Where’s Josh McDaniels fall within all of this?

[SHOWTIME15]

I don't think they had the time to evolve into anything. They have shown signs of implementing read option and RPOs but mostly on a surface level (i.e. when taken away there is no zig or zag to counter the opponents which is usually the thing McDaniels does best).

They signed Newton at the end of June and then had a minimalist version of camp without any preseason games or joined practices where after having no other workouts through Spring/Summer they installed the basics of the offense. This got them through the first 2-3 weeks of the year and then everything grinded to a halt for the next 2-3 weeks due to the COVID break.

They had 4 or 5 practices in the entirety of October while being further behind than ever before. Outside of ST and the secondary there is barely any unit that can build on continuity from the past. Again -- and I can't stress this enough -- a week of practice right now consists of virtual meetings, 2 practices and a walkthrough. That is essentially 50% of the time the staff gets in pre COVID times.

Add in a QB that is only throwing to one side of the field and is mentally a bit shot to the point that he is chasing big plays to make up for previous mistakes and it is a cluster**** that produces 3-4 turnovers a game.

That doesn't mean that there is no way out of this. They can try to scale back and focus hard on what they do well -- i.e. the run game -- and try to sprinkle in high percentage throws on screens, boots or the occasional play action to rebuild his confidence and stop the bleeding. Of course this comes at a price of not leveraging the potential that is there and which we have seen been accessed at times in the first 3 weeks but you gotta start somewhere.

Maybe they just need to take a step back and turn those virtual Wednesday meetings into actual practices. I don't know but it seems obvious to me that the coaching staff has been consistently running out of time to prepare the team for a game ever since the COVID break.

I agree that more practice is needed for Cam and the offense. It's a timing offense that needs reps for it to work. We now know why Brady insisted on practicing with his teammates before TC even started. Cam got thrown onto the team at the last minute - perhaps Belichick is to blame for bringing in Cam so late when he knew he needed a QB since March.

The defense, on the other hand, is missing Hightower's leadership. Still, last night's performance was inexcusable for the D.

 

[luuked]

Cam got thrown onto the team at the last minute - perhaps Belichick is to blame for bringing in Cam so late when he knew he needed a QB since March.

I get your point but it's kinda a Catch 22. We would have not gotten him for the price his camp was asking for early in the offseason (because at that point we were tight against the cap), and only when that price came down a cheap deal was struck.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

I get your point but it's kinda a Catch 22. We would have not gotten him for the price his camp was asking for early in the offseason (because at that point we were tight against the cap), and only when that price came down a cheap deal was struck.

Yeah, we have too many high priced players on this team that probably would have prevented us from signing Cam earlier. And not only that, because of this covid crap, there was no way to evaluate him medically at the time.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

He SUCKs at evaluation of WR and TE talent

drafted Richard Quinn in the second round lol

 

[BelizePats]

The fact is, all coaches are only as good as the players they have. That's always been the case. When Josh had Tebow he sucked but with Brady he was brilliant.

Btw, I can see the narrative changing. All of a sudden, now that the offense is struggling, it's about Josh but not Belichick even though Bill is still the one calling the shots.

And picking the players.

 

[luuked]

I wanna talk about Erhardt-Perkins system here, specifically, how the EP system is actually a DETRIMENT to our poor receiving corps

We do not have the pieces necessary to make good use of this system, right now. We do not have players that can fit multiple spots and play multiple sets. Even our RBs, who are the stronget position skill we have, are suddenly faltering whenever they go to the line

why is that?

Well, The most obvious answer is depth of playing field. As of now, we do not have any 10+ plus threats. None. Gronk isnt running seams, Dorsett isnt being a decent 3rd guy that can stretch the field (and I thought he was easily repleceable, so Im not even escaping judgment here)

But here is a thought that has been roaming in mind for awhile now

The most innovative OCs out there are going very far from "disguising" plays, most of time. They show the adversary their packages and, through designs, they get open space. You can see it before, how many trips and bunch formations we face, how many cross pattern routes, In & outs in paralel work against us, or whatever you want to call it.

McDaniels, whom i think was the biggest beneficiary of Brady, is "handicaped", in my opinion, to this directive. The EP system doesnt work well on non-orthodox packages, it was created to disguise "simple" formations. We have a desperate need to adapt.

So, where am i getting at? I think McDaniels is far behind the times for awhile now. Its not that EP system CANT get utility out of creative use of personnel, but at some point the coaching staff (and McDaniels is the main responsible for the O) needs to realize that whatever is happening on offense IS NOT WORKING.

Its not only this year. Its not only the players.

We wont have Tom Brady to minimize receiving woes anymore.

All this talk about the system and whatnot is so pointless when you have three games with 3+ turnovers and see situations like this regularly:



Lets have a discussion about the pros/cons of EP when we get to a point where our skill players actually dont get open in reality and not just in the mind of some fans.

 

[JayNM]

All this talk about the system and whatnot is so pointless when you have three games with 3+ turnovers and see situations like this regularly:



Lets have a discussion about the pros/cons of EP when we get to a point where our skill players actually dont get open in reality and not just in the mind of some fans.

Mutual information - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[archstanton543]

I don’t want to make many excuses but let’s face it. Josh has straight garbage to work with. He has tried to make it work with some creative plays over the past two seasons but you can only do so much.

And he did actually get busted filming other team's practices when with the Broncos.

 

[luuked]

Mutual information - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There is close to zero overlap between your weird excursion into EP and the fact that we have open players (thanks to EP and McD) that are just not seen by Newton.

But then again it was ironic that you went after EP in the first place when it was one of the reasons Brady was able to be that successful with role players because that's how they got to be so open regularly.

 

[luuked]

k

heres the part i wanted u to read

"In probability theory and information theory, the mutual information (MI) of two random variables is a measure of the mutual dependence between the two variables."

first sentence. Too bad for u u cant understand

Like I said there is next to zero overlap between you blaming EP as a proxy to whine about McD and the reality on the field.

Players run their concepts as they are asked to by the OC and they are open significantly more often than not.

 

[luuked]

lol

u r simple, arent u?

I meant that maybe both things are more correlated in between than you give credit to.

Not really. I am just directly answering you that looking at the cut ups Chatham, Lazar et al posted last week of open players all over the place and what some of the beat guys have posted so far from yesterday the issues are not particularly correlated to EP at all. In fact I'd argue that running our offense like that is a net positive because players clearly get open.

But please explain to me how EP is so complicated and our players are just not up to it and yet when they run their concepts it looks more often than not like this:




I have asked you multiple times now to actually engage in a discussion which you are not willing to have for whatever reason. I guess you don't have anything factual to say.

 

[scott99]

I'm no X's and O's guy but if the offense is too complex for most skill players to pick up, how about simplifying it? Because surely some production from a simplified offense is better than no production from the much vaunted McDaniels offense?

 

[NG Pats Fan]

It’s quite clear McDaniels is awful at evaluating talent for skill position. He prefers Boy Scouts over playmakers. His micro managing style is not popular with players

 

[scott99]

Newton doesn't fit into this offense. If Cam is going to be our QB going forward, they are going to have to overhaul the whole offense....

I don’t think Cam is ever going to be great again, no matter what team he’s on. He’s like Michael Vick 2 years before he retired. He can make a good play with his feet, but if you’re behind, you’re not going to come back with him throwing. He’s just bad. Thankfully he will only be here for the remainder of this year.

I think there needs to be a complete overhaul in “The Patriot Way” when it comes to drafting & coaching. If they never admit that they aren’t good at drafting, and changes need to be made in the draft process, we will be stuck with Belichick the GM until he gets fired/gets retired. They need to bring in talent evaluators that will expand their draft board. The rumor is their draft board is quite small and rigid. That’s ridiculous.

Also, they need to draft a franchise QB in round one. Then the rest of the picks need to be EXPLOSIVE offensive weapons. And they need to use them.

As far as coaching, they need to be able to integrate their talent as rookies. Enough of this rookie redshirt ******** that has been around forever. They need to make it so the rookies can be put in a position to succeed right away, need to be able to contribute. That might entail making changes in the playbook. They are wasting draft picks on TEs that they barely use or target.

 

[Vindicate]

I posted this Q in a thread maybe two weeks back and I still haven't moved on from wondering...

Given the recent offensive woes, how do you view McDaniels? While I'm hesitant to say "Brady made Belichick," I'm certainly willing to believe that Brady made McDaniels. Which is a recent change in opinion.

What's the process through which you go to grade an OC? How has McDaniels lived up to your grade?

Is this purely a personnel issue or is it lazy game-planning? How do you tell the difference?

What is McDaniel's weakness and how did Brady mask that?

Bonus question: who is the offensive guru of the league now? And what is the trajectory of McDaniels at this point?

As always, big fan of the X's and O's, even if I don't understand them all that well. Hopefully this can create a decent discussion - let's keep arguments on the low (I'm a big fan of discourse but would like to refrain from 'youre dumb and I hate you' posts.)

Hot takes are cool, just as long as they're not purely inflammatory lol.

 

[Rob0729]

This seems to be more of an execution issue than a scheme issue. When even Edelman can't get open, that isn't on McDaniels. When Cam Newton is holding onto the ball too long or throwing ducks, it isn't McDaniels' fault.

McDaniels isn't blameless for the offensive woes, but he has nothing to work with at the movement.

 

[Vindicate]

This seems to be more of an execution issue than a scheme issue. When even Edelman can't get open, that isn't on McDaniels. When Cam Newton is holding onto the ball too long or throwing ducks, it isn't McDaniels' fault.

McDaniels isn't blameless for the offensive woes, but he has nothing to work with at the movement.

I tend to lean in this direction, I'm having a hard time getting a read on him right now given the personnel. I do think there might be credence to Brady's effect on him, but it's also kind of hard to tell right now.

 

[Jangles]

Imagine you’re a chef. A pretty decent one, and your restaurants manager tells you he’s found you a new supplier for your food.

Then he drags in a trash can from an Olive Garden and says here is your new supplier.

How well do you think that’s going to go?

 

[KDPPatsfan85]

 

[LuRkeR1978]

Something, something spoiled fanbase?