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What if Brady succeeds elsewhere? Ramifications for BB.

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Biffins, Feb 19, 2020.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Pro Bowl Player

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    Brisset is not the answer in Indy and Jimmy B has proven to be little more than an exceptional Game Manager. Mahomes delivered when the chips were down and Jimmy 5hit the bed. Not sold on Jimmy B at all.
     
  2. ChrisR2223

    ChrisR2223 Pro Bowl Player

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    Kyle long said on NFL network he’d like to see the niners sign Brady and trade Jimmy G.
    Very interesting
     
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  3. primetime

    primetime PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The 08 team was nearly identical to the 07 team minus Brady, but the 09 team had significant personnel changes. McDaniels left to coach Denver. Welker was hurt for a chunk of the year, Moss was starting to fade, and the team lacked a Jabar Gaffney or Donte Stallworth who had served as a reliable third option. Brady looked rusty returning from injury, but still averaged nearly a full yard per attempt more per pass than Cassel had. It wasn't until 2010 that you'd see an offensive revival with the arrival of Gronk, Hernandez, and Woodhead and swapping Moss for Branch.

    The defense also changed completely. The 2008 defense was basically the same as 2007, but 2009 was a big transition point. Rodney was gone and replaced with James Sanders; Seymour was traded; Asante was gone and replaced by Shawn Springs and Jonathan Wilhite; Bruschi retired and was replaced with Gary Guyton; Seau finally ran out of juice; Thomas turned into a cancer; Ty Warren left in free agency; Vrabel was traded.

    With Brady, the Patriots would have gone 15-1 in 2008 and won the Super Bowl. (They would not have won the Miami Wildcat game no matter what, Belichick just got outcoached in that one.)
     
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  4. primetime

    primetime PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No, history manifestly says there is rarely excellent QB talent available after the first round. You just named fewer than a dozen guys reaching back 60 years to before the merger! There's been thousands of quarterbacks since then! Stidham may end up being a good player but the idea that anyone would expect him to come in as a first-time starter as a 4th round pick and raise up an offense that Tom Brady could not is laughable, and that's what we're talking about here (as opposed to rolling with Stidham to see what he's got and assuming at that point the season's probably a lost cause, unless the defense makes miracles happen).

    (And, for what it's worth, a couple aren't even good analogies. Brees was the 32nd pick in the draft and was bad with the Chargers as a first-time starter; Steve Young was a 1st round supplemental pick who chose to play in the USFL and then was bad with the Bucs as a first-time starter; Staubach was drafted late because he would not be available for several years due to his Navy service and was 27 when he first played in the NFL; and Theismann was acquired for a 1st round pick by the Redskins from the Dolphins after playing a few years in the CFL.)
     
  5. everlong

    everlong Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Best case Tom stays and they win one or two more. If Tom leaves I hope he does win another SB and then I hope the Patriots win another one without him. If the latter happens and they won 6 together as HC and QB and then won without each other even the haters have to admit they are the respective GOATs with no debate.
     
  6. Kasmir

    Kasmir Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    That list is just superbowl winners; there are a lot of good QB's who never won Superbowls.

    I don't know what the overall stats say in terms of likelihood for a non-first round pick to be become a quality NFL starter. Since there are so many more lower round picks, my guess is that it is far more frequent than you think, averaging about one in each year's draft class.

    For instance, in the 20 years 2000-2019, 15 of the pro-bowl QB's were not drafted in the 1st round, vs 21 pro-bowlers who were 1st round picks.

    So you're almost as likely to get a quality starter after the 1st round as to get one in the 1st round.

    I think if this board was told our new QB was to be a Dak Prescott (4th round) or Tony Romo (undrafted) there'd be a lot less pessimism about the future after Brady inevitably departs.

    Not saying Stidham has done anything yet except drop to the 4th round based on his horrid last year of play at Auburn, but he is being coached by the guy who developed Brady and went with him over a #1 overall pick, when everyone else thought Brady was at best a puny game manager who couldn't beat out Drew Henson.

    Also keep in mind that the Brady == GOAT talk wasn't credible outside of Boston until he was paired with Randy Moss -- IMO the GOAT wide receiver -- and Rob Gronkowski -- IMO the GOAT tight end. In 2005, Brady was still thought of as a game manager, and the GOAT talk was from Pats fans who pointed out that he was a winner.

    I do believe Brady is the GOAT, but he's gotten a lot of help in New England. IMO, this last year's problems were in a large part do to the retirement of Gronkowski with his unparalleled skill set simultaneously leveraging both the run game and the passing game even in his last year. Huge loss, and almost as difficult to replace as Brady.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
  7. Froob

    Froob Independent Investigator & pliable af PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Wait Brady is leaving?!?
     
  8. primetime

    primetime PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Okay, but you seem to have missed something in the original post. I wasn't looking for "good mid-round QBs" but rather "mid-round QBs who lifted moribund offenses in their first year as a starter." This thread is posed as a question about 2020, not down the line. Brady couldn't lift the offense above mediocre last year; do we really expect Stidham to do any better, especially with the team going from a cupcake schedule to a meat grinder?

    (Romo is a good example, by the way. But in the last twenty years the number of quarterbacks who succeeded in an analogous position to Stidham can probably be counted on one hand. The number of quarterbacks who were thrown into the deep end like this and failed, on the other hand, is too large to contemplate.)
     
  9. Hyped

    Hyped PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    R.I.P. Sparano....that game was goddamn infuriating....

    But it sure was nice seeing Cassell throw for 400+ down in Miami later that season....
     
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  10. tasmlab

    tasmlab Starting QB, won 20 SBs, number is retired PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Maybe, but it would be a media thing primarily. It would provide endless clicks for a while. A coach doing worse after losing the greatest football player of all time shouldn't be shocking.
     
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  11. DaBronxPats14

    DaBronxPats14 In the Starting Line-Up

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    Yup! It's off season alright!
     
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  12. Actual Pats Fan

    Actual Pats Fan PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Off-season Thread Delusion Syndrome
     
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  13. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN PatsFans.com #1 Arguer PatsFans.com Supporter

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    [​IMG]
     
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  14. libra957

    libra957 Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Even without Tom, I very much expect another superbowl out of Belichick.
     
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  15. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It would be great, no doubt, but "expect"?

    Based on what? No offense to you, to BB, or to the football gods, but there is nothing in BB's coaching history to suggest such a thing is likely.
     
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  16. Biffins

    Biffins In the Starting Line-Up

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    This is heresy. I believe someone earlier in thread said BB could go 5 seasons of 4-12 with no issue.
     
  17. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN PatsFans.com #1 Arguer PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No, he wouldn’t. You’re talking about a team that has a stadium with a lounge based on the fact that fans at the games are very active on social media. They go one season of 4-12 and the fans will probably start to be unwilling to shell out the kind of coin needed to go to a game. He’d get fired within about 2, maybe 3, years of that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
  18. Actual Pats Fan

    Actual Pats Fan PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I hope he signs here and continues playing games. -- Fixedo_O
     
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  19. Actual Pats Fan

    Actual Pats Fan PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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  20. Actual Pats Fan

    Actual Pats Fan PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Stabler does not belong there.

    Sure, he could have won say, in the 1977 season, but we'll never know.

    Grogan belongs on that list. 5th round choice. Dreith robbery.
     

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