Where’s Josh McDaniels fall within all of this?

[Vindicate]

Imagine you’re a chef. A pretty decent one, and your restaurants manager tells you he’s found you a new supplier for your food.

Then he drags in a trash can from an Olive Garden and says here is your new supplier.

How well do you think that’s going to go?

Well, right. You're not wrong about that. But there's also this narrative that McDaniels is responsible for not being able to develop any skill position players. Which, how much of that falls on the coordinator, I'm unsure - mostly the reason why I'm asking these questions. To get a nuanced understanding of why people are saying these things.

 

[Vindicate]

Something, something spoiled fanbase?

This isn't much of a "let's hold this guy accountable my team is doing bad and I'm mad"

It's a "let's try to articulate how much we can actually hold him accountable - and how one does that."

It's an attempt to put some language to an oft tossed assertion that he isn't all he's cracked up to be and his scheming has been ineffective the past two seasons. Double benefit is that it then educates people like me on how to actually grade an OC.

But yeah, thanks for the input.

 

[Vindicate]

So - this person seems fairly confident in their assertion, but I have no idea what made him get there. I'm not saying that I'm not seeing what he's seeing, I'm saying "okay what should I be looking for here. I want to understand this more."

 

[ohiopatsfan]

The Pats have needed a speedy #1 WR for years and, with Gronk gone, a reliable TE. It is not JM's fault he doesn't have either.

 

[Jangles]

Something, something spoiled fanbase?

So because you used to excellent it’s now ok to be terrible?

makes sense

 

[Brick27]

Not sure how much he should be held accountable, and also not sure he provides any value in terms of making an offense better than the sum of its parts.

 

[scott99]

I think some accountability is needed from McDaniels on the offensive struggles the last year or so. He needs to tailor the offense to the talent he has. He’s not doing that. Drafted two TEs who are talented. Is he using them correctly ? Is he using Harry correctly ? The run game, is #2 in the NFL in rushing yards per game, can he exploit defenses with that. Remember the TE post pattern ? The Pats used to kill teams with that. Line up in 2 TE offense with a FB and a RB, that can catch teams off guard, could be a run or pass. The offense is so predictable.

Listen, Harry, Asiasi, Keene & Harris are decent players, as is Sony Michel and James White. Utilize the skills they do have, don’t key on what they DONT have. I’m certain a good OC can get more out of them. Maybe bring back O’Brien to help out the offense. They brought in this Fish guy to help. Can’t keep doing what doesn’t work. Need to try different things.

 

[cupofjoe1962]

I love Belichick, but all our offensive woes are the result of poor drafting in recent years.

I am glad Tom left, because we just don’t have any offensive skilled position with any talent anymore other than when Brady was here.

Our WR, RB, & TE talent wise are the worse in the NFL as a group. The WR & TE each are by far the worse in the NFL and our running backs are 30th at best.

The groceries have been terrible in recent years, and Belichick owns it.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Bring back O'Brien, say bye to McDaniels. Also bring in Dimitroff or Pioli to consult.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

It’s quite clear McDaniels is awful at evaluating talent for skill position. He prefers Boy Scouts over playmakers. His micro managing style is not popular with players

excellent post. The combination of terrible talent evaluator but worse that he sits players who are good like Asiasi. He's terrible without Brady, examples being St Louis, Denver, and this season. It's like he only knows how to coach 1 way, with an elite QB and hell bent on certain WR plays, ignoring TEs. He had to use Gronk who O'Brien developed but McDaniels has never developed any tight end in 15 years of evidence (Graham and Watson were drafted during Weiss and Watson got the ghost treatment from McD even when the WRs were horrible in 05-06)

.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I wanna talk about Erhardt-Perkins system here, specifically, how the EP system is actually a DETRIMENT to our poor receiving corps

We do not have the pieces necessary to make good use of this system, right now. We do not have players that can fit multiple spots and play multiple sets. Even our RBs, who are the stronget position skill we have, are suddenly faltering whenever they go to the line

why is that?

Well, The most obvious answer is depth of playing field. As of now, we do not have any 10+ plus threats. None. Gronk isnt running seams, Dorsett isnt being a decent 3rd guy that can stretch the field (and I thought he was easily repleceable, so Im not even escaping judgment here)

But here is a thought that has been roaming in mind for awhile now

The most innovative OCs out there are going very far from "disguising" plays, most of time. They show the adversary their packages and, through designs, they get open space. You can see it before, how many trips and bunch formations we face, how many cross pattern routes, In & outs in paralel work against us, or whatever you want to call it.

McDaniels, whom i think was the biggest beneficiary of Brady, is "handicaped", in my opinion, to this directive. The EP system doesnt work well on non-orthodox packages, it was created to disguise "simple" formations. We have a desperate need to adapt.

So, where am i getting at? I think McDaniels is far behind the times for awhile now. Its not that EP system CANT get utility out of creative use of personnel, but at some point the coaching staff (and McDaniels is the main responsible for the O) needs to realize that whatever is happening on offense IS NOT WORKING.

Its not only this year. Its not only the players.

We wont have Tom Brady to minimize receiving woes anymore.

Excellent explanation. We need a new coordinator.

.

 

[fnordcircle]

Honestly, Josh deserves a ton of blame for telling WRs to not get separation.

Also, I have no freaking idea why on earth he'd be commanding Cam to throw the ball into the ground 12 feet in front of the intended receiver.

Josh has a lot of explaining to do for these dumbass choices.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I posted this Q in a thread maybe two weeks back and I still haven't moved on from wondering...

Given the recent offensive woes, how do you view McDaniels? While I'm hesitant to say "Brady made Belichick," I'm certainly willing to believe that Brady made McDaniels. Which is a recent change in opinion.

What's the process through which you go to grade an OC? How has McDaniels lived up to your grade?

Is he maximizing the strengths of personnel around him? Utilizing all personnel correctly? Can we make the defense change? Take advantage of matchups? Cover up a few deficiencies. Few other things but these give you a good idea.

Is this purely a personnel issue or is it lazy game-planning? How do you tell the difference?

A lot more personnel imo. We've seen Josh do great things with less than ideal parts. Mostly Jules, Gronk and good pieces mixed in but never a dominant outside threat for the most part. If Josh were ignoring a glaring strength maybe you could say something but he's not lazy imo.

What is McDaniel's weakness and how did Brady mask that?

Brady masked a lot. So much it's a whole other topic. But the biggest thing imo was he actually had Brady. He never had to consistently out scheme anyone bc he had the most consistent, driven QB ever to dissect defenses so Josh was always at a + 1 advantage bc of 12.

Bonus question: who is the offensive guru of the league now? And what is the trajectory of McDaniels at this point?

Shanahan, Daboll & Roman have been pretty great. Mcvay, I really the Rams WR & OL coach. Shanahan, Daboll & Roman all have one thing in common maybe over Mcvay but what do I know? They self-scout as good as anyone. Get to know their opponents weaknesses and exploit the hell out of it. Maybe EB from KC too. All creative, efficient and dangerous running the same thing from different formations - using formations and creating a numbers advantage.
Kliff King in Arizona is another really good one. Brady and Rhule have been good in Carolina for what they're working with. Arthur Smith in Tennessee is another guy always worth checking out. Hes been great. With the run and PA pass game. Carmichael in NO.

There's plenty of others and I don't want to get into college guys but I still have faith in Josh. He really has little to work with. It's been injuries on the OL. Erratic QB play. No big time setter on offense. I have a few issues with him but it's tough to get excited about him when the talent, play and execution hasn't been there.

As always, big fan of the X's and O's, even if I don't understand them all that well. Hopefully this can create a decent discussion - let's keep arguments on the low (I'm a big fan of discourse but would like to refrain from 'youre dumb and I hate you' posts.)

Hot takes are cool, just as long as they're not purely inflammatory lol.

My hot take is I hope Bill wants to stick around bc this could be a real rebuild. You know he wants the win record but only has so much time left. Let's say a team that gets Lawrence ... The Falcons, Giants, anyone but the jets. Offers him 12-15 per year? Would he consider?

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Is he maximizing the strengths of personnel around him? Utilizing all personnel correctly? Can we make the defense change? Take advantage of matchups? Cover up a few deficiencies. Few other things but these give you a good idea.

A lot more personnel imo. We've seen Josh do great things with less than ideal parts. Mostly Jules, Gronk and good pieces mixed in but never a dominant outside threat for the most part. If Josh were ignoring a glaring strength maybe you could say something but he's not lazy imo.

Brady masked a lot. So much it's a whole other topic. But the biggest thing imo was he actually had Brady. He never had to consistently out scheme anyone bc he had the most consistent, driven QB ever to dissect defenses so Josh was always at a + 1 advantage bc of 12.

Shanahan, Daboll & Roman have been pretty great. Mcvay, I really the Rams WR & OL coach. Shanahan, Daboll & Roman all have one thing in common maybe over Mcvay but what do I know? They self-scout as good as anyone. Get to know their opponents weaknesses and exploit the hell out of it. Maybe EB from KC too. All creative, efficient and dangerous running the same thing from different formations - using formations and creating a numbers advantage.
Kliff King in Arizona is another really good one. Brady and Rhule have been good in Carolina for what they're working with. Arthur Smith in Tennessee is another guy always worth checking out. Hes been great. With the run and PA pass game. Carmichael in NO.

There's plenty of others and I don't want to get into college guys but I still have faith in Josh. He really has little to work with. It's been injuries on the OL. Erratic QB play. No big time setter on offense. I have a few issues with him but it's tough to get excited about him when the talent, play and execution hasn't been there.

My hot take is I hope Bill wants to stick around bc this could be a real rebuild. You know he wants the win record but only has so much time left. Let's say a team that gets Lawrence ... The Falcons, Giants, anyone but the jets. Offers him 12-15 per year? Would he consider?

Agree. Answer is NO, McDaniels is not adjusting the offense to adapt to his players. We should be running 40+ times a game. And in the red zone stop those dumb fancy plays, literally go 4-wide and let Cam run/pass. Pretty much unstoppable IMO with Cam at the 2 yard line with 4 wide receivers drawing defenders far away from the line of scrimmage.

 

[Sfpat]

Honestly, Josh deserves a ton of blame for telling WRs to not get separation.

Also, I have no freaking idea why on earth he'd be commanding Cam to throw the ball into the ground 12 feet in front of the intended receiver.

Josh has a lot of explaining to do for these dumbass choices.

Do you watch other NFL games? Not too many WR's get separation one on one and completions are usually into tight windows, like when TB was here. When WRs do get separation, it's usually because of a scheme which created the separation. Pats are running the same routes they've been running for the past 20 years which every defensive coordinator knows by heart but with a QB that can't throw into a tight window. There aren't that many Randy Moss' running around.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Do you watch other NFL games? Not too many WR's get separation one on one and completions are usually into tight windows, like when TB was here. When WRs do get separation, it's usually because of a scheme which created the separation. Pats are running the same routes they've been running for the past 20 years which every defensive coordinator knows by heart but with a QB that can't throw into a tight window. There aren't that many Randy Moss' running around.

Playing Izzo over the 2 rookies is all McDaniels and is pure idiocy. Izzo is a bad blocker and also not a good receiver. Zero point to have him play so many snaps for 6 games. That's on the offensive squad coordinator. It's his game plan that Belichick reviews

.

 

[PatsBoy12]

He's complicit. We can squabble about the extent of his portion of the blame, he's definitely part of the mess.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Peter King: Tom Brady 'knew New England for a quarterback was hopeless’

The veteran NFL writer lends some insight into Brady's departure.

www.masslive.com

Stop trying to claim our receivers are open and great and blame it on Cam. Our skills players are terrible and the OC hasn't developed anyone in 8 years

 

[fnordcircle]

Do you watch other NFL games? Not too many WR's get separation one on one and completions are usually into tight windows, like when TB was here. When WRs do get separation, it's usually because of a scheme which created the separation. Pats are running the same routes they've been running for the past 20 years which every defensive coordinator knows by heart but with a QB that can't throw into a tight window. There aren't that many Randy Moss' running around.

I don't watch any football. That's the only logical reason why I could feel like the stats about our league low separation are valid.

 

[TheRainMaker]

McDaniels is treading towards Adam Gase/Mike McCoy territory. Aside from that one year with Matt Cassel (which scored him the Broncos job), he has not done anything outside of Tom Brady as his QB.

I get it he's really excited about his new hairdo, but he needs to spend more time finding a way get the ball to his 1st round pick.