Who is the team to beat in the NFC?

[Deus Irae]

Don’t you think it’s odd that Seattle has consistently “had a terrible offensive line” despite addressing this issue for years through the draft, free agency, and trades?

No. We've seen that happen with team after team. It was a problem for the Steelers for a while. It's been a problem for the Colts. It's been a problem for the Texans.

etc...

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Chiefs have improved greatly on defense. Them and Philly are the best all around teams by far. If the Pats had a prime Gronk, and a deep threat receiver, in addition to an elite pass rusher, I'd put them on this level too. Just too many question marks.

I think the Saints are pretenders. They have injury prone offensive lineman. And they don't have very good safeties.

That's just my unbiased opinion. The Pats still have a shot to make noise. But it's going to be extremely difficult.

NFL rankings:

1. Philly
2. Chiefs
3. Browns
4. Pats
5. Chargers

“and a deep threat receiver, in addition to an elite pass rusher”

Dude, do you really not get this!? This is exactly the type of losing formula that the Patriots have avoided for 20 years. 90% of the teams try to build their team around an elite receiver and elite pass rusher (priority right after QB). Both of those positions are highly overvalued and among the worst salary cap investments. An elite WR and elite edge rusher typically cost around $30-35M combined. Yet there are so many of them and so many better ways to spread that money around for a better offense and defense.

Your opinion doesn't appear to be "unbiased" at all considering the Patriots are favored to win the Super Bowl in Vegas, and you have the Browns (lol) ranked ahead of them. Seems like you really like to play Madden - that's the only way I can conceive of these rankings.

 

[sean10mm]

By my count 6 Patriots players have had double-digit sack seasons since 2001.

The Patriots won 0 Super Bowls during those seasons.

                                              Game                          Tack
Rk             Player Year Age Draft  Tm  Lg  G GS   Sk Solo Ast Comb TFL QBHits
1      Chandler Jones 2015  25  1-21 NWE NFL 15 15 12.5   31  13   44  11     18
2         Mike Vrabel 2007  32  3-91 NWE NFL 16 15 12.5   55  22   77   9     17
3      Chandler Jones 2013  23  1-21 NWE NFL 16 16 11.5   42  40   82  14     23
4       Mark Anderson 2011  28 5-159 NWE NFL 16  1 10.0   18  11   29   9     16
5    Tully Banta-Cain 2009  29 7-239 NWE NFL 16 10 10.0   35  20   55  12     17
6        Andre Carter 2011  32   1-7 NWE NFL 14 14 10.0   31  21   52  13     23

1,200+ yard receivers on the Pats didn't fare any better when it came to rings, either..

                                            Game                                    Rece
Rk           Player Year Age Draft  Tm  Lg  G GS  Tgt Rec  Yds   Y/R TD  Y/G Ctch% Y/Tgt
1        Wes Welker 2011        30 NWE NFL 16 15  173 122 1569 12.86  9 98.1 70.5%  9.07
2       Randy Moss* 2007  30  1-21 NWE NFL 16 16  160  98 1493 15.23 23 93.3 61.3%  9.33
3        Wes Welker 2012        31 NWE NFL 16 12  174 118 1354 11.47  6 84.6 67.8%  7.78
4        Wes Welker 2009        28 NWE NFL 14 13  162 123 1348 10.96  4 96.3 75.9%  8.32
5    Rob Gronkowski 2011  22  2-42 NWE NFL 16 16  124  90 1327 14.74 17 82.9 72.6% 10.70
6       Randy Moss* 2009  32  1-21 NWE NFL 16 16  137  83 1264 15.23 13 79.0 60.6%  9.23

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

By my count 6 Patriots players have had double-digit sack seasons since 2001.

The Patriots won 0 Super Bowls during those seasons.

                                              Game                          Tack
Rk             Player Year Age Draft  Tm  Lg  G GS   Sk Solo Ast Comb TFL QBHits
1      Chandler Jones 2015  25  1-21 NWE NFL 15 15 12.5   31  13   44  11     18
2         Mike Vrabel 2007  32  3-91 NWE NFL 16 15 12.5   55  22   77   9     17
3      Chandler Jones 2013  23  1-21 NWE NFL 16 16 11.5   42  40   82  14     23
4       Mark Anderson 2011  28 5-159 NWE NFL 16  1 10.0   18  11   29   9     16
5    Tully Banta-Cain 2009  29 7-239 NWE NFL 16 10 10.0   35  20   55  12     17
6        Andre Carter 2011  32   1-7 NWE NFL 14 14 10.0   31  21   52  13     23

1,200+ yard receivers on the Pats didn't fare any better when it came to rings, either..

                                            Game                                    Rece
Rk           Player Year Age Draft  Tm  Lg  G GS  Tgt Rec  Yds   Y/R TD  Y/G Ctch% Y/Tgt
1        Wes Welker 2011        30 NWE NFL 16 15  173 122 1569 12.86  9 98.1 70.5%  9.07
2       Randy Moss* 2007  30  1-21 NWE NFL 16 16  160  98 1493 15.23 23 93.3 61.3%  9.33
3        Wes Welker 2012        31 NWE NFL 16 12  174 118 1354 11.47  6 84.6 67.8%  7.78
4        Wes Welker 2009        28 NWE NFL 14 13  162 123 1348 10.96  4 96.3 75.9%  8.32
5    Rob Gronkowski 2011  22  2-42 NWE NFL 16 16  124  90 1327 14.74 17 82.9 72.6% 10.70
6       Randy Moss* 2009  32  1-21 NWE NFL 16 16  137  83 1264 15.23 13 79.0 60.6%  9.23

Great research here. While I think it is somewhat of a random cutoff, there’s no question that their playoff teams have been better when less reliant on one player and more spread out with talent. Jones is basically the exact type of player I’m honing in on when explaining the absurdity of signing a “high end pass rusher” to a big contract. This guy was barely missed when he was traded, put up huge sack numbers in Arizona, in a way “outperformed” his expectations, and is still a massive liability from a cap economic standpoint. Does he make the defense better? Yes. That much better? No way.

I don’t understand how a top CB is in the $15M range despite their being so very few really elite CBs, yet these edge rushers are in the $17-22M range. The supply and demand makes no sense...there are so many guys capable of putting up huge sack numbers, so why is this the second highest paid position after QB?

Wide receiver is largely the same argument, though the numbers are a little less absurd.

 

[Bruins29]

"Deep threat receiver" LMAO.

 

[TommyD4207]

Chiefs have improved greatly on defense.

I've seen enough.

 

[Uptown]

Chiefs have improved greatly on defense. Them and Philly are the best all around teams by far. If the Pats had a prime Gronk, and a deep threat receiver, in addition to an elite pass rusher, I'd put them on this level too. Just too many question marks.

I think the Saints are pretenders. They have injury prone offensive lineman. And they don't have very good safeties.

That's just my unbiased opinion. The Pats still have a shot to make noise. But it's going to be extremely difficult.

NFL rankings:

1. Philly
2. Chiefs
3. Browns
4. Pats
5. Chargers

...but we didn’t have any of that last year and we won the SB...

 

[ViperGTS]

...but we didn’t have any of that last year and we won the SB...

The best is the “Chiefs have vastly improved on D”. That is funny. Clark and the Badger? Lol. Pats need HFA and a trip the SB is a near lock.

 

[Deus Irae]

By my count 6 Patriots players have had double-digit sack seasons since 2001.

The Patriots won 0 Super Bowls during those seasons.

Not this stuff again

2007 had a 1000 yard receiver and a pass rusher with double digit sacks. It was the greatest Patriots team of all, and is arguably the greatest team in NFL history. It didn't lose the Super Bowl because it had a 1000 yard receiver, or because it had a double digit sack pass rusher. It lost because of a combination of freakish plays, and injured QB, poor officiating and a bad coaching decision. But the team got there.

2011 had 2 1000 yard receivers and 2 double digit sack pass rushers. It didn't lose the Super Bowl because it had those players. It lost the Super Bowl because the defense sucked and couldn't get off the field, the QB got injured, some timely plays were made by the Giants and there was a hugely important dropped pass by the Patriots. But the team got there.

Are people seriously going to try arguing that having those pass rushers and receivers didn't help those teams get to the Super Bowls?

 

[TheRainMaker]

Not this stuff again

2007 had a 1000 yard receiver and a pass rusher with double digit sacks. It was the greatest Patriots team of all, and is arguably the greatest team in NFL history. It didn't lose the Super Bowl because it had a 1000 yard receiver, or because it had a double digit sack pass rusher. It lost because of a combination of freakish plays, and injured QB, poor officiating and a bad coaching decision. But the team got there.

2011 had 2 1000 yard receivers and 2 double digit sack pass rushers. It didn't lose the Super Bowl because it had those players. It lost the Super Bowl because the defense sucked and couldn't get off the field, the QB got injured, some timely plays were made by the Giants and there was a hugely important dropped pass by the Patriots. But the team got there.

Are people seriously going to try arguing that having those pass rushers and receivers didn't help those teams get to the Super Bowls?

Yeah I don’t get that logic either. Are the Pats better off not sacking the QB when given the chance? Why would anyone complain about having two guys with double digit sacks like they had in 2011?

This is a new one for me. If I see someone on the Pats this year approaches double digit sacks, I’ll know the season is doomed.

If a WR approaches 1,000 yards receiving, hit that panic button.

 

[Angelpats]

What’s this about deep threat “receiver”. We have two of them in Gordon and Thomas.

 

[TheRainMaker]

What’s this about deep threat “receiver”. We have two of them in Gordon and Thomas.

They are not deep threats but they should be able to out muscle DB’s and beat then like a drum on back shoulder throws.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

They are not deep threats but they should be able to out muscle DB’s and beat then like a drum on back shoulder throws.

Gordon is absolutely a deep threat. He just isn’t completely reliant on speed like Cooks or DeSean Jackson because he can also outmuscle/outjump as well.

 

[Ivan]

I’ll pick the Saints. Strong all around team, really good coach and a great QB. Knocking on the door last two seasons, this year they make it back to the SB.

 

[IllegalContact]

The cardinals .... they are the team to beat



Up on

 

[farn]

I’ll add my vote : PHI. I don’t 100% trust their QB to finish a season, but if he does they should be a factor. Wouldn’t be surprising to see a take-three of NE-PHI in February. SEA would be my #2. Coach knows success, QB is tough and productive, a few added pieces on D will help.

I’ll also add my voice to those guessing the LAR take a step back. I’d put CHI, DAL, NO ahead of them.

 

[sean10mm]

Are people seriously going to try arguing that having those pass rushers and receivers didn't help those teams get to the Super Bowls?

Not at all.

Obviously players being highly productive is good.

The argument was that you HAD TO have those things ("#1" wr and "elite" pass rusher), which the evidence suggests is clearly NOT true.

If Gordon has 2,000 yards I'm not gonna go WELL HE SHOULD DO LESS lmao

Basically the Belichick Patriots exist to disprove YOU HAVE TO DO X TO WIN TITLES theories. Outside, you know, having Tom Brady haha

 

[Uptown]

The Lamar Hunt Trophy.

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

TIL that giraffes can easily kill a lion or bear

So that will be the name of the next expansion team?

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

Chiefs have improved greatly on defense.

Lost-Eric Berry, Dee Ford and Justin Houston; added- Frank Clark, Tyrann Mathieu, Emmanuel Ogbah and Alex Okafor.

I'm not really sure whether this is even improvement, let alone "great" improvement.