When did Brady, become Brady, and Bill become IBWT? Just an open discussion to see where people stand.

[crawhammer]

The AFC has never been the inferior conference. They have a season's record of 32-20-2 vs the NFC and have won 99 more games overall. They even caught up in SB wins in spite of the 13 game run, but lost the last two to go behind again. Even now, the NFC won the head to head competition by only 2 games in spite of playing 50 of the 80 games at home this year.

The NFC had two things going for it in the days of the 13 game SB winning streak. #1 was that they were top heavy and that may have been because of #2, that two of the teams that accounted for much of that streak (SF and Dallas) were playing games with the salary cap.

I'm not referring to all-time. Just the 13-year stretch of 1985 to 1997. 6 different NFC teams won all 13 Super Bowls over that span... that's conference dominance.

 

[crawhammer]

No - I don't want to know. You're good

What's your top 4 head coaches?

Top 4 NFL Head Coaches of the Super Bowl Era (not necessarily in order but it's how I would lean at the moment)

Bill Belichick

The resumé is undeniable. Namely 9 Conference Championships and 6 Super Bowl rings... both are the most ever. His knowledge of the game and his awareness from the sideline are impressive. His two greatest achievements as a head coach are SB 36 and SB 53. The obvious knock on Belichick is his lack of success as a head coach without Brady. The SB 52 debacle is his low point. Belichick will likely catch Shula for all-time combined wins but I he may not catch Shula in regular season wins. But he will surpass Dan Reeves in regular season losses.

Joe Gibbs

Gibbs has the greatest accomplishment of any head coach in the history of the NFL: 3 Super Bowl championships with 3 different starting quarterbacks (none hall of famers and two were pretty much garbage). He has a slightly better postseason winning percentage than Belichick. And he has the highest postseason winning percentage of all head coaches with 15 or more games.

Don Shula

His resumé is also undeniable. All-time leader in wins, both regular season and combined. He's 4th all-time in losses but he has at least 78 more wins than the 3 head coaches with more losses. Of course he's got the only undefeated season in the history of the league. And the back-to-back Super Bowl championships. My big knock on Shula is he never won a Super Bowl with Dan Marino who was an absolute phenom of his era.

Bill Parcells

Parcells is a polarizing figure but there isn't a head coach that I admire more than Parcells. He turned four different franchises into winners and postseason contenders, which is a phenomenal achievement. He won 2 Super Bowls with 2 different quarterbacks. Regarding his time in New England, he rejuvenated fan interest and took over a team that had pathetically struggled under Rod Rust and **** MacPherson. He made the team relevant again and brought them to a Super Bowl but couldn't overcome an incompetent quarterback performance.

Honorable Mentions: Chuck Noll, Bill Walsh and Tom Landry

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Top 4 NFL Head Coaches of the Super Bowl Era (not necessarily in order but it's how I would lean at the moment)

Bill Belichick

The resumé is undeniable. Namely 9 Conference Championships and 6 Super Bowl rings... both are the most ever. His knowledge of the game and his awareness from the sideline are impressive. His two greatest achievements as a head coach are SB 36 and SB 53. The obvious knock on Belichick is his lack of success as a head coach without Brady. The SB 52 debacle is his low point. Belichick will likely catch Shula for all-time combined wins but I he may not catch Shula in regular season wins. But he will surpass Dan Reeves in regular season losses.

Joe Gibbs

Gibbs has the greatest accomplishment of any head coach in the history of the NFL: 3 Super Bowl championships with 3 different starting quarterbacks (none hall of famers and two were pretty much garbage). He has a slightly better postseason winning percentage than Belichick. And he has the highest postseason winning percentage of all head coaches with 15 or more games.

Don Shula

His resumé is also undeniable. All-time leader in wins, both regular season and combined. He's 4th all-time in losses but he has at least 78 more wins than the 3 head coaches with more losses. Of course he's got the only undefeated season in the history of the league. And the back-to-back Super Bowl championships. My big knock on Shula is he never won a Super Bowl with Dan Marino who was an absolute phenom of his era.

Bill Parcells

Parcells is a polarizing figure but there isn't a head coach that I admire more than Parcells. He turned four different franchises into winners and postseason contenders, which is a phenomenal achievement. He won 2 Super Bowls with 2 different quarterbacks. Regarding his time in New England, he rejuvenated fan interest and took over a team that had pathetically struggled under Rod Rust and **** MacPherson. He made the team relevant again and brought them to a Super Bowl but couldn't overcome an incompetent quarterback performance.

Honorable Mentions: Chuck Noll, Bill Walsh and Tom Landry

This is how hypocritical and stupid you are. You keep mentioning Belichick's record without Brady, and yet you say Bill Parcells is a great coach yet fail to realize Parcells' mediocre 44-47 record without Belichick.

And how can you not include possibly the best coach of them all in your list, Vince Lombardi?

 

[crawhammer]

This is how hypocritical and stupid you are. You keep mentioning Belichick's record without Brady, and yet you say Bill Parcells is a great coach yet fail to realize Parcells' mediocre 44-47 record without Belichick.

And how can you not include possibly the best coach of them all in your list, Vince Lombardi?

Where's your quarterbacks list? I get it, you don't want to further embarrass yourself.

Parcells in his prime, there's no other head coach I would want more than him. Parcells gave Belichick opportunities. Including taking him back under his wing when Belichick's coaching career was in shambles.

Like I said, Parcells turned four different franchises into winners and postseason contender. Including Dallas who had been in 5-11 Dave Campo hell for three years straight. Parcells got them in the postseason year one (no BB).

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Where's your quarterbacks list? I get it, you don't want to further embarrass yourself.

Parcells in his prime, there's no other head coach I would want more than him. Parcells gave Belichick opportunities. Including taking him back under his wing when Belichick's coaching career was in shambles.

Like I said, Parcells turned four different franchises into winners and postseason contender. Including Dallas who had been in 5-11 Dave Campo hell for three years straight. Parcells got them in the postseason year one (no BB).

44-47 without Belichick

Sound like a mediocre coach to me, according to your logic

 

[crawhammer]

44-47 without Belichick

Sound like a mediocre coach to me, according to your logic

The QB is more important than the HC. Certainly a DC isn't anywhere near the importance of the QB. Belichick with Brady is not comparable with Parcells with Belichick.

QB > HC > DC

 

[venecol]

@Ian I'm telling you, lock these two in a sub-forum or thread. They'll go on for days and weeks. There's probably a Guiness Book record they can break. Or you can sell tickets.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

The team was 5-13 before Brady became the starter. From there they went 14-3 and won the Super Bowl on Brady's game-winning drive. Brady became Brady in 2001. Belichick was 41-57 as a head coach before Brady became his starter. Brady gave Belichick 19 straight seasons of well above .500 records. Belichick became Belichick when Brady became Brady. He's reverted back to pre-Brady Belichick after Brady left. Brady remained Brady. IBWT was never a real thing (for me).

There were many strategic decisions I totally disagreed with during our run; we unsurprisingly lost and also still won a lot.

Bill's regressed because he's older, and his experience and intuitiveness is now exceeded by his stubbornness and lack of determination to get back to the top.

The one time we beat the Bills was not due to the weather, it was due to our strategy.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Bill was Bill when he stopped Montana from having 2-3 more SBs

View attachment 49042

The Niners also stopped Montana when they chose Young over him

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Brady became “Brady” to most after the 2nd Super Bowl win as he, Bill and the Pats needed to show they weren’t a fluke-Cinderella-feel good story which they were in 2001. By 2005 after their 3rd Super Bowl win, they went from the feel good team to the most hated team in the NFL.

Bill in his early days with Brady could do no wrong and that’s how the IBWT started with fans. Bill was on a hot streak with drafts, game plans and in game adjustments. Both he and Tom were already being talked about as GOAT’s after they won 3 out 4 years together.

Bill's off-season before 2001 is his best ever

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

The Bills make a routine FG and nobody is talking about Bill.

It wasn't routine at all! Norwood stunk on grass beyond 35

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Let's put this overrated narrative to rest.

Buffalo lost 4 Super Bowls in a row from 1990 to 1993.

SB 25 (loss to NYG)
371 yards of total offense
166 rushing yards
1 sack
0 turnovers
19 points
Lost by 1 point on a missed 47-yards FGA

SB 26 (loss to Washington)
283 yards of total offense
43 rushing yards
5 sacks
5 turnovers
24 points
Lost by 13 points

SB 27 (loss to Cowboys)
362 yards of total offense
108 rushing yards
4 sacks
9 turnovers
17 points
Lost by 35 points

SB 28 (loss to Cowboys)
314 yards of total offense
87 rushing yards
3 sacks
3 turnovers
13 points
Lost by 17 points

The Bills k-gun offense sucked in the Super Bowls. Jim Kelly was a complete disaster... 4 games, 2 TDs, 7 INTs, 3 FL, and 56.9 passer rating. Kelly and the k-gun offense had their best Super Bowl against Belichick's defense... most total yards, most rushing yards, fewest sacks (1), fewest turnovers (0), and merely lost by a missed FG. Buffalo had 17 turnovers in their other 3 SB losses where they were completely humiliated by the opposing defenses. So "mastermind" Bill actually shut down the Bills offense the least in those 4 games. The far more dominant defensive performances came from Washington and then Dallas twice.

The fact the Bills self-destructed in the ensuing three (Levy kinda sucked at Super Bowl game plans, like Berry) doesn't change the fact the Giants won on defense, carrying Hoss. Running game and Bahr was crucial too. Bill deserves credit; your comparison isn't fair.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

When did you personally realize that they were both the greatest that had done it? When did you know, they are both the heads of the Mt. Rushmore of the NFL? What exited you most about the end of that particular Superbowl win that made you feel like they won it for me?

Does each championship reflect differently?

Mt favorite is the 85 and 96. Because it made the hug with my Dad that much sweeter when we won.

Tom's the GOAT; for me Bill is great but not the best. When I have time I'll put up a thread on the subject.

The similarities between 1976 and 2001 are compelling. Despite what the media and most fans, even local fans, believe, the Patriots got seriously on the map with Fairbanks. And he did it despite the owner.

Pats had very good players and good teams in the 60's, 70's & 80's. They were certainly better than most; just short of upper echelon.

The false laughingstock narrative is... false.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

Tom's the GOAT; for me Bill is great but not the best. When I have time I'll put up a thread on the subject.

The similarities between 1976 and 2001 are compelling. Despite what the media and most fans, even local fans, believe, the Patriots got seriously on the map with Fairbanks. And he did it despite the owner.

Pats had very good players and good teams in the 60's, 70's & 80's. They were certainly better than most; just short of upper echelon.

The false laughingstock narrative is... false.

I agree with part of what you're saying, I've been around since the 60s and they had some good teams in the 70s and 80s, a lot of people remember the early 90s and of course the Super Bowl blowout against the Bears but the biggest problem with the way people view them is the Sullivans messing things up. The Razor man also made us look bad and if it wasn't for Orthwein buying the team and hiring Bill Parcells it would have lasted longer. All the while Bob Kraft was working his way on buying the team and turning the perception around and that's where we are today. But they did have some good years sprinkled in during the Sullivan years.

 

[Joker]

I agree with part of what you're saying, I've been around since the 60s and they had some good teams in the 70s and 80s, a lot of people remember the early 90s and of course the Super Bowl blowout against the Bears but the biggest problem with the way people view them is the Sullivans messing things up. The Razor man also made us look bad and if it wasn't for Orthwein buying the team and hiring Bill Parcells it would have lasted longer. All the while Bob Kraft was working his way on buying the team and turning the perception around and that's where we are today. But they did have some good years sprinkled in during the Sullivan years.

Heh...yeah...loved the kid taking one for dear ol' dad Sullivan...

 

[SHOWTIME15]

The Niners also stopped Montana when they chose Young over him

Montana's career as a Niner was over after the 1990 NFCCG when Leonard Marshall knocked him out. It was Steve Young's team from that point on.

 

[crawhammer]

The fact the Bills self-destructed in the ensuing three (Levy kinda sucked at Super Bowl game plans, like Berry) doesn't change the fact the Giants won on defense, carrying Hoss. Running game and Bahr was crucial too. Bill deserves credit; your comparison isn't fair.

It's fair. I'm giving you factual numbers. As far as self-destructing, what do you call missing a makeable winning FG on the game's final play?

The k-gun offense had four shots at a Super Bowl and they only got close in the first one. They got completely dismantled by the defenses in the final three.

 

[Tunescribe]

Heh...yeah...loved the kid taking one for dear ol' dad Sullivan...

Makes me laugh every time. The gigantic fist in the foreground and "concerned" onlookers. If that photo didn't win some kind of award it should have.

 

[PatsWSB47]

Montana's career as a Niner was over after the 1990 NFCCG when Leonard Marshall knocked him out. It was Steve Young's team from that point on.

Yeah they assumed Montana wouldn't come back or come back good enough. Off of IR he was activated and they put him in against Detroit in the fourth quarter and he promptly drove them and he threw a TD pass. He went on to KC and actually beat Young.

 

[All3Phases]

I point out facts about Brady all the time and you ignore it and/or make excuses for it.



Maybe, but he shouldn't have laughed at Plaxico Burress if that was the case. He looked and felt confident before the game. Remember when he didn't shake Eli's hand right before kickoff?

Remember when Bill trashed Josh Allen before MNF and Josh Allen has bent him over ever since? Good argument

Using Brady’s arrogance as an argument for Bill is pretty rich