Why do you think Patriots assistants are unsuccessful as HC’s?

[Joey007]

BB hires young guys from some college that has about a hundred people and trains them in his system, where he somewhat micromanages, but in a good way. Notable that the few outside, or experienced coaches don't seem to do as well [Googs].

Parcels, for example, hired strong willed, presumably experienced coaches and delegated a lot, put a lot of pressure and responsibility on them, like BB, Coughlin and Payton..

BB doesn't want to juggle strong personalities, he wants to win, but he's also not looking for ideas from outside, more groupthink.

This was the kind of answer I was looking for.

 

[Nunchucks]

This isn’t to necessarily overreact to one game, but definitley not a good start for Matt Patricia.

I just genuinely want to hear what other posters think the reason is for this trend.

Most head coaches are unsuccessful. While people like to kill Bill O'Brien, he has done quite well with a team that really did not have a starting QB. He can't beat the Patriots, but a lot of teams can't.

Give these guys some time.

 

[Nunchucks]

Crennel and Mangini sure weren’t very good.

Mangini had some success.

 

[XLIX]

They don't have Belichick and Brady.

Even Belichick wasn't Belichick until he got (and played) Brady.

 

[XLIX]

Nick Saban. Had team doctors nix signing Drew Brees due to medical reasons in favor of Duante Culpepper. The end.

He was a failure in the NFL, but you kinda left out the fact that he is arguably the greatest college HC of all time. Now, I realize it is generous to call him a member of the "Belichick Tree" but still....

 

[Fatmancryin]

They have to many snack times.

 

[patfanken]

Crennel and Mangini sure weren’t very good.

Crennel won TEN games one season with the Browns. THAT alone should make him a candidate for the HOF.

 

[XLIX]

Can we lighten up on the BB failed in Cleveland trope. He had that team turning around. The ownership, press, and fans, failed in Cleveland. The team that BB built was foundational to the Ravens' success after the team moved.

I think you are being a little generous here. After the move, the Ravens stunk for a couple years before winning a Super Bowl out of nowhere, and then stayed really good for a while. What key member of the Ravens' success came from Belichick's tenure? I sure can't think of any.

 

[PF_SU]

I think you are being a little generous here. After the move, the Ravens stunk for a couple years before winning a Super Bowl out of nowhere, and then stayed really good for a while. What key member of the Ravens' success came from Belichick's tenure? I sure can't think of any.

If you ask Ozzie Newsome, it was about the processes he established at Cleveland. Newsome said, how he did the 96 draft (where they picked up Jonathan Ogden and Ray Lewis) was heavily influenced by the scouting and draft board process established by Belichick. Safe to say, they probably don't win Super Bowl XXXV without either of those two.

 

[patfanken]

BB hires young guys from some college that has about a hundred people and trains them in his system, where he somewhat micromanages, but in a good way. Notable that the few outside, or experienced coaches don't seem to do as well [Googs].

Parcels, for example, hired strong willed, presumably experienced coaches and delegated a lot, put a lot of pressure and responsibility on them, like BB, Coughlin and Payton..

BB doesn't want to juggle strong personalities, he wants to win, but he's also not looking for ideas from outside, more groupthink.

not sure this is the WHOLE story. You left out the part where BB is open to suggestions and expects them from both players and his coaches. Micromanages is another term that is misused.

One of the great assets that BB brings to the table is incredible knowledge about ALL aspects of the game. Another is his love of coaching players. He combines these two assets all the time. That is why at TC you can see BB working with individual DBs, DL, OL, etc all the time. It isn't "micromanaging" he is simply doing HIS job and passing along knowledge. He is a COACH first, not just a HC. That is why after over 40 years, he still loves what he does. I believe Bill is happiest when he is on the practice field with players coaching them up.

As to Patricia, it was a particularly poor start. Detroit didn't look like a well coached team. LT? I don't know. He has the basic structure that he needs. (a GM who speaks the same language, a decent owner). It should be noted that BB went 5-11 his first year here and it took him a few years (pre FA era) to start to turn the Browns around. So basically what I'm saying is that next January will STILL be too early to determine whether Matt Patricia can be a good HC or not.

BTW- interesting to note that the new HC's went 0-7 in their debut games.

 

[mosi]

BoB is doing an ok job with Houston. Health permitting they should be a playoff team

They say that every year about the Texans. I am putting money on this being BoBs last year in Houston.

 

[turkeyneck]

I think you are being a little generous here. After the move, the Ravens stunk for a couple years before winning a Super Bowl out of nowhere, and then stayed really good for a while. What key member of the Ravens' success came from Belichick's tenure? I sure can't think of any.

I'm not saying that BB was our BB when he was in CLE, I'm merely suggesting that people too readily fall into the "BB failed" story line when in fact he was moderately successful. And also only pointing out that this CLE is not that CLE.

 

[Vindicate]

I think Bill himself said it takes years and years to build a team and organization around a new HC.

No surprise that a dysfunctional Lions organization that had veterans frustrated at Patricia making them put in heavy condition work like running laps for failed execution is having a rough time adjusting. Could Patricia suck? Yes. Can we really tell right now? Nah.

The more dysfunctional, the more time it takes to right an organization. Which starts off at years at the least.

 

[Coolade2]

Every situation is different... But to me it's just a super hard job.. on top of that , you're being measured against the genius coach, workaholic, with decades of success and experience.

Good luck with that. That said,. What is the measuring stick? If a team is better than average? Playoffs? Super bowl?

Being fans of this team, we know how lucky we are to have the confluence of HC,QB,and owner for 20 years. Mangini bailed since he couldn't handle it. Others are just battling with whatever hands they are dealt.

 

[BobDigital]

First we must ask this. How many NFL coaches are successful? Is winning a single championship the landmark?

How many coaches have won championships that we dismiss as horrible coaches who were carried by their players?

 

[PatsDeb]

The Browns sucked before Crennel and have continued to suck since he left. The Jete sucked before Mangini and have continued to suck since he left.

Except for last night, LOL.

 

[Simpelton]

The reason why is, Bill's a micromanager. It's been well established that he tends to meddle in the work of his assistant coaches and all the strategy goes through Bill. They don't get a lot of experience working independently and solving problems themselves the way some assistant coaches do.

Everything the assistant coaches do is dictated by Belichick's meticulous system, which is great for helping the Patriots win games, but not so great for helping assistant coaches gain the full suite of experience required to take the reins themselves.

When your career experience is as part of a machine, it's hard to develop the skills to become an engineer. If I wanted to win, or have a career as a successful assistant I'd go ahead and coach for Bill, but if I had an eye on a long career as head coach on my own, I'd rather be working for Pete Carroll or Mike Tomlin who tend to have a more hands-off, find-the-right-people-and-let-them-do-their-thing style.

 

[fnordcircle]

Impatient owners and fans, veterans with enough pull in the org to derail the new coach and a lack of control.

BB was given roster latitude and patience in 2000 that wouldn't fly in the NFL today. He took a roster that many of us in NE felt was still able to vie for a Championship and just started getting rid of the bad attitudes in order to make the roster he wanted. We went from a playoff team to 5-11 and looked awful. I was there for the season finale against the Bengals (99% sure it was them) and it was an abysmal showing.

So you've had some miracle turnarounds in the league but how many of those miracle turnarounds have lead to Super Bowls and how many have lead to the coach being out of work 3-4 years later after the early promise isn't delivered upon?

Still it seems like a lot of owners and fanbases go 'Look at what McVay did with the Rams, do that for us' thinking that because they've got 8 guys with 85+ madden ratings on their roster that's all that matters. When BB has proven, as someone's sig says, that winning isn't merely about collecting talent, a comment lost on those who seem shocked that we're not bending over backwards to bring in a highly-priced veteran who has underperformed and *****ed about his coaches openly on twitter....

McVay's situation with the Rams was the confluence of several factors, high draft picks, good selections, inheriting some good young players and a lot of cap room and some uncharacteristic patience with Goff.

Now look at Matty P. He's got a dog of a roster on it. Tons of talent but also a lot of ****ty attitudes and entitled vets. Fans are going to think "look at all our big names on this team, this coach sucks if he can't make them win" but it's more about fit in a system and willingness to be coached that determines success in this league, past a few athletic gating factors.

Matty's got his work cut out for him and unlike BB I don't think he'll have an owner that will let him gut the roster and then give him a few more years to see what happens. Maybe game #2 of next season Stafford takes a hit from Mack while running out of bounds and they have to bring in some young QB who isn't even on their current roster...

 

[Joey007]

I don’t think it’s that there’s been unsuccessful coaches from BB’s tree. That will happen. It’s just the fact that there’s yet to be a truly successful one is what surprises me.

The Parcells tree had duds too. Ray Handley, Al Groh, and Chris Palmer to name a few. But BB, Sean Payton, Mike Zimmer, and Tom Coughlin also came from his tree.
Andy Reid’s famous tree has produced duds like Leslie Frazier and Steve Spagnuolo as well. But also produced John Harbaugh, Doug Pederson and Ron Rivera to name a few.

I’m not surprised that there’s been guys that haven’t worked out, I’m just surprised that there hasn’t been at least one successful coach that has come from the coaching tree of quite possibly the greatest coach of all time.

Perhaps Patricia or BOB will figure things out in their situations. Or maybe McDaniels will be better the second time around as a HC.

 

[The Brandon Five]

I think you are being a little generous here. After the move, the Ravens stunk for a couple years before winning a Super Bowl out of nowhere, and then stayed really good for a while. What key member of the Ravens' success came from Belichick's tenure? I sure can't think of any.

You should call up Ozzie Newsome and straighten him out.

Ozzie Newsome learned from Bill Belichick, Ernie Accorsi

"We know how great Ernie was, and you see how good Bill has been, but bing able to learn from both of those guys really helped prepare me. The other thing that I think was so beneficial is that whole group that came over from Cleveland, me, Phil [Savage] [Jim Schwartz,] Kirk Ferentz, Mike Sheppard, Pat Hill, we were all just slappies together. We had all worked together. So when we moved over, it was like, 'OK, you know what? I have a title, but I'm just one of you guys. Let's go to work.' And it was fun."