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Should the Patriots cut Tebow?

  • Cut Tebow

    Votes: 155 64.6%
  • Keep Tebow

    Votes: 85 35.4%

  • Total voters
    240
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2011 QB Rankings

Completion percentage – 34th
Passing yards – 32nd
Passing yards per game – 34th
Yards per attempt – 28th
Passing Touchdowns – 27th
Times sacked – 12th (more than Tom Brady had in 16 games)
QB rating – 28th

Please note that these rankings are out of 34 total quarterbacks (14 attempts per game) therefore Tebow ranked dead last in 2, and in the bottom of all ranks except times sacked. Am I missing something?

So I have to ask the question Demo; are you lobbying for any of these players below to be quarterback in the NFL?

Curtis Painter
Matt Cassel
Matt Moore
Tarvaris Jackson
Colt McCoy
Kyle Orton
Matt Hasselbeck
Rex Grossman
John Skelton
Ryan Fitzpatrick

Got a link to where you are getting your stats from ?
 
Why would a JAG QB like Mike Kafka running an offense built for one of the best QBs in history be better than a specific offense built for a QB with a very specific skillset? Does anyone really think that Kafka running a Brady offense will fare better than Tebow running a Tebow offense?



I would much rather have Kafka than Tebow, any day of the week and three times on Sunday. Tebow sucks as a QB and I want no part of him playing the position for this team. if he does their season is OVER.
 
Didn't Tebow set a record for three and outs as Denver's QB?

Followed by a QB with the record for 1 and outs.
 
Tebow sucks as a QB and I want no part of him playing the position for this team. if he does their season is OVER.

How do you explain Denver's 2011 season then?

Our SB chances drop precipitously without Brady under center but to call the season over is silly since Tebow has shown he can QB well enough to get a team into the playoffs before and I think our team is more talented than the 2011 Broncos even without Brady.
 
How do you explain Denver's 2011 season then?

Our SB chances drop precipitously without Brady under center but to call the season over is silly since Tebow has shown he can QB well enough to get a team into the playoffs before and I think our team is more talented than the 2011 Broncos even without Brady.

I will never say the season is "over" without Brady after what we saw in
2008. That's the kind of coach BB is.
 
How do you explain Denver's 2011 season then?

Our SB chances drop precipitously without Brady under center but to call the season over is silly since Tebow has shown he can QB well enough to get a team into the playoffs before and I think our team is more talented than the 2011 Broncos even without Brady.

W Miami 6-10
L detroit 10-6
W oak 8-8
W SD 8-8
W KC 7-9
W NYJ 8-8
W Min 3-13
W Chi 8-8
L NE 13-3
L Buf 6-10
L KC 7-9

Average record of the teams Tebow beat in the Regular season 7-9

Average record of the teams that Beat tebow 9-7

Basically tebow was given a lineup of softball games, Games where a 46.5 completion % and a solid defense was enough to keep the games close enough that a field goal could end it.

points for the broncos during tebows run:18.5
Points against:22.7

Basically if the broncos defense carried tebow with tons of turn overs and short fields.

It's not magic, there is not divine intervention, Tebow isn't willing his team to win. Its a lot of really close defense oriented games decided by 3 points or less, with a few broncos getting blown the **** out of the water.
 
I'm curious if some of the supposed Tebow fans are just people who like to stir the pot so they're playing the Tebow card to do it. I don't think it's possible for so many people to deny or ignore the logic that comparing Tebow to any other starting QB in NFL history would show them; which is Tebow is not very good, and that's describing it nicely.

Going to go ahead and revisit this now.

Compare Tebow to ANY QB in NFL history to show how terrible he is, huh ? That's the statement ?


The tale of 2 QBs. Here are stats from their first 16 starts, including playoffs.

QB1
Code:
Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	Int	Rate	Y/A	AY/A	Att	Yds	Y/A	TD
248	494	50.2	3079	21	18	67.83	6.15	5.23	20	77	3.85	0




QB2
Code:
Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	Int	Rate	Y/A	AY/A	Att	Yds	Y/A	TD
181	388	46.6	2754	17	9	80.66	7.54	7.75	161	885	5.41	9



Here's the "differential" between QB1 and QB2:

Code:
Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	Int	Rate	Y/A	AY/A	Att	Yds	Y/A	TD
67	106	3.6	325	4	9	-12.83	-1.39	-2.52	-141	-808	-1.56	-9


Interpreting the "differential".

QB1 had 67 more completions on 106 more attempts. Comp % was 3.6 pts higher. He passed for 325 more yards, 4 more TDs but 9 more interceptions with those 67 additional completions.

His QB rating was 12.83 points LOWER. His yards per attempt was LOWER. His adjusted yards per attempt was LOWER.

QB2 also racked up 808 more yards rushing coupled with 9 additional tds.


I think that most rational people would agree that the passing stats for QB1 and QB2 are comparable overall. QB1 leads in the categories you'd expect given more attempts and completions, but QB2 leads in very important categories, such as TD rate, INT rate, QB rating and yards per attempt.


Tebow is QB2 of course, but go ahead and identify who QB1 is.
 
Got a link to where you are getting your stats from ?

Demo – I’m going to give you a quick overview of my take on the Tebow situation and maybe we can come to some level of an understanding;

1. I have no issue with Tebow personally, but I’m not looking for 53 people to my friends; I am looking for players that will help the team I support win a championship in 2013 or beyond. I commend players for their off the field activities but because I do not know them personally, along my personal policy of never judging a book by its cover I do not use these activates to determine my opinion of them, I rely solely on measurable, statistics, and live game tape.
2. I thought the Tebow signing was an excellent move by this team; at worst it gives the offensive players a different type of QB to work with and the defensive players something different to work against. At best maybe they can find a role for him on the 53 that makes him worthy of the spot.
3. I sincerely think that Tebow’s issue is mental; dyslexia is a serious learning disability whether you want to believe it or not, his mental comprehension skills and speed are significantly different than that of a person without this handicap. In college his immense physical talent allowed him to overcome the dyslexia, unfortunately the NFL is a much faster game and mistakes seldom go unexploited. For this reason I think he would be best suited playing a position that relied more on his physical talent and less on his mental prowess.
4. I do not want Tebow to be cut; I want them to place him on the non-football reserve list for 2013, and work with him behind the scenes. I also feel if you look at his contract (link below) it is built to support him going to some type of reserve list for the season.
5. I do not like the irrational crap Tebow fans toss around in here just for the sake of it; it is redundant and often times baseless. I also find it bothersome that there is a handful of more who hope to see Brady miss time just so they can see their beloved Tebow on the football field, which was telling when you saw several notable Tebow fans not make a single post in the Brady knee injury thread.
6. I do not understand how grown men can be so passionate about another man that they’ve never even stood fact to face with; and I do not understand if it is based around religion why other Christian players in the NFL do not receive the same level of support.
7. I do not understand how anyone can lobby that Tebow’s performance as QB overall in 2011 was good, his playoff game against Pittsburg was good but his overall body of work was poor to say the least.
 
Demo – I’m going to give you a quick overview of my take on the Tebow situation and maybe we can come to some level of an understanding;

1. I have no issue with Tebow personally, but I’m not looking for 53 people to my friends; I am looking for players that will help the team I support win a championship in 2013 or beyond. I commend players for their off the field activities but because I do not know them personally, along my personal policy of never judging a book by its cover I do not use these activates to determine my opinion of them, I rely solely on measurable, statistics, and live game tape.


Cool beans. More on "statistics" at the end.



2. I thought the Tebow signing was an excellent move by this team; at worst it gives the offensive players a different type of QB to work with and the defensive players something different to work against. At best maybe they can find a role for him on the 53 that makes him worthy of the spot.

Cool beans again.


3. I sincerely think that Tebow’s issue is mental; dyslexia is a serious learning disability whether you want to believe it or not, his mental comprehension skills and speed are significantly different than that of a person without this handicap. In college his immense physical talent allowed him to overcome the dyslexia, unfortunately the NFL is a much faster game and mistakes seldom go unexploited. For this reason I think he would be best suited playing a position that relied more on his physical talent and less on his mental prowess.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. That doesn't mean that they are right. You are basing much of this off of what you saw of him in 2011. I say that it had more to do with the game not having slowed down for him yet, which is something that MOST young QBs have to adapt to.



4. I do not want Tebow to be cut; I want them to place him on the non-football reserve list for 2013, and work with him behind the scenes. I also feel if you look at his contract (link below) it is built to support him going to some type of reserve list for the season.

Cool beans again.




5. I do not like the irrational crap Tebow fans toss around in here just for the sake of it; it is redundant and often times baseless. I also find it bothersome that there is a handful of more who hope to see Brady miss time just so they can see their beloved Tebow on the football field, which was telling when you saw several notable Tebow fans not make a single post in the Brady knee injury thread.


A couple of points here. First of all, I haven't seen any Tebow fans throwing around "irrational crap", unless by "irrational crap", you simply mean stuff that YOU disagree with.

Secondly, there aren't a "handful or more who hope to see Brady miss time..." You can't make that case and even your presumption vis a vis the Brady knee injury thread is off base. Hell, there are lots of "long time Pats fans" who didn't comment in that thread.

BTW, pretty sure that's an example of post hoc ergo propter hoc

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc - YouTube




6. I do not understand how grown men can be so passionate about another man that they’ve never even stood fact to face with; and I do not understand if it is based around religion why other Christian players in the NFL do not receive the same level of support.

99% of the fans on this forum have never stood face to face with ANY Patriots player, yet they are rabid fans and you won't dare question that. As for religion, I'm an Agnostic Deist, so you'll have to ask someone else.



7. I do not understand how anyone can lobby that Tebow’s performance as QB overall in 2011 was good, his playoff game against Pittsburg was good but his overall body of work was poor to say the least.


Because unlike you apparently, I look at the CONTEXT and take a number of things into account instead of just looking at a stat page.


Here, I'll go ahead an lump all this together.

You looked at Tebow vis a vis QB standings in 2011.

Completion percentage – 34th
Passing yards – 32nd
Passing yards per game – 34th
Yards per attempt – 28th
Passing Touchdowns – 27th
Times sacked – 12th (more than Tom Brady had in 16 games)
QB rating – 28th

Let's look at another young QB making his first starts.


Completion percentage – 34th
Passing yards – 34th
Passing yards per game – 34th
Yards per attempt – 33rd
Passing Touchdowns – 34th
Times sacked – tied for 2nd, but more than Brett Favre had in 16 games
QB rating – 34th @ 55.4


Guess who that was ? It was Eli Manning.


What this highlights is that it is absolutely silly to write a very young and inexperienced QB off based solely on the first "year" of starting in the NFL. That's why most coaches and experts, when looking at most young QBs talk about them getting 30 or 40 games under their belts before you really can evaluate them.

Eli developed. It took TIME. There were a number of years there where people, probably like you, were trying to run him out of NY on a rail. Then lo and behold, he settles in and now has 2 Lombardi's.

And no, I'm not saying that Tebow will definitely follow that trajectory. What I'm saying is that it is entirely possible, IF he is given time AND a coaching staff that actually wants to develop him.
 
Going to go ahead and revisit this now.

Compare Tebow to ANY QB in NFL history to show how terrible he is, huh ? That's the statement ?


The tale of 2 QBs. Here are stats from their first 16 starts, including playoffs.

QB1
Code:
Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	Int	Rate	Y/A	AY/A	Att	Yds	Y/A	TD
248	494	50.2	3079	21	18	67.83	6.15	5.23	20	77	3.85	0




QB2
Code:
Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	Int	Rate	Y/A	AY/A	Att	Yds	Y/A	TD
181	388	46.6	2754	17	9	80.66	7.54	7.75	161	885	5.41	9



Here's the "differential" between QB1 and QB2:

Code:
Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	Int	Rate	Y/A	AY/A	Att	Yds	Y/A	TD
67	106	3.6	325	4	9	-12.83	-1.39	-2.52	-141	-808	-1.56	-9


Interpreting the "differential".

QB1 had 67 more completions on 106 more attempts. Comp % was 3.6 pts higher. He passed for 325 more yards, 4 more TDs but 9 more interceptions with those 67 additional completions.

His QB rating was 12.83 points LOWER. His yards per attempt was LOWER. His adjusted yards per attempt was LOWER.

QB2 also racked up 808 more yards rushing coupled with 9 additional tds.


I think that most rational people would agree that the passing stats for QB1 and QB2 are comparable overall. QB1 leads in the categories you'd expect given more attempts and completions, but QB2 leads in very important categories, such as TD rate, INT rate, QB rating and yards per attempt.


Tebow is QB2 of course, but go ahead and identify who QB1 is.

D I’m going to pass on playing this poke holes game, as you piece together 16 starts over the career of a player entering his 4th season in an attempt to add creditability to a foolish belief that we should still be looking at Tim Tebow as if he was looked at in 2010 or 2011, the guy has been on an NFL roster, trained with the best trainers, coaches, and talent developers this entire world has to offer, he has shown no improvement, traded out of Denver by of the best left handed QB of all time, who clearly wanted a developmental QB behind Manning (he drafted one in 2012 right after trading Tebow), after that he was traded to one of the worst teams in the NFL where he was unable to run a wildcat offense, take time from Sanchez, and eventually was passed over for McElroy, which led to his eventual release. Now he signed an end of the roster deal with the only team willing to even give him the time of day for no guaranteed money, and completed 33% of his passes in his first preseason game playing against the 3rd and 4th string players of a 4-12 team (2012 record). Joe Montana could be the #1 QB and it wouldn’t freaking matter when you look at the big picture.
 
D I’m going to pass on playing this poke holes game, as you piece together 16 starts over the career of a player entering his 4th season in an attempt to add creditability to a foolish belief that we should still be looking at Tim Tebow as if he was looked at in 2010 or 2011, the guy has been on an NFL roster, trained with the best trainers, coaches, and talent developers this entire world has to offer, he has shown no improvement, traded out of Denver by of the best left handed QB of all time, who clearly wanted a developmental QB behind Manning (he drafted one in 2012 right after trading Tebow), after that he was traded to one of the worst teams in the NFL where he was unable to run a wildcat offense, take time from Sanchez, and eventually was passed over for McElroy, which led to his eventual release. Now he signed an end of the roster deal with the only team willing to even give him the time of day for no guaranteed money, and completed 33% of his passes in his first preseason game playing against the 3rd and 4th string players of a 4-12 team (2012 record). Joe Montana could be the #1 QB and it wouldn’t freaking matter when you look at the big picture.


the best part is one of the tebowites is about to tell you that this is all rumors and conjecture, since you were not in the offices of denver and the jets and all the other teams. and that tebow took the very least amount of money legally possible by the nfl standards to play for the pats, because he just really wanted to be a patriot
 
Tebow is QB2 of course, but go ahead and identify who QB1 is.


That would be Eli Manning.

Now unless you're going to claim that Tim will have the same or better career as Eli Manning - and I won't criticize if you do, you're entitled to your opinion - I don't see the relevance.
 
he has shown no improvement, traded out of Denver by of the best left handed QB of all time, who clearly wanted a developmental QB behind Manning

That's because "Elway hates Tebow". Remember?

Riiiiight.
 
D I’m going to pass on playing this poke holes game, as you piece together 16 starts over the career of a player entering his 4th season in an attempt to add creditability to a foolish belief that we should still be looking at Tim Tebow as if he was looked at in 2010 or 2011, the guy has been on an NFL roster, trained with the best trainers, coaches, and talent developers this entire world has to offer, he has shown no improvement, traded out of Denver by of the best left handed QB of all time, who clearly wanted a developmental QB behind Manning (he drafted one in 2012 right after trading Tebow), after that he was traded to one of the worst teams in the NFL where he was unable to run a wildcat offense, take time from Sanchez, and eventually was passed over for McElroy, which led to his eventual release. Now he signed an end of the roster deal with the only team willing to even give him the time of day for no guaranteed money, and completed 33% of his passes in his first preseason game playing against the 3rd and 4th string players of a 4-12 team (2012 record). Joe Montana could be the #1 QB and it wouldn’t freaking matter when you look at the big picture.


The stats for Tebow were from his 3 starts his rookie season and his 13 total starts his second year.

The stats for the 2nd QB are from his 7 starts his rookie year and his first 9 starts of his second year.

Something that should be added in is that the 2nd QB had a full camp and preseason under the "old" rules (meaning 2 a days were allowed) while Tebow had an abbreviated camp due to the lockout and it was conducted under the new CBA rules.

And no, he hasn't been with "the best trainers, coaches, and talent developers this entire world has to offer". He spent all of last freaking year under the direction of the woefully inept Tony Sparano and Matt Cavanaugh.

Like I said, you are ignoring ANY and ALL of the CONTEXT. You absolutely have to take other things into acct.
 
That's because "Elway hates Tebow". Remember?

Riiiiight.

Well it's clear that Elway didn't think much of him. Denver has maybe 3 more good years with Manning, why wouldn't Elway retain Tebow and groom him as the successor if he is as good as many of you believe.
 
The stats for Tebow were from his 3 starts his rookie season and his 13 total starts his second year.

The stats for the 2nd QB are from his 7 starts his rookie year and his first 9 starts of his second year.

Something that should be added in is that the 2nd QB had a full camp and preseason under the "old" rules (meaning 2 a days were allowed) while Tebow had an abbreviated camp due to the lockout and it was conducted under the new CBA rules.

And no, he hasn't been with "the best trainers, coaches, and talent developers this entire world has to offer". He spent all of last freaking year under the direction of the woefully inept Tony Sparano and Matt Cavanaugh.

Like I said, you are ignoring ANY and ALL of the CONTEXT. You absolutely have to take other things into acct.

what were the records of the teams both QB's faced?

The nfc is notorious for being a tough division, as opposed to the AFC west where a team can win the division going 7-9.

If you are going to talk about Context, please provide all the context.

Also since you want to compare them so much how about showing how each person has progressed. Obviously thats going to be tricky, what with Tebow not being good enough to be a starter in the NFL, CFL or AFL. So why not pull up Eli's first preseason game of his 4th year, and compare that to Tebows 1st preaseason game of his 4th year.

Lets see if either of them has made some progress,
 
That would be Eli Manning.

Now unless you're going to claim that Tim will have the same or better career as Eli Manning - and I won't criticize if you do, you're entitled to your opinion - I don't see the relevance.


Here's the relevance. Dial up your way back machine to the end of Eli's first year. You know, where he ranked 33rd or 34th in every statistical category that matters.

Would you agree that it would have been silly and borderline stupid to throw up your hands and say "Worst QB ever, he'll never amount to anything. CUT HIM NOW" ?

Of course you would. Why ? Because he had only started 7 games at that point. He was learning to read defenses. He was getting used to the "speed of the game" even though it hadn't slowed down for him yet. He was developing pocket presence.

Even in his 9 starts the next year, he still wasn't there yet. After 16 starts over 2 seasons, he still wasn't close to being the QB he would become down the road.


Tebow is being judged of a grand total of 16 starts between his first 2 seasons in the NFL.
 
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