Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassment'

[primetime]

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

Schlereth: Don't lose crucial parts of 'the code' in NFL locker rooms - ESPN

Mark Schlereth is emphatically on the anti-bullying side, with stories from the Redskins Hogs era that he participated in. It's a bit "Mister Rogers drinks beer", but I still find it persuasive. Incognito supporters, however, probably won't.

I tend to think that fans and the media (and certain NFL executives) ascribe an assumed hyper-masculinity and barbarism to the NFL locker room that isn't really there, so this Dolphins incident fits with that version but players who have been through it clearly have a different view.

 

[Danger Zone]

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

No, that quote isn't spot on. It doesn't account for the fact that Martin's personal issues come into play.

Say someone new gets hired in at your company and they are afraid of their own freaking shadow. If you even say "Hello" to them, they freak the heck out.

Does that mean you were wrong to say it in the first place ? Is saying "Hello" to be forbidden because one person can't deal with it ?

Demosthenes... defending everyone's right to um.. "say hello".

 

[mayoclinic]

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

A few thoughts:

1. Putting a guy with Richie Incognito's history on a "leadership council" and allowing (and apparently even encouraging, given the report's characterization of Jim Turner) him to promote a neanderthal culture of derogating players and pushing them to the point of "breaking" them without any checks and balances or oversight was an incredibly stupid decision. That ultimately falls on Joe Philbin.

2. Wells' discussion of the "Judas code" suggests that it was virtually impossible for Martin to report his discomfort with the situation to those higher up without being further ostracized and possibly facing retaliation. That left him with the dubious choice of fighting back - something not in his nature, and one of the reasons that the abuse targeted him in the first place - or continuing to put up with it until he "broke". When he did, he was predictably called by many a Judas for "breaking the code of the NFL locker room" and a "*****" for not fighting back.

 

[PP2]

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

A few thoughts:

1. Putting a guy with Richie Incognito's history on a "leadership council" and allowing (and apparently even encouraging, given the report's characterization of Jim Turner) him to promote a neaderthal culture of derogating players and pushing them to the point of "breaking" them without any checks and balances or oversight was an incredibly stupid decision. That ultimately falls on Joe Philbin.

2. Wells' discussion of the "Judas code" suggests that it was virtually impossible for Martin to report his discomfort with the situation to those higher up without being further ostracized and possibly facing retaliation. That left him with the dubious choice of fighting back - something not in his nature, and one of the reasons that the abuse targeted him in the first place - or continuing to put up with it until he "broke". When he did, he was predictably called by many a Judas for "breaking the code of the NFL locker room" and a "*****" for not fighting back.

Incognito was there long before Philbins was hired.

This is more a reflection of the failure of the organization at large, and by extension, the owner.

Hiring a pushover like Philbins didn't help either.

 

[mayoclinic]

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

Incognito was there long before Philbins was hired.

This is more a reflection of the failure of the organization at large, and by extension, the owner.

Hiring a pushover like Philbins didn't help either.

Putting Incognito on a "leadership council" was a new move in 2013 - Incognito was given the role when Jake Long left in FA. That falls on Philbin ' s watch. But yes, the issues go deeper.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

The dude should have stood up for himself. It's often the case that you don't have to actually throw punches or fight, just show that you've had enough and are ready and willing to.

Martin is exactly what he was worried about, and that is SOFT.

Jim Harbaugh, a far more successful and far more old-school coach than Joe Philbin, has said that Martin is not soft. Martin was the left tackle for some very good Stanford teams. You don't know what you're talking about and your comments do not reflect well on you, traditionally a good poster. Your stance on this issue is simply disgraceful.

As to the bolded part. So Martin, who is not a fighter (that makes him soft apparently, even though he plays professional football on the OFFENSIVE LINE, where softness is not an option), lets Incognito know that he is ready and willing to fight. What then? Incognito either beats the sheeeit out of him in front of everyone, or when Incognito gets up to do it Martin has no choice but to back down, humiliating himself even further. Those are the only two things that would happen. Incognito is a psychopath and would never back down from that challenge. Your strategy is terrible and would not work.

 

[PP2]

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

Putting Incognito on a "leadership council" was a new move in 2013 - Incognito was given the role when Jake Long left in FA. That falls on Philbin ' s watch. But yes, the issues go deeper.

Wasn't Incognito a captain prior to Philbin's arrival?

But yes, that leadership council thing is entirely on Philbin.

 

[Fencer]

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

I think we can agree that Martin's strategy for dealing with Incognito was not optimal. He should have used his brainpower to think of many useful tactics, until he eventually found one that he could, given his psychology, actually bring himself to put into play.

But make no mistake -- the bad guy here is Incognito.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

I think we can agree that Martin's strategy for dealing with Incognito was not optimal. He should have used his brainpower to think of many useful tactics, until he eventually found one that he could, given his psychology, actually bring himself to put into play.

The dilemma is, sadly, not unlike someone trying to escape an abusive partner. The big problem with this is, of course, that if he tries something and it fails, he would probably end up in a worse position than before.

 

[Demosthenes]

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

Jesus, nice straw man. Where the hell was I talking about someone who was afraid of their shadow. JMart played under Jim Harbough, a particularly intense coach, and by all reports, had zero problems in a college locker room.

But I appreciate your psychological evaluation of Martin. Good read

You missed the point that I was making. Here again is the pertinent part of the quote that you were in approval of:

If your boys-will-be-boys messages lead another human being to quit a job and seek psychiatric help, then by all means feel free to share your "wisdom." Otherwise, spare us.

Saying "another human being" is overly broad and it fails to account for the fact that some small subset of the population might be overly sensitive and not react well to almost any situation.

I think I mentioned this example before in this thread, but will do so again (or for the first time perhaps?)

I gave a speech in a Comm class in college and started a speech by saying "Good afternoon Ladies and Gentlemen....."

During the post speech critique, my professor said that she was offended by this opening as she considered it to be sexist, and that I shouldn't start any presentation out that way.

I replied saying that in my opinion, she was hypersensitive and that her view was irrational. That the phrase was in no way sexist and that was no reason for me not to start every presentation out that way. That the problem wasn't with what I said, but rather, with her view on the subject.


Tying this into the point I was making. Again, the quote doesn't account for the fact that some people might react wrongly to just about ANYTHING.

 

[Wheelman]

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

Here's another passage from the report that goes to what I'm saying.

According to Martin, a fellow player standing near him in line overheard the comment and said “get them off your back.” Martin said that this episode further demonstrated to him that his teammates witnessed how he was routinely demeaned by the rest of the offensive line and observed that he was not standing up for himself, and he promised himself that if the linemen did one more thing, he would leave.

The dude should have stood up for himself. It's often the case that you don't have to actually throw punches or fight, just show that you've had enough and are ready and willing to.

Martin is exactly what he was worried about, and that is SOFT.

I think the key thing here is, Jonathan Martin didn't know how to stand up for himself. He didn't know how to make it stop. He didn't know how to get his needs met. Someone saying "get them off your back" is not going to help him.

He finally got out of a toxic environment and sought help. Good for him.

 

[primetime]

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

To me, the most telling anecdote is how Martin checked himself into a hospital after leaving the facility because he was afraid he was acting irrationally. To me thats remarkable, and alone speaks volumes about his maturity and responsibility.

 

[unoriginal]

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

Just heard Christian Faurier on WEEI. He said in 13 years with 4 different teams he never saw or heard anything remotely close to the locker roo!m environment in Miami. That's after reading the report. He said Incognito strikes him as the biggest a-hole and scumbag imaginable.

Then Christian Fauria has had a remarkably sheltered NFL career and is probably soft.

I tend to think that fans and the media (and certain NFL executives) ascribe an assumed hyper-masculinity and barbarism to the NFL locker room that isn't really there, so this Dolphins incident fits with that version but players who have been through it clearly have a different view.

Oh, it's there. It has to be there. I want it to be there. I want to cheer for hard-nosed, entirely self-sufficient and invulnerable men who need help from nobody and to whom no personal problem is too overwhelming for a right-hand hook to the jaw to solve.

But now I'm disturbed by the idea that some players, --- particularly younger, less established players --- when faced with significant personal and professional adversity are looking to others for help and support in dealing with their problems. Now we have an example of at least one young player that would rather remove themself from a uncomfortable situation and seek support elsewhere instead of suddenly lashing out at someone's face with their dominant arm. And in large part, he's now gotten that outside support, without having to do anything at all for himself.

Is that what we've come to as a society? Is that the sort of behavior we want to go unpunished?

Even if the world were put right tomorrow and Ritchie Incognito were welcomed back to Miami and given a laurel wreath in recognition of his total victory over Jonathan Martin and awarded a medal for cleaning out the Dolphins locker room, I'd still be left with an empty feeling inside.
How can I watch NFL football any more without wondering, how many guys on the field right now are secretly soft? How many of those supposedly strong and battle-tested young men are non-confrontational and emotionally sensitive in their private lives?

How many of them have enough of a spine to flash a piece if some fool started disrespecting them? How many of them would execute such a fool and then dump their body about a mile from their house to send a message? How many would be able to have two guys knifed outside a club and leave them bleeding out on the sidewalk? How many would be willing and able to man up and take care of their own problems like that?

And worst of all I would wonder, how many of them are on the Patriots?

 

[Wheelman]

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

I gave a speech in a Comm class in college and started a speech by saying "Good afternoon Ladies and Gentlemen....."

During the post speech critique, my professor said that she was offended by this opening as she considered it to be sexist, and that I shouldn't start any presentation out that way.

I replied saying that in my opinion, she was hypersensitive and that her view was irrational. That the phrase was in no way sexist and that was no reason for me not to start every presentation out that way. That the problem wasn't with what I said, but rather, with her view on the subject.


Tying this into the point I was making. Again, the quote doesn't account for the fact that some people might react wrongly to just about ANYTHING.

Instead, why not ask her where she's coming from? Is it not a good thing to learn and understand another person's point of view? Perhaps you could learn something from it?

Maybe you didn't give the complete story, but from what you wrote it sounds like you didn't even give her opinion a chance and shot it down. So you ended up learning nothing from it.

She didn't learn anything from you either, to why you use that and have no problem using it.

Sounds like a lose-lose situation to me.:confused2:

 

[Danger Zone]

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

... I gave a speech in a Comm class in college and started a speech by saying "Good afternoon Ladies and Gentlemen....."

During the post speech critique, my professor said that she was offended by this opening as she considered it to be sexist, and that I shouldn't start any presentation out that way.

I replied saying that in my opinion, she was hypersensitive and that her view was irrational. That the phrase was in no way sexist and that was no reason for me not to start every presentation out that way. That the problem wasn't with what I said, but rather, with her view on the subject.


Tying this into the point I was making. Again, the quote doesn't account for the fact that some people might react wrongly to just about ANYTHING.

I have work really hard to empathize with why anyone would find the phrase "Ladies and Gentlemen" sexist.... but I believe it has to do with the constraints society expected of a "ladies" behavior and the consequences of women that strayed outside these expectations.

What you experienced is hardly unique in college life.. "ladies and gentlemen" has worked itself into being categorized as un-pc in many colleges... but like every corrective movement in socuety.. there are many over corrections.

While I applaud original thinking and the people that challenge the system.. no matter how "right" your defense of what I also consider to be an innocuous phrase.. your reply to your professors reaction was simply self-destructive, potentially passive aggressive and obstinant.

No matter the strength of truth on your side.. telling anyone that they are hypersensitive and irrational just lost you the argument.


EDIT: Image of Sheldon Cooper deleted after seeing how obnoxiously over-sized it was when I got a chance to look at it on a PC. I apologize.

 

[mayoclinic]

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

Wasn't Incognito a captain prior to Philbin's arrival?

But yes, that leadership council thing is entirely on Philbin.

The Dolphins had formal team captains under Tony Sparano, but I don't believe that Incognito was ever one of them. Chad Henne, Jake Long, Yeremiah Bell and Karlos Dansby were the captains in 2011; Sparano later named Jason Taylor a captain as well. Long, Bell, Dansby and Patrick Cobbs were the captains in 2010 (Incognito's first year with the team).

When he took over as HC in 2012 Joe Philbin didn't want to single out a small group of individuals as "captains", so he decided to name "captains" for each game based on their practice performance from that week. It's possible that Incognito earned that designation for one or more games. The "leadership council" was started after Philbin's arrival in 2012 when a group of players approached Philbin about needing more continuity, and better communication between the players and coaches. All 4 guys on the council in 2012 left the Dolphins in 2013 - Jake Long, Karlos Dansby, Reggie Bush and Davone Bess.

Dolphins name new ?leadership council? - The Phinsider

The fact that Davone Bess was on the council in 2012 should raise a bit of a red flag in and of itself, given how he has imploded this year.

More bizarre behavior from Davone Bess | ProFootballTalk

This year, Incognito and Mike Pouncey were both voted to the council, along with DE Cameron Wake, DT Paul Soliai, LB Daniel Ellerbe and QB Ryan Tannehill. Phin Nation noted at the time of their appointment:

The reasoning behind this council is for the players to have a voice with the coaches. It’s not a union, but these captains act as the intermediary between the players in the trenches and the coaching staff. Joe Philbin wants these players to take charge in the locker room and be his voice when he’s not around.

Dolphins announce captains for 2013 season, their ?Leadership Council? | Yardbarker.com

It doesn't seem to have worked too well.

The Dolphins initially signed Incognito to a 1 year deal in 2010. When they gave him a 3 year extension in 2011, they added language to his contract putting him on a "one strike" leash because of his extensive history of problematic behavior. Despite this, they only fined him $50K for his 2 golf-course related incidents in 2012. Apparently that didn't count as strike one, and didn't prevent them from making him a de facto captain (along with Hernandez crony Pouncey) in 2013.

 

[Demosthenes]

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

Jim Harbaugh, a far more successful and far more old-school coach than Joe Philbin, has said that Martin is not soft. Martin was the left tackle for some very good Stanford teams. You don't know what you're talking about and your comments do not reflect well on you, traditionally a good poster. Your stance on this issue is simply disgraceful.

As to the bolded part. So Martin, who is not a fighter (that makes him soft apparently, even though he plays professional football on the OFFENSIVE LINE, where softness is not an option), lets Incognito know that he is ready and willing to fight. What then? Incognito either beats the sheeeit out of him in front of everyone, or when Incognito gets up to do it Martin has no choice but to back down, humiliating himself even further. Those are the only two things that would happen. Incognito is a psychopath and would never back down from that challenge. Your strategy is terrible and would not work.

thanks for the compliment Hercules. It's absolutely true that Martin played left tackle on some very good Stanford teams. That said, it's also true that he wasn't very good with Miami.

From ProFootballFocus:

New England Patriots Forums - PatsFans.com Patriots Fan Messageboard

Dud: You spend a high pick on a rookie, then it’s likely at some point you’re going to want to see what you’ve got. Well, the Dolphins got a good long look at Jonathan Martin (-22.0) and they’ll know he’s got a long way to go before he becomes the player they drafted him to be.

and

Notes: It was a tough season for Martin regardless of which side he lined up. His -22.0 grade placed him 76th out of the top 80 tackles and his 92.0 PBE ranked 50th out of 52. His five starts at left tackle came after starter Jake Long went down to injury and with Long’s pending free agent status, Martin may stay there long term. No matter which side he plays, Martin must show improvement after a difficult rookie campaign.

Martin might be a classic case of a guy doing well in college, who can't cut it in the pros. He was probably bigger and stronger than just about everyone he faced in college, which wouldn't be the case during the 17 weeks of the NFL regular season.

As for your last paragraph, it's supposition to conclude that Incognito is a psychopath. Secondly, say that Martin did stand up, he and Incognito fought and Martin lost. Guess what ? Standing up and taking an ass whipping still shows strength and would earn the respect of most others on the team.

Think about it, there are UFC fights seemingly every week. Two guys go in, and one of them usually gets his ass kicked for any number of reasons. Could be that the other guy is stronger. Or faster. Or has better technique. Or has better conditioning. Or can just take a punch better. Or maybe he just got lucky. Losing a fight isn't the end of the world.

Thirdly, I've never heard of a fight in and NFL locker room actually going to a conclusion. Can't say that it hasn't happened, but in every instance I have heard of, other team members break things up. We see it in various training camps every single year. Guys get chippy "testing" each other.

 

[robbomango]

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

Of course it doesn't always work, and it definitely shouldn't be the first course of action.

Here's another passage from the report that goes to what I'm saying.



The dude should have stood up for himself. It's often the case that you don't have to actually throw punches or fight, just show that you've had enough and are ready and willing to.

Martin is exactly what he was worried about, and that is SOFT.

The trainer wouldn't even admit he was offended in a private meeting for fear of losing his job yet he was offended, Nate was on the verge of crying 24/7, never said a word, saw a counselor and worked through it with his wife. If Martin is soft what are those guys?

After reading most of the report I'm under the impression the lunatics ran the asylum and any attempt made to stop the ridicule would'v lead to a similar result(Martin leaving the team in some way). Richie and the boys weren't going to change because one day Jmart decides to get mad imo.

I am all for trash talking and fooling around but It's not very cool when others aren't into it.

 

[Joker]

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

It's the Dolphizz...screw 'em

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Re: Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassmen

thanks for the compliment Hercules. It's absolutely true that Martin played left tackle on some very good Stanford teams. That said, it's also true that he wasn't very good with Miami.

Martin might be a classic case of a guy doing well in college, who can't cut it in the pros. He was probably bigger and stronger than just about everyone he faced in college, which wouldn't be the case during the 17 weeks of the NFL regular season.

As for your last paragraph, it's supposition to conclude that Incognito is a psychopath. Secondly, say that Martin did stand up, he and Incognito fought and Martin lost. Guess what ? Standing up and taking an ass whipping still shows strength and would earn the respect of most others on the team.

Think about it, there are UFC fights seemingly every week. Two guys go in, and one of them usually gets his ass kicked for any number of reasons. Could be that the other guy is stronger. Or faster. Or has better technique. Or has better conditioning. Or can just take a punch better. Or maybe he just got lucky. Losing a fight isn't the end of the world.

Thirdly, I've never heard of a fight in and NFL locker room actually going to a conclusion. Can't say that it hasn't happened, but in every instance I have heard of, other team members break things up. We see it in various training camps every single year. Guys get chippy "testing" each other.

Martin isn't a very good NFL player, I have little doubt about that. He's big, talented and smart, however, so I'd give him a chance to see if he can make it at guard if I was an NFL team.

It is supposition that Incognito is a psycho, but he's also gotten kicked off the team at Nebraska, Oregon, the St Louis Rams, the Bills and the Dolphins. Every team he's ever played for has decided that their most talented offensive lineman was not worth the trouble. He assaults women, he drinks far too much, he has been arrested for assault and kicked off teams for fighting with teammates, and he spews filth to his teammates in attempts to "toughen them up." He is a loser, both in the moral sense and, more relevantly, in the footballs sense. He has never played on a single team that was not a disappointment. The best team he played on was the 9-3 Huskers' team that got his coach fired. His entire NFL career his team has never had a winning record. He doesn't know how to win, he shouldn't be a team captain, and he should have no responsibility over younger players.

As for fights being broken up in practice, you're right there. But what about Marcus Williams, who Bill Romanowski punched in the face, shattering his orbital socket and ending his career right there? Richie Incognito is a 305 lb beast, and we are not really talking about fighting on the practice field, but rather in the locker room, where there are no pads or helmets, and where one punch to the face from someone as big and aggressive as Richie could end your career right there. Fighting him is a bad idea. The Dolphins are a bad team with a diseased culture. Martin's problem isn't that he's a sissy, it's that he's not a very good player right now. If he was out there doing his job at a high level, it wouldn't matter that he doesn't want to fight people.

I hope the kid gets another shot with a different team, and seeing as how he'll probably cost nothing, I wouldn't mind it being with the NEP. He has size and agility, and if he can learn to play guard he could be a real asset.