think he's getting those snaps because there is no one on the roster to take them after Ebner got hurt.

I can't remember his name, but there is a guy on the PS who in TC seemed a very interesting possibility. I can remember he has good size, good measureables, and a great back story. But I can't remember his name.

At any rate. I was hoping Jordan would show an improvement after his disappointing rookie year, but lately it seems to be going in the opposite direction. He looks like he has no football instincts at all. (jmho) So I know WHY he gets snaps, but I also know why I'm not happy about it.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I refuse to give Richards any credit because I am trying to chase him out of town .

Geez I'm sure he can't outrun you.

 

[patfanken]

The think what I both love and hate about Wise is that he is the ultimate grinder. There doesn't seem to be anything explosive about him. He gets his sack/hits/pressures more from hard work than any great moves, speed,, or explosiveness.

You can see why BB drafted him. He has great length and uses his hands and arms very well. But the thing that set him apart was that he played low, with great leverage. You could see it even in his college tapes. Tall guys usually have that problem in that they get too high.

So while it is cool to see the numbers comparing Jones and Wise, they are 2 different players with different skill sets, yet got similar results. The only thing they had in common is both are "long"

BTW- Andy is right. Jones wasn't shipped off because of anything he did or did not do, on the field. He was trades simple because they wanted to get some value for him, rather than let him go for nothing, AND they thought that, while they likely wouldn't replace his production equally, they could get close enough to get by.....and they did.

BTW-2 I'm really looking forward to see what Rivers has to offer. Now that;s a guy I thought looked explosive off the edge, and had the physical skills to develop into a decent pass defender. It might take him even another year to recover from his ACL, but it will be fun to see what he has in TC next season.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I thought an issue with Jones was he was not "doing his job", while the sacks are all gaudy and such can never remember a BB team emphasizing this stat...

In Arizona they value sacks as an indicator of something.. BB has always demanded that the OLB/DE's hold the edge first...

I'm sorry but I think you're wrong here & this post is low hanging fruit for likes lol.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

The thing that stands out to me in the comparison of Jones v Wise is that Jones has almost twice as many tackles. Wise certainly has shown up as a pass Tushar and had upside, but Jones was a more complete player at this point, even if people judge him more harshly as a first-round pick.

 

[RobertWeathers]

The thing that stands out to me in the comparison of Jones v Wise is that Jones has almost twice as many tackles. Wise certainly has shown up as a pass Tushar and had upside, but Jones was a more complete player at this point, even if people judge him more harshly as a first-round pick.

In 2012 Jones played in 14 games and had 45 tackles in 732 defensive snaps. Thats a tackle every 16.3 snaps.

Thus far in 15 games this year Wise has 25 tackles 514 snaps. Thats a tackle every 21 snaps.

Hot take is Jones is a more active tackler but not by as wide of a margin on a per snap basis.

What I don't know is how many times in 2012 did Jones play the run/drop into coverage vs 2017 Wise and what was the tackle per play.

 

[Ring 6]

Personally I think he's getting those snaps because there is no one on the roster to take them after Ebner got hurt.

I can't remember his name, but there is a guy on the PS who in TC seemed a very interesting possibility. I can remember he has good size, good measureables, and a great back story. But I can't remember his name.

At any rate. I was hoping Jordan would show an improvement after his disappointing rookie year, but lately it seems to be going in the opposite direction. He looks like he has no football instincts at all. (jmho) So I know WHY he gets snaps, but I also know why I'm not happy about it.

Ebner was never taking snaps in defense.

 

[Ring 6]

In 2012 Jones played in 14 games and had 45 tackles in 732 defensive snaps. Thats a tackle every 16.3 snaps.

Thus far in 15 games this year Wise has 25 tackles 514 snaps. Thats a tackle every 21 snaps.

Hot take is Jones is a more active tackler but not by as wide of a margin on a per snap basis.

What I don't know is how many times in 2012 did Jones play the run/drop into coverage vs 2017 Wise and what was the tackle per play.

Tackle statistics are largely useless.
First of all where are the tackles made? After 1 yard or after 9?
Secondly the worst guy can get the most tackles because he is the guy they choose to (successfully) run at.

If I am facing Richard Seymour on one side and Jake bequette on the other I’m running at Jake all day long. After the game is done and I run 25 times for 185 yards at bequette and he managed 5 tackles and I run 3 times for 2 yards at Seymour and he makes all 3 a method of judging DL by tackles tells me bequette was better.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Tackle statistics are largely useless.
First of all where are the tackles made? After 1 yard or after 9?
Secondly the worst guy can get the most tackles because he is the guy they choose to (successfully) run at.

If I am saving Richard Seymour on one side and Jake bequette on the other I’m running at Jake all day long. After the game is done and I run 25 times for 185 yards at bequette and he managed 5 tackles and I run 3 times for 2 yards at Seymour and he makes all 3 a method of judging DL by tackles tells me bequette was better.

Yea but according to a certain poster Seymour is a slacker and rarely showed up in big games. All the reason to run on him.

 

[1960Pats]

Getting sacks does t mean you aren’t doing your job. Jones played great here and did everything he was asked well. The fact that Arizona defines his job differently so he is able to get more sacks doesn’t mesn he didn’t do his job here.
Unless what you are saying is the job of a guy who is an excellent pass rusher as well as good everything B.B. asks is more valuable to a team like az, which i would agree with.

I think some folks might be confusing Jones with Jamie Collins a little bit. He was the one who was freelancing, not Jones.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Yea but according to a certain poster Seymour is a slacker and rarely showed up in big games. All the reason to run on him.

I think some folks might be confusing Jones with Jamie Collins a little bit. He was the one who was freelancing, not Jones.

So basically most here haven't a clue what their talking about?

 

[1960Pats]

So basically most here haven't a clue what their talking about?

So basically most here haven't a clue what their talking about?

I only know that I don't.

 

[BTTA]

So basically most here haven't a clue what their talking about?

Maybe, although I think I usually have a clue. I'm just wrong a lot. But that's part of the mission of the message board, to help its users get correct info.

 

[RobertWeathers]

So basically most here haven't a clue what their talking about?

The GDT proves it.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Maybe, although I think I usually have a clue. I'm just wrong a lot. But that's part of the mission of the message board, to help its users get correct info.

I'm always wrong. That proves I have no f-ing clue what the hell I'm talking about.

 

[maineman209]

I think some folks might be confusing Jones with Jamie Collins a little bit. He was the one who was freelancing, not Jones.

Yeah, I don't think Jones freelanced, really. But I do think he had a tendency to misjudge/mistime his rush upfield vis-a-vis setting the edge. It seemed to me that some teams identified this tendency and exploited it by "inviting" him to dive inside the tackle, allowing the RB to get around the corner for big chunk plays. The Chiefs exploited this memorably in wk-4 of 2014. In fairness, they got around Nink a couple times, too - even when they weren't holding the crap out of him.

Anyway, it was still a problem then into his 3rd season, but I think he worked hard on it and did improve some before he was traded.

 

[patfanken]

Ebner was never taking snaps in defense.

He's been a regular on the short yardage/GL defense for a couple of years now. So he already was getting defensive snaps

I think the only reason he didn't get more snaps on the regular defense is that he had 3 guys in front of him who haven't been hurt since he's been with the team. I Bill wants to have a good run stopper who is all one of the best open field tacklers on the team to spy on mobile QB, there is no one better to fill that role than Ebner, and certainly a better choice than Richards

 

[Ring 6]

He's been a regular on the short yardage/GL defense for a couple of years now. So he already was getting defensive snaps

I think the only reason he didn't get more snaps on the regular defense is that he had 3 guys in front of him who haven't been hurt since he's been with the team. I Bill wants to have a good run stopper who is all one of the best open field tacklers on the team to spy on mobile QB, there is no one better to fill that role than Ebner, and certainly a better choice than Richards

Ebner played 0 snaps on defense this year.
He doesn’t play defense because he is terrible and Richards is firmly ahead of him.

 

[BTTA]

I'm always wrong. That proves I have no f-ing clue what the hell I'm talking about.

Which means you are wrong about this post, which if taken to its logical conclusion, will destroy the space-time continuum.

Please be more careful.

 

[long distance]

Here's a nice study of CJ for reminder..
The Film Room: Why The Patriots' Defense Works

While Wise is not as explosive as CJ he does offer more/different 3-down versatility - like Flowers - and can handle better inside of the line & double blocks enabling others to make plays. He was never meant to be a leading edge rusher even less in his rookie year after two injury ridden college seasons. Its actually amazing that he could pull off such a season..

Rivers was brought in as more of a designated and explosive pass rusher but unfortunately didn't make it even to the preseason games. After that they played Langi in that role a lot in preseason (also McClellin earlier in TC) and tried High at the start of the season w Ninko gone but nothing worked out. KVN looked good there for a while but with Hightower out and other injuries he is more valuable @ILB. Lee was a surprising pickup w great start but struggles in running game (plus teams now have tape on him) so Harrison now hopefully can give some of the edge that was washed away in a series of unbelievable misfortunes (for a single position) - even if just for a few decisive snaps per game..