Why do you think Patriots assistants are unsuccessful as HC’s?

[RobertWeathers]

It is one game, but there isn’t a truly positive case of a BB assistant winning a title or otherwise having long term NFL success. The main counter argument would of course be Nick Saban, who’s done ok in college with the same type of meticulous in game prep but also 30k foot view of the overall organization type of worldview that Bill carries. So most of the guys kinda suck, but the one guy thats most similar is unquestionably the best college coach of his era.

Not having Brady is too simple an answer - lots of coaches have not had Brady and won the Super Bowl. But I don’t think the Pats ex-coaches as HC have been less successful than non-Pats coaches as HC, so I’m just gonna say it’s a really hard job that’s success depends on faaar more than your own ability. Most people aren’t successful in the HC job. The Belichick connection and perceived success only heightens our (and others) expectations so the microscope is greater. Maybe Patricia will suck as a HC. But it’s not because he worked for NE. That’s just why he got the job in the first place.

Saban was ok in MIA. Nothing special

 

[TommyD4207]

Saban was ok in MIA. Nothing special

Yup. He was as good as any other Dolphins coach in the Belichick era.

 

[Thelonious]

I haven't seen a team so ill-prepared - technique, scheme, attitude - in quite a while. Neither lack of talent nor a "just one game" take can cover a stinker like that. Even the worst of Rex's teams had some sort of clever, cheap trick defensive wizardry going on. This was tedious, mail-it-in, nothingburger football at its worst.

I don't know much about Patricia's coaching staff, but he better give them a really close look.

Probably unrelated, but poor Matt is looking REALLY unhealthy, like the South Park caricature of Sally Struthers. I hope he's gonna be OK physically under the stress of this sort of challenge. Don't mean to overreact, and I hope I am, but I don't see this ending well at all.

 

[TommyD4207]

Detroit Lions tbe last 4 years:
2017 - 9-7
2016 - 9-7
2015 - 7-9
2014 - 11-5

I think Matty P is going to have a lot of doubters after an 0-3 or 1-5 start.

I think Jim Caldwell is a better coach than we all realize.

36-28 as the Lions coach, 26-22 with the Colts, including a SB appearance, and the 2-14 'Suck for Luck' season, where he was fired immediately afterward, in favor of Chuck Pagano, who went 44-42 (I don't count the Arians games, even though the official record does).

Caldwell made the playoffs twice with the Lions, something that hasn't been accomplished by a HC since Barry Sanders was playing.

 

[PP2]

For Mangini and McDaniels especially, they seemed to go overboard with a "my way or the highway" approach as a way to stake authority. But anyone who's actually gotten any in depth into reporting about the Pats coaching methods always seems to realize that Belichick knows when to ease up and put on the breaks. He's not just a hard ass. And he seems to have genuinely respectful relationships with many of the players. "You always know where you stand with Bill" is something I seem to remember hearing a lot, most recently with James Harrison. Players leave and some are bitter about contract disputes or whatever, but very few are bitter about on field stuff. The actual coaching.

Because of BB's rancid relationship with the press, he often comes across, and is reported as being a boor. We all know that he is not like this behind closed doors, and I would actually argue that he's more human that most coaches are, in this league.

I think this is a very, very underrated part of what makes BB a great coach.

 

[Kontradiction]

I haven't seen a team so ill-prepared - technique, scheme, attitude - in quite a while. Neither lack of talent nor a "just one game" take can cover a stinker like that. Even the worst of Rex's teams had some sort of clever, cheap trick defensive wizardry going on. This was tedious, mail-it-in, nothingburger football at its worst.

Yeah, you can't tell your defense to GTFB when your QB is firing out 4 INTs and your offense is having trouble moving the ball. You have to dial up some more pressure and take more chances than Patricia's defense did last night. Rex, for all of his warts, actually had a style that works better for teams like the Lions in 2018. Patricia's is fine if your QB is Tom Brady and you want to systematically choke off the opposing offense. It's a problem that will get you lit up like a Christmas tree in Detroit.

I don't know much about Patricia's coaching staff, but he better give them a really close look.

Starting with Jim Bob Cooter (LOL). How Johnson didn't have more of a role last night is anyone's guess. He is clearly their most dynamic back and made something happen every time he had the ball in his hands.

Probably unrelated, but poor Matt is looking REALLY unhealthy, like the South Park caricature of Sally Struthers. I hope he's gonna be OK physically under the stress of this sort of challenge. Don't mean to overreact, and I hope I am, but I don't see this ending well at all.

He's fatter than ever. The guy, from what I've seen, slams Monsters like Van Helsing on steroids.

 

[Gronk]

Saban was ok in MIA. Nothing special

Yeah no argument here on that. But he’s done pretty pretty pretty good in college. If we’re judging the full coaching tree that should count, as should Ferentz in Iowa, esp since Weis is always be cited as a case against in this discussion.

Weis, Crennel, Mangini, O’Brien, Patricia, and Mcdaniels are the only coordinator-level people we’re talking about here (Pees left for lateral job, and did well, am I missing anyone?)...which isn’t a lot of coordinators in almost 20 years of time. That’s 2 NFL failures, Weis never tried at NFL, OBrien and Patricia I think you have to say jury is still out. McDaniels failed in DEN but came home and may yet prove to be the true heir and most learned coach and team builder of the B.B. tree in the same way Bill once was from Parcells. Or he’s living in a waking hellscape of 3 forced jet sweeps per game, who knows. Anyway while lacking a current great NFL success story, I just think the vast majority of the BB coaching tree legacy is yet to be written.

 

[maineman209]

They have talent but continue to fail to build the team from the inside out. Solid WRs, but their line is ####. And their DL is pretty suspect as well.

The Lions aren't the only team that's run into difficulties with fielding a solid OL, talent-wise. The Pats are incredibly lucky to have Scar.

Rome wasn't built in a day. The Pats were 8-8 in 1999, and went 5-11 in Belichick's first season in 2000.

 

[borg]

To answer the OP question

1) Newbie coaches get hired by bad teams
2) Bad teams typically have lousy QB situations, whether it be poor personnel / terrible contracts / both
3) Bad teams have difficulty attracting good FAs
4) Depressing cities are not attractive to FAs

On another note….for the millionth time….HOW LUCKY is NE to have Tom Brady and his discount contract.
Imagine paying premium $$$ to: Stafford, Carr, Flacco, Ellie Mae Manning, Matty Ice, etc etc etc.
Stafford…yikes…..has Stafford ever considered putting some arc in one of his passes to go over defenders?

 

[Froob]

I think Jim Caldwell is a better coach than we all realize.

36-28 as the Lions coach, 26-22 with the Colts, including a SB appearance, and the 2-14 'Suck for Luck' season, where he was fired immediately afterward, in favor of Chuck Pagano, who went 44-42 (I don't count the Arians games, even though the official record does).

Caldwell made the playoffs twice with the Lions, something that hasn't been accomplished by a HC since Barry Sanders was playing.

He nearly won a Super Bowl with Peyton Manning (and nearly went undefeated as well). That alone is quite a feat to get outta the first round with Peyton.

 

[maineman209]

But then why is Andy Reid’s tree so successful?

While that seems like a reasonable question, it may be a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison.

 

[Sicilian]

I think mostly it's a combination of what everyone else has said:

A) It's a hard job, that most people fail at. I mean, who is the second most successful coach in the NFL in the last 20 years? Coughlin? Two good runs scattered in a lot of mediocrity. Carroll? Had an amazing 3-4 year stretch, but is that his shelf life?

B) There's invaluable experience that you can't learn from coaching under someone else. You have to go out, do it yourself, probably fail and then learn from that. Some people are lucky to have enough leash to go through that with their first teams, most need a second chance down the line.

C) And this is pure speculation on my part: I feel like a lot of BB students try to go into their first HC gig and BE Bill Belichick. That doesn't usually work. Bill's way isn't the only way to be successful, it's just the best way for HIM to do it. Bill wouldn't be as effective any other way, but these other guys should try more to be their own style of coach. Was there something you always thought was important that BB kept shooting down? Do it, it's your team. You're better off being 100% of what you do best, than wasting time trying to be 75% of what BB taught you. Take what you learned and adapt it to your own style.

 

[maineman209]

He tends to keep the team in there but he doesn't pull it out for them.

Stafford has led the NFL in game-winning drives three out of the last four seasons. He also led the league in Q4 comebacks in 2015 and 2016. Brady has led the league in each of those categories twice during the course of his career.

In his nine complete seasons (125 games through 2017), Stafford has 26 Q4 comebacks and 32 game-winning drives. In Brady's 17 seasons as a starter (252 games), he's compiled 34 Q4 comebacks and 42 game-winning drives.

 

[maineman209]

I don't know about the other ones but Patricia just flat out sucks.

We must all bow in the presence of your godlike ability to see the future with such certainty after just the one game.

 

[Kontradiction]

Stafford has led the NFL in game-winning drives three out of the last four seasons. He also led the league in Q4 comebacks in 2015 and 2016. Brady has led the league in each of those categories twice during the course of his career.

In his nine complete seasons (125 games through 2017), Stafford has 26 Q4 comebacks and 32 game-winning drives. In Brady's 17 seasons as a starter (252 games), he's compiled 34 Q4 comebacks and 42 game-winning drives.

Stafford also leads the NFL in most 4-INT games since 2009.

 

[maineman209]

Crennel and Mangini sure weren’t very good.

The Browns sucked before Crennel and have continued to suck since he left. The Jete sucked before Mangini and have continued to suck since he left.

 

[maineman209]

Stafford also leads the NFL in most 4-INT games since 2009.

How does that relate to the claim that Stafford isn't able to "pull out games" for the Lions?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Yeah no argument here on that. But he’s done pretty pretty pretty good in college. If we’re judging the full coaching tree that should count, as should Ferentz in Iowa, esp since Weis is always be cited as a case against in this discussion.

Weis, Crennel, Mangini, O’Brien, Patricia, and Mcdaniels are the only coordinator-level people we’re talking about here (Pees left for lateral job, and did well, am I missing anyone?)...which isn’t a lot of coordinators in almost 20 years of time. That’s 2 NFL failures, Weis never tried at NFL, OBrien and Patricia I think you have to say jury is still out. McDaniels failed in DEN but came home and may yet prove to be the true heir and most learned coach and team builder of the B.B. tree in the same way Bill once was from Parcells. Or he’s living in a waking hellscape of 3 forced jet sweeps per game, who knows. Anyway while lacking a current great NFL success story, I just think the vast majority of the BB coaching tree legacy is yet to be written.

I know folks on this board will shred me for this but even though he deserved to be fired I don't think Mangini did all that bad with the NYJ.

He made the playoffs his first year. 07 was a down year but in 08 if Favre hadn't gone in the tank they would have made the playoffs again. Fat Rex made the playoffs in 09 and 2010 with Mangini's defense.

 

[Fatmancryin]

BoB is doing an ok job with Houston. Health permitting they should be a playoff team

BOB Also went to Penn state before becoming a head coach in the NFL and dealt with that disaster of program in the aftermath of Sandusky pretty well.

 

[maineman209]

Usually winning teams don't change coach.

And the perennial losers like the Browns, the Bills, the Jete change coaches more often than their owners change their tighty-whities. Perhaps the owners are the problem?