When did Brady, become Brady, and Bill become IBWT? Just an open discussion to see where people stand.

[SHOWTIME15]

Firstly I was talking about one specific thing... that Belichick was the only DC who could figure out how to slow down the k-gun offense. It's an overstated narrative because three other successive DC's obliterated the k-gun offense in the Super Bowl (put their game plans in the HOF too!... but that would have been stupid once everyone realized the k-gun offense was inept in SB level competition). As I normally do, I tacked on some numbers to back up my argument. That's it. That's all I was talking about in that post.

You're not very bright, are you? Each of those teams that beat the Bills during the 90s other than the Giants had high octane offenses. Washington Redskins in 1991 was unbeatable with the Posse (Clark, Sanders, and Monk) and the Cowboys teams were just stacked. Belichick deliberately had to slow down the Bills offense with a bend but don't break style in order to keep the score low. That's the only chance the Giants had against the Bills.

 

[crawhammer]

"let's put this narrative to rest" got him another mute. I didn't need to read any further. @venecol said it best, the guy can't help himself. Bill's gameplan vs. Manning was brilliant. Same vs. the Rams, where he completely undressed Martz. It was all-time great coaching game plan. Martz did himself zero favors, arrogantly played right into Bill's hands. The intentional safety vs. Denver is another one. Perhaps my favorite is staring down Pete Carroll and not calling time out when everyone is screaming in the headset for him to call one. Ice in his veins. The man was considered a brilliant defensive mind long before he was getting GOAT consideration. Anyone who shuts that down is just bitter because Bill played the odds with Brady, like he did with every other player prior to. Brady just proved to be a bit more GOATy than everyone else.

Apparently you muted me, which is lame, but I'll reply anyway. You here, like Ian, go off on a tangent about Belichick-accomplishments that I wasn't even referring to in my post. I was commenting on one game in 1991. Everything you mention relates to his time as the HC for New England. There's some great stuff there, I'm not denying it. Game plans against the Rams (x2), vs Peyton Manning (too bad he couldn't stop his brother though), etc. The staring down Carroll thing is total nonsense. Who knows if Carroll even looked at Belichick at all. Not calling the timeout could have been a colossal blunder but Wilson bailed him out with a massive choke. Nice play by Malcolm but Wilson drilled that ball right into his chest.

 

[Pape]

Let's put this overrated narrative to rest.

Buffalo lost 4 Super Bowls in a row from 1990 to 1993.

SB 25 (loss to NYG)
371 yards of total offense
166 rushing yards
1 sack
0 turnovers
19 points
Lost by 1 point on a missed 47-yards FGA

SB 26 (loss to Washington)
283 yards of total offense
43 rushing yards
5 sacks
5 turnovers
24 points
Lost by 13 points

SB 27 (loss to Cowboys)
362 yards of total offense
108 rushing yards
4 sacks
9 turnovers
17 points
Lost by 35 points

SB 28 (loss to Cowboys)
314 yards of total offense
87 rushing yards
3 sacks
3 turnovers
13 points
Lost by 17 points

The Bills k-gun offense sucked in the Super Bowls. Jim Kelly was a complete disaster... 4 games, 2 TDs, 7 INTs, 3 FL, and 56.9 passer rating. Kelly and the k-gun offense had their best Super Bowl against Belichick's defense... most total yards, most rushing yards, fewest sacks (1), fewest turnovers (0), and merely lost by a missed FG. Buffalo had 17 turnovers in their other 3 SB losses where they were completely humiliated by the opposing defenses. So "mastermind" Bill actually shut down the Bills offense the least in those 4 games. The far more dominant defensive performances came from Washington and then Dallas twice.

The K Gun was a new offense in 1990... The Bills were the top scoring team, and were only one of two teams to score more than 400 points in the season (the Oilers were the other) ... The Bills mastery of the offense peaked in 1991... But quickly faded in 1992 and became even less effective in 1993 as team defenses caught on... Bills scoring in 90 - 428 points; '91 - 458 points; 1992 -381 points; 1993 - 329 points...

The other teams got a primer on catching up, in part, because of the defensive game plan set up by Bill Belichick... as @Ian pointed out, its in the HoF for a reason...

I get you hate the guy, but come on... your argument is hot trash sitting in a full dumpster on a humid day in the august florida heat... it stinks

 

[SHOWTIME15]

(too bad he couldn't stop his brother though), etc.

You know who had only 1 touchdown pass in the biggest game in NFL history? Your boy Timmy in 42. It was Brady who stopped himself from beating the Giants in two super bowls, despite laughing at the Giants D before one of them, and then he fumbled the Eagles game away. Would you like me to bring up the 10 turnovers Brady was responsible for in all the super bowls? Babe Ruth my ***. More like Lebron.

 

[crawhammer]

You're not very bright, are you? Each of those teams that beat the Bills during the 90s other than the Giants had high octane offenses. Washington Redskins in 1991 was unbeatable with the Posse (Clark, Sanders, and Monk) and the Cowboys teams were just stacked. Belichick deliberately had to slow down the Bills offense with a bend but don't break style in order to keep the score low. That's the only chance the Giants had against the Bills.

Look dummy, I'm not talking about the "high octane offenses." I'm talking about the defensive game plans and defensive execution against the k-gun offense. Three DC's after Belichick had great game plans against the k-gun and shut them down to a far greater extent. Belichick's defense managed 1 sack and 0 takeaways. Redskins in SB 26 had 5 sacks and 5 takeaways. Cowboys in SB 27 had 4 sacks and 9 takeaways, 9!. Cowboys in SB 28 had 3 sacks and 3 takeaways. The "high octane offenses" weren't shutting down the k-gun. The defenses were, which is what I'm talking about here.

 

[Ian]

Firstly I was talking about one specific thing... that Belichick was the only DC who could figure out how to slow down the k-gun offense. It's an overstated narrative because three other successive DC's obliterated the k-gun offense in the Super Bowl (put their game plans in the HOF too!... but that would have been stupid once everyone realized the k-gun offense was inept in SB level competition). As I normally do, I tacked on some numbers to back up my argument. That's it. That's all I was talking about in that post.

It's a bad argument. Period, as have been all of your efforts on what's essentially a tired narrative. As @Pat the Pats Fan pointed out - your "numbers" left out a key detail as you just threw out your take.

Again, the end result is you think Brady is why Bill won all those games, and you keep coming up with backhanded ways of trying to say it and then you pretend that's not the case - which is clearly what you're doing.

Anyway you look at it, Bill is also a key factor in a lot of those tough games where they won against teams people didn't expect them to. It was a two-way street and both guys benefited from working together. It's the chicken or the egg and there's no right answer, other than they both put together 20 combined years of sustained greatness.

I'll leave you with this. You can have a great year with a great player. You need a great coach to have one every single year, and that's a point that I think you're missing.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Look dummy, I'm not talking about the "high octane offenses." I'm talking about the defensive game plans and defensive execution against the k-gun offense. Three DC's after Belichick had great game plans against the k-gun and shut them down to a far greater extent. Belichick's defense managed 1 sack and 0 takeaways. Redskins in SB 26 had 5 sacks and 5 takeaways. Cowboys in SB 27 had 4 sacks and 9 takeaways, 9!. Cowboys in SB 28 had 3 sacks and 3 takeaways. The "high octane offenses" weren't shutting down the k-gun. The defenses were, which is what I'm talking about here.

More proof that you don't know much about football other than stats. The defensive game plan that BIll employed in SB 25 was done in a way to deliberately allow the Bills to run the ball so that Kelly wouldn't throw the ball and light the Giants D up. That means the Giants were going to give up a lot of yards on the ground.

Also, you failed to mention that Kelly was knocked out of one of the Cowboys super bowls and Frank Reich had to go in.

This year is proof that Brady is a sub .500 QB without good coaching. There I said it.

 

[upstater1]

So ridiculous. Again, I get why people are still mad at Bill over the Brady thing. But to try and completely discredit what he did over 20-years and act like Bill was just a role player and rode Brady's coattails is just so mind-numbingly naive and goes way too far.

I don't have the time or inclination to look back at what people were saying in the 2019 season but I do remember a huge number of people here were critical of Brady and thought a divorce was probably in the best interest of the team. While I thought Brady had a lot more to give and that he was a victim of OL injuries, a lot of people here thought Brady was done, not only in New England, but everywhere.

 

[Ian]

I don't have the time or inclination to remember what people were saying in the 2019 season but I do remember a huge number of people here were critical of Brady and thought a divorce was probably in the best interest of the team. While I thought Brady had a lot more to give and that he was a victim of OL injuries, a lot of people here thought Brady was done, not only in New England, but everywhere.

Hindsight is always 20/20 - and 2020 certainly quieted that - at least for one year. Albeit, they're now out in force

 

[upstater1]

Bill was the coach and Brady was the QB. That alone made Brady more valuable. Too bad that Kraft fell for the same bs as many fans here did.

For me, ranking coaches over players is going too far. It's all about the players on the field, not the pencil pushers on the sideline.

Coaching football has been roughly the same for 100 years and it's only the top players that win, with or without top coaches.

This presumes Belichick couldn't win without a HOF QB.

 

[Boston Boxer]

Let's put this overrated narrative to rest.

Buffalo lost 4 Super Bowls in a row from 1990 to 1993.

SB 25 (loss to NYG)
371 yards of total offense
166 rushing yards
1 sack
0 turnovers
19 points
Lost by 1 point on a missed 47-yards FGA

SB 26 (loss to Washington)
283 yards of total offense
43 rushing yards
5 sacks
5 turnovers
24 points
Lost by 13 points

SB 27 (loss to Cowboys)
362 yards of total offense
108 rushing yards
4 sacks
9 turnovers
17 points
Lost by 35 points

SB 28 (loss to Cowboys)
314 yards of total offense
87 rushing yards
3 sacks
3 turnovers
13 points
Lost by 17 points

The Bills k-gun offense sucked in the Super Bowls. Jim Kelly was a complete disaster... 4 games, 2 TDs, 7 INTs, 3 FL, and 56.9 passer rating. Kelly and the k-gun offense had their best Super Bowl against Belichick's defense... most total yards, most rushing yards, fewest sacks (1), fewest turnovers (0), and merely lost by a missed FG. Buffalo had 17 turnovers in their other 3 SB losses where they were completely humiliated by the opposing defenses. So "mastermind" Bill actually shut down the Bills offense the least in those 4 games. The far more dominant defensive performances came from Washington and then Dallas twice.

we get it...you dont like BB.

 

[TheRainMaker]

You know who had only 1 touchdown pass in the biggest game in NFL history? Your boy Timmy in 42. It was Brady who stopped himself from beating the Giants in two super bowls, despite laughing at the Giants D before one of them, and then he fumbled the Eagles game away. Would you like me to bring up the 10 turnovers Brady was responsible for in all the super bowls? Babe Ruth my ***. More like Lebron.

Does he only throw 1 TD on a healthy ankle in SB42? I would say no and they score just enough to get it out of reach.

The second Super Bowl I have no defense, he and their entire offense disappointed as they had the Giants on the ropes up 17-9 and called it a day. No excuses.

He messed up the Eagles game getting too greedy. Eagles still probably would've just marched right back down field and won the game.

 

[crawhammer]

The K Gun was a new offense in 1990... The Bills were the top scoring team, and were only one of two teams to score more than 400 points in the season (the Oilers were the other) ... The Bills mastery of the offense peaked in 1991... But quickly faded in 1992 and became even less effective in 1993 as team defenses caught on... Bills scoring in 90 - 428 points; '91 - 458 points; 1992 -381 points; 1993 - 329 points...

The other teams got a primer on catching up, in part, because of the defensive game plan set up by Bill Belichick... as @Ian pointed out, its in the HoF for a reason...

I get you hate the guy, but come on... your argument is hot trash sitting in a full dumpster on a humid day in the august florida heat... it stinks

So Belichick's game plan in one game destroyed the k-gun offense completely? Bullsh*t!

1990 Buffalo Offense
1st P/G
6th Y/G

1991 Buffalo Offense
2nd P/G
1st Y/G

1992 Buffalo Offense
3rd P/G
2nd Y/G

1993 Buffalo Offense
7th P/G
6th Y/G

Must have had a delayed effect? Is that what you're saying? Because the k-gun was just as good or better in 1991 and 1992. It wasn't bad in 1993 either. You're wrong.

 

[crawhammer]

we get it...you dont like BB.

Because I point out some facts? Ok.

 

[Ian]

You know who had only 1 touchdown pass in the biggest game in NFL history? Your boy Timmy in 42. It was Brady who stopped himself from beating the Giants in two super bowls, despite laughing at the Giants D before one of them, and then he fumbled the Eagles game away. Would you like me to bring up the 10 turnovers Brady was responsible for in all the super bowls? Babe Ruth my ***. More like Lebron.

Yeah - if you're trying to help make a point, don't go there. That's another take that makes the spot behind my right eye ache.

I think you forget Brady never got blown out during the postseason. You've got some guys within your handy stat sheet who can't say the same thing. Let it go.

 

[Ian]

So Belichick's game plan in one game destroyed the k-gun offense completely? Bullsh*t!

1990 Buffalo Offense
1st P/G
6th Y/G

1991 Buffalo Offense
2nd P/G
1st Y/G

1992 Buffalo Offense
3rd P/G
2nd Y/G

1993 Buffalo Offense
7th P/G
6th Y/G

Must have had a delayed effect? Is that what you're saying? Because the k-gun was just as good or better in 1991 and 1992. It wasn't bad in 1993 either. You're wrong.

For crying out loud, let it go.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Because I point out some facts? Ok.

I point out facts about Brady all the time and you ignore it and/or make excuses for it.

Does he only throw 1 TD on a healthy ankle in SB42? I would say no and they score just enough to get it out of reach.

Maybe, but he shouldn't have laughed at Plaxico Burress if that was the case. He looked and felt confident before the game. Remember when he didn't shake Eli's hand right before kickoff?

 

[Steve102]

Yeah - if you're trying to help make a point, don't go there. That's another take that makes the spot behind my right eye ache.

I think you forget Brady never got blown out during the postseason. You've got some guys within your handy stat sheet who can't say the same thing. Let it go.

He got blown out in the Atlanta SB... they were down 28-3 before he... oh wait.. yeah never mind.

 

[crawhammer]

More proof that you don't know much about football other than stats. The defensive game plan that BIll employed in SB 25 was done in a way to deliberately allow the Bills to run the ball so that Kelly wouldn't throw the ball and light the Giants D up. That means the Giants were going to give up a lot of yards on the ground.

Also, you failed to mention that Kelly was knocked out of one of the Cowboys super bowls and Frank Reich had to go in.

This year is proof that Brady is a sub .500 QB without good coaching. There I said it.

Of all the members here, you hold the single dumbest position of anyone. Essentially your position is Brady really isn't that good. "He's in your top 5" of all-time QBs is the closest you've come to saying anything positive about him. And even that position is outrageously stupid. I don't know how many active members there are here but most likely nearly all of them have Brady as the undisputed GOAT. It's doubtful but some may have him at #2 but absolutely no one has him lower than that unless they're completely insane.

Whatever Bill's plan was for SB 25, the DC's for SB's 26, 27 & 28 had better plans because they had much better results against the k-gun offense. Fact.

 

[Bruins29]

If we could just pit Mac10 and his anti Brady energy against Crawhammer with his anti BB energy I bet we could crash the internet.