Where’s Josh McDaniels fall within all of this?

[lancerman]

I'm no X's and O's guy but if the offense is too complex for most skill players to pick up, how about simplifying it? Because surely some production from a simplified offense is better than no production from the much vaunted McDaniels offense?

The offense being complicated is to the benefit of weaker talent who need to rely on scheming and deception of the defense to get open. Josh calling simplified vanilla offense is going to force theses guys to beat players they already can’t

 

[lancerman]

I wonder why other rookies even some UDFA can make contributions and get involved while our don't. Their offense can't be that easier.

Look at Chris Hogan. A poorer talent is fine when he’s getting covered by a number 3 or 4 cornerback because it’s easier. That’s how UDFA’s get production. It’s why Byrd is occasionally open here. But someone like Harry and Edelman can just get iced out of games going against the top guys

 

[Kontradiction]

His head coach and GM has surrounded him with the slowest skill position group in the league. Byrd, a WR3-WR4, is taking WR1 reps; Edelman is dinged up and over the hill; Harry is more suited to be an H-Back/Move TE than a flanker or a split end; and the two rookie TEs have done nothing of note and have struggled to even get on the field over Izzo (who is a bum in his own right). The RB stable is decent at best, but Michel is injury-prone and will have a short shelf life and there’s only so much White can do when he becomes a focal point due to the WRs and TEs being among the worst in the league. Then you top all of that off with a QB whose best years are far behind him and looks like a square peg in a round hole in this offense, and you get the trash we see in front of us every Sunday.

 

[stephens44]

If we had a COMPETENT QB who could consistently make NFL throws, we probably wouldn't be having these conversations. This bargain basement approach to talent has come home to the Pats in the worst way this year. The front office needs to be realistic about finding "the guy" this off season and open up the damn wallet. If that means making room by cutting ties with other high priced talent, so be it. You can't compete in this league without a franchise QB, and we currently don't have one. The brain trust pursued one this offseason with a "hope" plan instead of targeting their guy and going and getting him (should have been Brady).

 

[Kdo5]

I don’t want to make many excuses but let’s face it. Josh has straight garbage to work with. He has tried to make it work with some creative plays over the past two seasons but you can only do so much.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

Look at Chris Hogan. A poorer talent is fine when he’s getting covered by a number 3 or 4 cornerback because it’s easier. That’s how UDFA’s get production. It’s why Byrd is occasionally open here. But someone like Harry and Edelman can just get iced out of games going against the top guys

Yeah True but it is Not easy for a UDFA to play against a Nummer 3/4 cb. Look at the DB they would face when they play against us. It should be Hard for them. We need to target our guys like Harry Meyers Asiasi more. Run the Ball and then use Play Action, short passes to these guys. For example Harry with his Size should get routes where he can use his body to get in Front of the DB. I don't blame McD alone. Talent is Not really There and QB play is Not good as well

 

[luuked]

The brain trust pursued one this offseason with a "hope" plan instead of targeting their guy and going and getting him (should have been Brady).

Even with Brady the offense would have looked similarly ineffective as last year. The only difference would have been even less cap space and/or fewer pieces on defense. What they needed was the 2018 version of Newton before TJ Watt ended his season.

And for 2.5 games it looked like they might have gotten that.

 

[JayNM]

I wanna talk about Erhardt-Perkins system here, specifically, how the EP system is actually a DETRIMENT to our poor receiving corps

We do not have the pieces necessary to make good use of this system, right now. We do not have players that can fit multiple spots and play multiple sets. Even our RBs, who are the stronget position skill we have, are suddenly faltering whenever they go to the line

why is that?

Well, The most obvious answer is depth of playing field. As of now, we do not have any 10+ plus threats. None. Gronk isnt running seams, Dorsett isnt being a decent 3rd guy that can stretch the field (and I thought he was easily repleceable, so Im not even escaping judgment here)

But here is a thought that has been roaming in mind for awhile now

The most innovative OCs out there are going very far from "disguising" plays, most of time. They show the adversary their packages and, through designs, they get open space. You can see it before, how many trips and bunch formations we face, how many cross pattern routes, In & outs in paralel work against us, or whatever you want to call it.

McDaniels, whom i think was the biggest beneficiary of Brady, is "handicaped", in my opinion, to this directive. The EP system doesnt work well on non-orthodox packages, it was created to disguise "simple" formations. We have a desperate need to adapt.

So, where am i getting at? I think McDaniels is far behind the times for awhile now. Its not that EP system CANT get utility out of creative use of personnel, but at some point the coaching staff (and McDaniels is the main responsible for the O) needs to realize that whatever is happening on offense IS NOT WORKING.

Its not only this year. Its not only the players.

We wont have Tom Brady to minimize receiving woes anymore.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Even with Brady the offense would have looked similarly ineffective as last year. The only difference would have been even less cap space and/or fewer pieces on defense. What they needed was the 2018 version of Newton before TJ Watt ended his season.

And for 2.5 games it looked like they might have gotten that.

Newton doesn't fit into this offense. If Cam is going to be our QB going forward, they are going to have to overhaul the whole offense....

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Josh's stock as a sought after HC has plummeted because of the Patriots execrable offensive performance AND with TFB lighting it up in Tamper. Football mavens will over react and give 100% credit to TFB.

 

[1960Pats]

He had the tall task of functioning an offense post-TB12, and eyes rightfully should have been on him going into this year. So far he hasn’t been able to make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t. Is he really putting this team in a position to make the best use of players and “put them in the best position to succeed”?—or is there something else there?

So far he looks like an OC who’s only as good as his players on a given day. Wouldn’t think much if you didn’t know who he was blessed to coach under at QB previously.

The fact is, all coaches are only as good as the players they have. That's always been the case. When Josh had Tebow he sucked but with Brady he was brilliant.

Btw, I can see the narrative changing. All of a sudden, now that the offense is struggling, it's about Josh but not Belichick even though Bill is still the one calling the shots.

 

[luuked]

Newton doesn't fit into this offense. If Cam is going to be our QB going forward, they are going to have to overhaul the whole offense....

To me it seems like you are thinking of our offense as a fixed thing.

To me the offense has long been held back by Brady from evolving to where the modern passing game is going. And don't get me wrong TB12 was exceptional in his niche but the era of pure pocket passers is coming to an end. Partly because of more athletic QBs popping up and partly because of rule changes.

Newton in his 2018 campaign -- which looked a lot like what he was able to pull off in the Seattle game -- would have been a nice placeholder step into that future direction. He would have certainly not been the future but a good transitional QB to have while developing younger picks while still competing.

But if he can't get out of his funk against the Bills and we see a similarly impotent offense again he won't start many more games after that.

 

[IllegalContact]

he's nowhere...........this team is in a transitional phase, and they'll be pulling up weeds until they start seeing growth

 

[SHOWTIME15]

To me it seems like you are thinking of our offense as a fixed thing.

To me the offense has long been held back by Brady from evolving to where the modern passing game is going. And don't get me wrong TB12 was exceptional in his niche but the era of pure pocket passers is coming to an end. Partly because of more athletic QBs popping up and partly because of rule changes.

Newton in his 2018 campaign -- which looked a lot like what he was able to pull off in the Seattle game -- would have been a nice placeholder step into that future direction. He would have certainly not been the future but a good transitional QB to have while developing younger picks while still competing.

But if he can't get out of his funk against the Bills and we see a similarly impotent offense again he won't start many more games after that.

I don't think our offense has evolved yet, that's the thing. It's still stuck in the TB12 era. And Cam does not fit in well with this type of receiving corps that thrives on the short passing game. He's always been a chunk yard type QB that throws to the open guy down the field as opposed to throwing it to where the receiver is supposed to be. On the other hand, Arians has TB12 essentially playing in the NE offense...I don't see a whole lot of "no risk it, no biscuit" stuff in Tampa, and they are doing just fine.

 

[203Pat]

I have never been as high on Josh as some and as low on Josh as others. I don’t think he has ever done anything without the greatest quarterback of all time but that being said he was able to tailor the offense to Brady's strengths and was usually good at adjusting on the fly. Drawing up plays mid-game, setting up plays based on prior plays called are some of the things I think Josh does well. That being said I think Josh likes to get too cute sometimes and frequently goes to the well one too many times. Also I am not sure how much say he has had in personnel, if any, but if he does than he deserves an F the same way Bill does.

 

[Tottie]

The fact is, all coaches are only as good as the players they have. That's always been the case. When Josh had Tebow he sucked but with Brady he was brilliant.

Btw, I can see the narrative changing. All of a sudden, now that the offense is struggling, it's about Josh but not Belichick even though Bill is still the one calling the shots.

This. Having Brady or Mahomes or Manning is like playing poker without the bad beats. Our game plan for 20 years was be in better shape and drag this thing out for 60 mins. They will be tired and we have the best closer in the world. I don't like Josh though.

 

[Kontradiction]

To me it seems like you are thinking of our offense as a fixed thing.

To me the offense has long been held back by Brady from evolving to where the modern passing game is going. And don't get me wrong TB12 was exceptional in his niche but the era of pure pocket passers is coming to an end. Partly because of more athletic QBs popping up and partly because of rule changes.

Newton in his 2018 campaign -- which looked a lot like what he was able to pull off in the Seattle game -- would have been a nice placeholder step into that future direction. He would have certainly not been the future but a good transitional QB to have while developing younger picks while still competing.

But if he can't get out of his funk against the Bills and we see a similarly impotent offense again he won't start many more games after that.

Yikes.

 

[luuked]

I don't think our offense has evolved yet, that's the thing. It's still stuck in the TB12 era. And Cam does not fit in well with this type of receiving corps that thrives on the short passing game. He's always been a chunk yard type QB that throws to the open guy down the field as opposed to throwing it to where the receiver is supposed to be. On the other hand, Arians has TB12 essentially playing in the NE offense...I don't see a whole lot of "no risk it, no biscuit" stuff in Tampa, and they are doing just fine.

I don't think they had the time to evolve into anything. They have shown signs of implementing read option and RPOs but mostly on a surface level (i.e. when taken away there is no zig or zag to counter the opponents which is usually the thing McDaniels does best).

They signed Newton at the end of June and then had a minimalist version of camp without any preseason games or joined practices where after having no other workouts through Spring/Summer they installed the basics of the offense. This got them through the first 2-3 weeks of the year and then everything grinded to a halt for the next 2-3 weeks due to the COVID break.

They had 4 or 5 practices in the entirety of October while being further behind than ever before. Outside of ST and the secondary there is barely any unit that can build on continuity from the past. Again -- and I can't stress this enough -- a week of practice right now consists of virtual meetings, 2 practices and a walkthrough. That is essentially 50% of the time the staff gets in pre COVID times.

Add in a QB that is only throwing to one side of the field and is mentally a bit shot to the point that he is chasing big plays to make up for previous mistakes and it is a cluster**** that produces 3-4 turnovers a game.

That doesn't mean that there is no way out of this. They can try to scale back and focus hard on what they do well -- i.e. the run game -- and try to sprinkle in high percentage throws on screens, boots or the occasional play action to rebuild his confidence and stop the bleeding. Of course this comes at a price of not leveraging the potential that is there and which we have seen been accessed at times in the first 3 weeks but you gotta start somewhere.

Maybe they just need to take a step back and turn those virtual Wednesday meetings into actual practices. I don't know but it seems obvious to me that the coaching staff has been consistently running out of time to prepare the team for a game ever since the COVID break.

 

[neuronet]

We need a new OC. McDaniels is terrible without Brady. He was terrible in St Louis, worst offense in the league. He crashed and burned in Denver. Basically Brady covered for him. McD looks terrible without Brady. Zero skill players developed since O'Brien developed Edelman and Gronk. James White developed himself. Scar developed linemen. That's it. This looks so much like McDaniels' 2011 league worst St Louis Rams offense which was also last in TE receptions. Pats in 2019 and 2020 so far also dead last in total TE receptions.

.

Just to be clear: he was not good with Brady, but having Brady was like having an actor turn a crappy script into magic. It also doesn't help that there is so little talent to work with.

 

[borg]

Every year, a half dozen teams have the talent to win it all, and when Josh has had talent to work with, his offenses have outscored the opposition many more times than not, while the coaches of the other talented rosters had little to show.
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Evaluating coaches is an exercise in subjectivity

Are Pete Carroll and his OC great offensive geniuses because their QB can scramble then heave 60 bombs to WRs who make one handed circus catches? Not in my book.

I give highest marks to OCs who successfully execute highly choreographed plays, like screen passes, one after the other while baffling defenses with constant new looks. (KC is the current gold standard)

Remember the days when Josh's NE offense would change weaponry after every play giving no time for defenses to get comfortable.
Flawlessly choreographed execution....the trademark of a great coach....and Josh was positioning those players and pulling those levers.

These days, his weaponry is beyond limited as is the condensed play sheet he must utilize given the harsh realities of the roster he must work with.
Sony's on the field===>Sony runs the ball.
Red zone opportunity====>Cam runs
Pass play, where's Edelman?
Harry: Where do I lineup ?
Other than that, the cupboards are pretty bare.

Josh has been given an inaccurate QB, pass catchers (WRs & TEs) that belong on practice squads, and a pandemic depleted roster.
It is what it is
Don't expect chicken salad from this chicken sh*t
And don't blame the OC who has delivered and delivered, even with half chicken sh*t playmakers.

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That being said....I liked Charlie better....... though the NFL was a far different league back then and comparing NE OCs is not necessarily an apples to apples comparison