When did Brady, become Brady, and Bill become IBWT? Just an open discussion to see where people stand.

[SHOWTIME15]

Remember when Bill trashed Josh Allen before MNF and Josh Allen has bent him over ever since? Good argument

Using Brady’s arrogance as an argument for Bill is pretty rich

When did I defend Belichick for anything he said?

What's worse, Bill talking trash about Josh Allen before a MNF game, or Brady talking trash before the most important game in NFL history?

 

[All3Phases]

When did I defend Belichick for anything he said?

What's worse, Bill talking trash about Josh Allen before a MNF game, or Brady talking trash before the most important game in NFL history?

What was the point of your argument? Or was it just diverting to your normal Brady hate? What’s worse, being arrogant or being arrogant? You made the argument

 

[NE_Zealot]

You know who had only 1 touchdown pass in the biggest game in NFL history? Your boy Timmy in 42. It was Brady who stopped himself from beating the Giants in two super bowls, despite laughing at the Giants D before one of them, and then he fumbled the Eagles game away. Would you like me to bring up the 10 turnovers Brady was responsible for in all the super bowls? Babe Ruth my ***. More like Lebron.

If I remember right Brady put us ahead late in XLII (on a bum ankle facing Osi and Strahan bookends) and then helmet catch occurred.

XLVI the Gronk injury in the title game killed us, we had the worst pass defense in the league and still got there. If Gronk was healthy I believe we win that one. You want to blame #12 go ahead

LII we aren’t in that game at all without Brady throwing for 500 yards and 3 TDs. Our defense was trash so I can’t blame Brady for the strip-sack, Eagles D made a play.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

If I remember right Brady put us ahead late in XLII (on a bum ankle facing Osi and Strahan bookends) and then helmet catch occurred.

It's a 60 minute game. You don't show up at the beginning and the end and say you did your job. Brady was successful on 2 of 9 drives that day.

XLVI the Gronk injury in the title game ki

He won a super bowl without Gronk in it.

Our defense was trash so I can’t blame Brady for the strip-sack, Eagles D made a play.

A QB's job is to hold onto the ball.

 

[TheRainMaker]

It's a 60 minute game. You don't show up at the beginning and the end and say you did your job. Brady was successful on 2 of 9 drives that day.

As many INT's the defense dropped and a missed fumble recovery they couldn't haul in, all they had to do was stop the Giants on the final drive. They don't get to say "well...at least we held them down most of the game". Both sides of the ball choked that day. Coaching choked as well.

 

[crawhammer]

When did I defend Belichick for anything he said?

What's worse, Bill talking trash about Josh Allen before a MNF game, or Brady talking trash before the most important game in NFL history?

Let's face it. You're lying. Brady didn't even talk trash before that Super Bowl. He was asked a question about a comment from a Giants player and replied by making light of the comments. Really, big fu*king deal.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Montana's career as a Niner was over after the 1990 NFCCG when Leonard Marshall knocked him out. It was Steve Young's team from that point on.

Not Joe's fault.

He played extremely well in KC.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

It's fair. I'm giving you factual numbers. As far as self-destructing, what do you call missing a makeable winning FG on the game's final play?

The k-gun offense had four shots at a Super Bowl and they only got close in the first one. They got completely dismantled by the defenses in the final three.

I'm sorry, I think the evidence is clear that BB is an outstanding DC

 

[crawhammer]

I'm sorry, I think the evidence is clear that BB is an outstanding DC

I agree with you. That's not the point.

 

[1960Pats]

Studs on defense, yeah with the Giants.

But why weren't those studs stellar before Belichick came on board? 1996 Patriots, 1998 Jets, 2001 Patriots.

It's pretty curious coincidence

Defense is clearly Bill's area of expertise and is a major part of what has made him so good for so long. But he's still just a coach and needs good players to succeed.

 

[Tunescribe]

Defense is clearly Bill's area of expertise and is a major part of what has made him so good for so long. But he's still just a coach and needs good players to succeed.

And players need a good coach to succeed. Go figure!

 

[1960Pats]

I'm not referring to all-time. Just the 13-year stretch of 1985 to 1997. 6 different NFC teams won all 13 Super Bowls over that span... that's conference dominance.

I know you weren't, but I was. The AFC has kicked butt since the merger.

Keeping to the 13 year stretch, more than half of those SB wins came from two teams who were rumored to be flirting with the salary cap rules. And the head-to-head competition during that stretch was only 8-5 NFC. Hardly dominant.

But, as is the case with Tuna Crap's place in league history, we can agree to disagree and move on to better things.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

I know you weren't, but I was. The AFC has kicked butt since the merger.

Keeping to the 13 year stretch, more than half of those SB wins came from two teams who were rumored to be flirting with the salary cap rules. And the head-to-head competition during that stretch was only 8-5 NFC. Hardly dominant.

But, as is the case with Tuna Crap's place in league history, we can agree to disagree and move on to better things.

There were several factors contributing to the NFC dominance during that period, including what you pointed out.

The media lost their minds after 15 years of NFC inferiority and practical irrelevance besides the Cowboys. The fact the Giants and Bears, to name two, were actually worthy of being described as laughingstocks for two decades (unlike the Patriots) was completely ignored, just as the Broncos doing nothing in their entire history was ignored in 1977, the year after the Patriots really did have the best team in football but nobody knew or cared.

Stupidity is epidemic in the NFL. Of those ballyhooed six quarterbacks taken in the '83 draft, three were mediocre and the others were coddled, pampered and ultimately overrated.

The NFC teams deserve credit for drafting better and making better decisions. But the AFC at the same time was just dumb, including the Patriots. Starting Tony Eason?! Repeatedly!! Giving C-Mart 11 total carries?! By OC Ray Perkins of the Erhardt-Perkins offense? And Bill 'run the ball to championships' Parcells? Exiling Doug Flutie to Canada?!

The AFC had itself to blame. We could have drafted Rice (yeah, I know) among others.

 

[upstater1]

Defense is clearly Bill's area of expertise and is a major part of what has made him so good for so long. But he's still just a coach and needs good players to succeed.

The two go hand in hand really, because otherwise we'd see owners and GMs assemble teams of superstars.

For instance, I could make a case that the best game of Tom Brady's career was the 2014 Super Bowl.

At the end of that game, two coaching decisions determined the result. The first was Belichick refusing to call a timeout which goaded and forced Carroll into throwing the ball on 3rd down (Carroll only belatedly realized that there was not enough time to run it 4x). Belichick had also prepared the team for the passing play he believed the Seahawks were going to use.

This is an example of players and coaches making a huge difference together in the biggest game of the year. Any other coach but Belichick loses that Super Bowl.

 

[BritPat]

To answer the OP's question........IMO the clutch stuff from Tom was there from SB36, if we're in any doubt although I wasn't following the team then. But his ability as a passer for me, properly came to the fore in 2004, when you look back By 2006 he was just missing someone to consistently catch the ball to challenge Manning and others in terms of passing yards and TD's. I'd argue that he's still better now than he was then, mind. Which is f*cking bonkers.

Bill - AFCCG in Pittsburgh in 2004 (well, Jan 2005 to be precise). That team proved it could go anywhere in any circumstances and beat anyone that night. The D was incredible especially.

 

[Ivan]

For me it was when they beat Philly for #3.

Jim Nantz claimed before they game started that he had it in good authority that Belichick was retiring if they won #3, that being tied with Lombardi would be all he needed to round out his career. What a douche.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

.IMO the clutch stuff from Tom was there from SB36

Before that.

Tom was very good in the HOF preseason game as a rookie.

When he led us back against the Chargers, he was totally clutch.

The second Jets game he played like a seasoned veteran.

As I've said before, Weis ran the ball. Picking up Smith from the Bills was crucial; but just as crucial is we let him run it. Did we run it more to protect the kid? Probably.

BTW Who's better, Brock Purdy or Bailey Zappe? IMO the latter.

 

[pazrul72]

For Bill it was early, that 2001 team had no business being in the playoffs never mind the Super Bowl. I would argue it remains the greatest coaching job in NFL history. Just getting a bunch of no name guys to buy in and play tough, physical, blue collar lunch pail football. So many things had to go right and the margin for error was practically zero and yet they delivered “it’s good, it’s good! The patriots are champions, the patriots are Super Bowl champions! the best team in the national football league”. Still gives me goosebumps everytime I hear that iconic call.

Brady was later, for a long time I undervalued how clutch he is. I thought he was just a cog in the machine thru 2004 and was just asked to not make mistakes and deliver 3-4 big throws a game. 2006 was when I started going yeah this guy is more then just top 5 of his era. 2007 cemented it for me that given the pieces and the opportunities other QBs *cough* manning *cough* were being given to be the centerpiece and driver of the offense Brady was even better then them. After that it was just a question of how much better and at this point with 10 trips to the SB and 7 rings it’s clear he has all but lapped the competition with anyone who says he is not the GOAT needing their rectum examined for headupitis.

Thing that bothers me in all the Bill versus Brady talk and comparisons is it can’t be one versus the other. No way in hell Brady becomes Brady without those early defenses and the coaching he got in New England. No way in hell does BB get 6 rings without Brady going psycho Tom in all those key gotta have it moments. They were the perfect storm, Ying to Yang, and something that will never again happen in our lifetimes. I’m just happy I got to witness it all And impressed they kept it together for 20 years. I don’t blame either of them for the split as it felt like at the time, for the first time, they had understandable different objectives. Brady knew he only had a year or two left and needed a team around him. He didn’t have the time to have a down year to reset the cap. BB had good reason to question if the 42 year old, injured, lack of play makers, lack of fire Brady was the new norm? It’s easy to say what would Brady being doing with the weapons we have now, he’s way better then Mac, without keeping in mind the only reason they got those weapons was the reset year that was supposed to be cancelled for Covid.

I’m a patriot fan first and foremost and while it ended up not working out so far I support the decision they made. With the information they had, it made sense to do what they did. I will root for every player wearing a flying Elvis to be an All Pro and win every match up. I am also in awe of Tom Brady, he has brought me so much joy, given me so many heart attacks, and is an amazing human being I use as a teaching moment for my kids. As long as he isn’t going against the Patriots i wish him to do well. Not sure why those two positions have to be separate and controversial.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

'01 Patriots are an underrated team. Like the '88 Pats, had lots of veterans with playoff and Super Bowl experience, excellent young rookies, solid running game, very good defense.

And a young, promising quarterback in his first extended starting opportunity, who made the plays when they had to be made, separating himself already from the pack of run of the mill QB's around the league with much more experience being paid much more money, who never could make them.

 

[Guts]

For Bill it was early, that 2001 team had no business being in the playoffs never mind the Super Bowl. I would argue it remains the greatest coaching job in NFL history. Just getting a bunch of no name guys to buy in and play tough, physical, blue collar lunch pail football. So many things had to go right and the margin for error was practically zero and yet they delivered “it’s good, it’s good! The patriots are champions, the patriots are Super Bowl champions! the best team in the national football league”. Still gives me goosebumps everytime I hear that iconic call.

Brady was later, for a long time I undervalued how clutch he is. I thought he was just a cog in the machine thru 2004 and was just asked to not make mistakes and deliver 3-4 big throws a game. 2006 was when I started going yeah this guy is more then just top 5 of his era. 2007 cemented it for me that given the pieces and the opportunities other QBs *cough* manning *cough* were being given to be the centerpiece and driver of the offense Brady was even better then them. After that it was just a question of how much better and at this point with 10 trips to the SB and 7 rings it’s clear he has all but lapped the competition with anyone who says he is not the GOAT needing their rectum examined for headupitis.

Thing that bothers me in all the Bill versus Brady talk and comparisons is it can’t be one versus the other. No way in hell Brady becomes Brady without those early defenses and the coaching he got in New England. No way in hell does BB get 6 rings without Brady going psycho Tom in all those key gotta have it moments. They were the perfect storm, Ying to Yang, and something that will never again happen in our lifetimes. I’m just happy I got to witness it all And impressed they kept it together for 20 years. I don’t blame either of them for the split as it felt like at the time, for the first time, they had understandable different objectives. Brady knew he only had a year or two left and needed a team around him. He didn’t have the time to have a down year to reset the cap. BB had good reason to question if the 42 year old, injured, lack of play makers, lack of fire Brady was the new norm? It’s easy to say what would Brady being doing with the weapons we have now, he’s way better then Mac, without keeping in mind the only reason they got those weapons was the reset year that was supposed to be cancelled for Covid.

I’m a patriot fan first and foremost and while it ended up not working out so far I support the decision they made. With the information they had, it made sense to do what they did. I will root for every player wearing a flying Elvis to be an All Pro and win every match up. I am also in awe of Tom Brady, he has brought me so much joy, given me so many heart attacks, and is an amazing human being I use as a teaching moment for my kids. As long as he isn’t going against the Patriots i wish him to do well. Not sure why those two positions have to be separate and controversial.