Trade value for our WRs? Who - to where - and for what?

[spacecrime]

Barring injury, in great contrast to last year, we have significant depth at WR... so much so that our 5/6 WR could be a solid 3, or maybe even #2 WR on another team.

Seems to me that Gaffney and Washington are the most likely trade candidates.

Why? We didn't have to trade to get them. They were sitting on the open market with damn little interest in their services. Gaffney was a street FA for quite a while, IIRC. No one wanted him then, and he only had one good game with the Pats. Nothing I see to make anyone salivate over him.

Same with Washington. We signed him for cheap money. If anyone wanted him, they could have offered him real $$$ last spring.

It is delusional to think we could get a draft pick for either. Reminds me of the Let's-trade-Rohan-for-a-first-round-pick talk.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Why? We didn't have to trade to get them. They were sitting on the open market with damn little interest in their services. Gaffney was a street FA for quite a while, IIRC. No one wanted him then, and he only had one good game with the Pats. Nothing I see to make anyone salivate over him.

Same with Washington. We signed him for cheap money. If anyone wanted him, they could have offered him real $$$ last spring.

It is delusional to think we could get a draft pick for either. Reminds me of the Let's-trade-Rohan-for-a-first-round-pick talk.

Ohhhh! Sorry - I didn't know about the NFL's rule that only players who teams had to trade for are allowed to be traded.

So does that mean the Doug Gabriel trade never happened? Thank goodness. And Duane Starks must have been a delusional dream!

Of course Gaffney was cut late in the pre-season and certainly many teams questioned what he had left - just like the Chargers questioned what Harrison had left - so if he has no value why don't we just cut him now?

We have unprecendented depth at this position for a change - barring injury I think its a given teams will be talking to us about a trade. I just can't wait for it to happen to re-open this thread then, just like we did for all those people who said we were "set" at WR with Gaffney and Caldwell and that the lack of a deep WR game didn't have any adverse affect on the team last year.

 

[spacecrime]

So does that mean the Doug Gabriel trade never happened? Thank goodness. And Duane Starks must have been a delusional dream!

Thank you. This is exactly the point I wanted to make. We could NOT trade away Gabriel and Starks. We could not get a conditional seventh rounder for them. We had to cut them.

Now, if we couldn't get anything for guys valuable enough that we TRADED for them, why in the heck do you think we could get a pick for guys we pulled out of the scrap heap that NO ONE would even sign for free?

Ohhhh! Sorry - I didn't know about the NFL's rule that only players who teams had to trade for are allowed to be traded.

Don't be a bigger dink than you have to be.

The fact is that if you can find a team who wouldn't sign player A to a vet min contract in March, and who is now willing to give up a fifth rounder for that player, by all means, pull the trigger.

(If you weren't trying to be a dink and are merely ignorant, I apologize for the dink comment.)

I just can't wait for it to happen to re-open this thread then, just like we did for all those people who said we were "set" at WR with Gaffney and Caldwell and that the lack of a deep WR game didn't have any adverse affect on the team last year.

So Gaffney, the WR that couldn't get it done last year is suddenly going to be "a solid #3 or even #2 on another team" as you said twice in this thread? ha ha.

Anyway, it wasn't our offense that fell apart in the AFCCG. If the defense had played halfway decent at the end of the first half and the second half, we would have won handily. (Not blaming them, I understand they were sick, but normally our defense can hold a 21-3 lead with 31 minutes to play.)

But yes, by all means re-open this thread the minute Gaffney and Washington become solid #3 or #2 receivers on another team. Whether they are traded or cut, it just ain't gonna happen. They aren't that good.

 

[patsox23]

I don't think the Pats are going to be able to trade with anyone. Teams will just wait until the Pats have to cut one of them and then sign.

I've heard this over and over again through the years, and what I fail to understand is how people can't see that there is a decent chance that teams will not want to CHANCE not getting a certain players. So they give up a 4th or 5th round pick to make sure they get him. Why is this such a difficult argument to comprehend?

 

[patsox23]

It is delusional to think we could get a draft pick for either. Reminds me of the Let's-trade-Rohan-for-a-first-round-pick talk.

DELUSIONAL??? People are suggesting the Pats could maybe get a 5th or 6th rounder for Washington, who Tennessee was tryin ghard to sign until we got him. How is it delusional to suggest that they may be willing to cough up a pick, especially considering how this off-season has left their WR depth chart?

And how on EARTH is it on the same level as "Let's-trade-Rohan-for-a-first-round-pick?" Good Lord, man, have some sense of balance.

 

[JoeSixPat]

DELUSIONAL??? People are suggesting the Pats could maybe get a 5th or 6th rounder for Washington, who Tennessee was tryin ghard to sign until we got him. How is it delusional to suggest that they may be willing to cough up a pick, especially considering how this off-season has left their WR depth chart?

And how on EARTH is it on the same level as "Let's-trade-Rohan-for-a-first-round-pick?" Good Lord, man, have some sense of balance.

Thanks - while some fans clearly miss the value in trading for a player, most GMs are smart enough to understand the value of avoiding competition.

I also think spacecrime missed the point in implying that NO GM would be stupid enough to give up a draft pick for a quality player, when OUR OWN ORGANIZATION gave up a 3rd round draft choice for Starks and a 5th rounder (which many here felt was a steal) for Gabriel.

Apparently only the Patriots are "stupid" enough to give up draft picks in a trade - why didn't that idiot BB just wait until they had cut Starks or Gabriel? (of course in hindsight I wish they had but that's not really the point - the point is trades happen all the time.)

And yes, as you point out, Washington, although coming off an injury, was actually sought after - also Gaffney is a year removed from free agency and has shown himself serviceable, especially towards the end of the season with 10 catches and 100 yards against San Diego (yeah, that's not worth a 6th rounder) - and Caldwell, despite signing a bargain basement contract, still caught 61 passes last year... but no one in their right mind would even consider giving up a draft pick for that kindof production spacecrime - really?

They'll just wait til he's cut???

I didn't really think I would have to spend so much time explaining the premise of why teams might look at our WR depth and be interested trading partners but apparently I do.

Look - no one was tougher on our WRs last year than me - but it wasn't because Gaffney or Caldwell couldn't catch a 12 yard pass - or even lots of them - its because 12 yards was as deep as our WR game got and it was hurting the team.

But to compare a serviceable WRs like Caldwell or Gaffney with Rohan Davey who had NO stats outside of pre-season just demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the game that I don't think I can help anyone with.

It goes without saying that there's trade value among our WRs - league wide injuries and performance will determine just how much there is - but if Doug Gabriel can command a 5th round draft pick, unless someone thinks that Caldwell, Gaffney and Washington are actually WORSE players than Gabriel, there's a potential for some trade value.

 

[DaBruinz]

Washington and Stallworth and Brown were all free agents this offseason. I would think that if any team wanted any of those three, they would have just gone and signed them directly instead of giving the patriots the chance to sign and broker a trade for compensation.

Actually, Washington and Stallworth are only free agents if the Pats do NOT pick up the options on them.

 

[DaBruinz]

Why? We didn't have to trade to get them. They were sitting on the open market with damn little interest in their services. Gaffney was a street FA for quite a while, IIRC. No one wanted him then, and he only had one good game with the Pats. Nothing I see to make anyone salivate over him.

Same with Washington. We signed him for cheap money. If anyone wanted him, they could have offered him real $$$ last spring.

It is delusional to think we could get a draft pick for either. Reminds me of the Let's-trade-Rohan-for-a-first-round-pick talk.

You'd be recalling wrong. Gaffney was a cut prior to the start of the season by the Eagles. And the Eagles cut him because they got Stallworth and Hank Baskett. Gaffney was a "street FA" for about 5 weeks before the Pats signed him. Gaffney was shafted by the Eagles because most teams had already set their rosters at WR. Even the Pats. They didn't sign Gaffney until it became obvious that Gabriel wasn't working out.

Washington was signed very quickly to a potentially lucrative contract. Who says that he wasn't offered "real money" by a team other than the Patriots. There are only 3 or 4 other QBs in this league that players trip over themselves to play for. Brady, Carson, Peyton, and Drew Brees. Brady IS known as a QB who hits you if you are open.

 

[DaBruinz]

Thank you. This is exactly the point I wanted to make. We could NOT trade away Gabriel and Starks. We could not get a conditional seventh rounder for them. We had to cut them.

Now, if we couldn't get anything for guys valuable enough that we TRADED for them, why in the heck do you think we could get a pick for guys we pulled out of the scrap heap that NO ONE would even sign for free?

I think you need to refresh your memory a bit.
1) Starks was IRed and then released.
2) Gabriel was cut AFTER the trading deadline was OVER. Its kind of hard to trade someone when you aren't allowed to make trades.

Don't be a bigger dink than you have to be.

The fact is that if you can find a team who wouldn't sign player A to a vet min contract in March, and who is now willing to give up a fifth rounder for that player, by all means, pull the trigger.

(If you weren't trying to be a dink and are merely ignorant, I apologize for the dink comment.)

Mank, Space, nothing like calling the kettle black here.

So Gaffney, the WR that couldn't get it done last year is suddenly going to be "a solid #3 or even #2 on another team" as you said twice in this thread? ha ha.

Again, you need to refresh yourself on Gaffney's situation. The Eagles cut him because they had Reggie Brown, Greg Lewis, had just traded for Hank Baskett, had just drafted Jason Avant and just signed Stallworth. Gaffney was the odd man out. Not because he didn't play well. But because Baskett had played just as well and Avant was a 4th round pick who wasn't going to see a lot of time on the field as the 5th WR.



A

nyway, it wasn't our offense that fell apart in the AFCCG. If the defense had played halfway decent at the end of the first half and the second half, we would have won handily. (Not blaming them, I understand they were sick, but normally our defense can hold a 21-3 lead with 31 minutes to play.)

But yes, by all means re-open this thread the minute Gaffney and Washington become solid #3 or #2 receivers on another team. Whether they are traded or cut, it just ain't gonna happen. They aren't that good.

WOW. Talk about revisionist history. Our offense sure as hell did fall apart in the 2nd half. Our top 3 RBs were injured all in the matter of 10 minutes. The team couldn't get 1st downs, leading to 3 punts in the 2nd half. They also had to settle for 2 FGs because they couldn't move the ball. Hell, after the 29 yard reception by Graham, they attemtped to pass 3 straight times, taking very little time off the clock. I know that Evans isn't a great runner, but, hell, just running time off the clock would have changed the course of the game.

Gaffney was a solid #2 receiver for 4 years on a team with a pitiful O-line. I do agree with your assessment of Washington. He just has shown the ability yet.

 

[BelichickFan]

It is delusional to think we could get a draft pick for either. Reminds me of the Let's-trade-Rohan-for-a-first-round-pick talk.

If we were expecting a day one pick for a WR - you are correct. A conditional later pick ? We very likely could get one if we choose to go in that direction - although I could see us not and keeping the depth.

 

[Keegs]

Why? We didn't have to trade to get them. They were sitting on the open market with damn little interest in their services. Gaffney was a street FA for quite a while, IIRC. No one wanted him then, and he only had one good game with the Pats. Nothing I see to make anyone salivate over him.

Same with Washington. We signed him for cheap money. If anyone wanted him, they could have offered him real $$$ last spring.

It is delusional to think we could get a draft pick for either. Reminds me of the Let's-trade-Rohan-for-a-first-round-pick talk.

Gaffney had 3 good games with the pats.

all of which were playoff games.

He also had a pretty good game week 10 of the regular season.

 

[spacecrime]

Again, you need to refresh yourself on Gaffney's situation. The Eagles cut him because they had Reggie Brown, Greg Lewis, had just traded for Hank Baskett, had just drafted Jason Avant and just signed Stallworth. Gaffney was the odd man out. Not because he didn't play well. But because Baskett had played just as well and Avant was a 4th round pick who wasn't going to see a lot of time on the field as the 5th WR.

So how high a draft pick did they the eagles get for Gaffney?

WOW. Talk about revisionist history. Our offense sure as hell did fall apart in the 2nd half.

By my recollection, we scored enough points in the second half alone to win the game if the defense had done its job in the seond half. With about 32 minutes to play, we had a 21-3 lead, and you want to blame the OFFENSE for collapsing in the second half? Are you serious?

I think it is revisionist history for you to say that the defense did get the job done in the second half of the game. Actually, it isn't revisionist. It is simply wrong. The defense allowed 15 points in the third quarter and 17 points in the fourth quarter. When a defense allows 32 points per half, it is generally thought that the defense fell apart. Like PoeSixPat, this concept is so far out there I am tempted to think you are just trying to be a dink. But to give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you sincerely believe that allowing 32 points per half (64 points per game) is the hallmark of a defense doing its job, and that scoring 13 points per half (26 points per game) is the sign of an offense that "fell apart."

You want to screw around and play the contrarian, good for you. Just don't get so upset when people think you are being a dink and aren't being serious. And I've seen too many of your posts for me to believe that you seriously think that scoring at a rate of 26 points a game is a sign of an offense that fell apart, or that allowing points a rate of 64 points a game isn't a sign the the defense isn't doing its job. You just aren't that stupid, so why your long post?

But all this is simply misdirection adn takes the discussion off topic. What I found laughable in the first post of the thread is that Gaffney and Washington would be solid #2 and #3 WRs for a lot of teams. Okay, tell you what: How about you name all these NFL teams on which Gaffney or Washington would be the Number two receiver?

I'll be gald when the season starts and we can talk about what is happening, instead of all this "we've got all these players who won't make out team so let's trade them instead of cutting them" baloney. Haven't we learned anything from Rohan?

 

[spacecrime]

Gaffney had 3 good games with the pats.

all of which were playoff games.

He also had a pretty good game week 10 of the regular season.

Post season: 21 catches in 3 games, total of 244 yards.

Regular season: 11 catches in 11 games. (3 of the catches were in week 10)

How high of a draft pick would you give for this "solid #2 receiver"?

 

[Keegs]

Post season: 21 catches in 3 games, total of 244 yards.

Regular season: 11 catches in 11 games. (3 of the catches were in week 10)

How high of a draft pick would you give for this "solid #2 receiver"?

I never said i would give a draft pick for him. I don't make those decisions and we already have him so i'm not sure what you are asking me that for.

But these were Jabar's top games......

Regular Season:
Week 10 vs. Jets 3 catches 65 yards
Postseason:

vs. Jets 8 Catches 104 yards
vs. SD 10 Catches 103 yards TD
vs. Indy 3 Catches 37 yards TD (bailing out Reche's first choke)

I see that you like to manipulate data and leave out information.
You shouldn't do that.

I got a kick out of you leaving out the touchdowns in his postseason stats. Of course you did that on purpose to downplay his performance.

You also found it necessary to leave out the fact that He joined in October and only started 6 games.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Post season: 21 catches in 3 games, total of 244 yards.

Regular season: 11 catches in 11 games. (3 of the catches were in week 10)

How high of a draft pick would you give for this "solid #2 receiver"?

That's not bad for a guy who came to a team mid year, took a few weeks to learn the system and peaked in the playoffs. And am I to believe you think that playoff production is Rohan Davey-like? Are you aware of what Rohan Davey's post-season production is?

I'd think some GMs might be eager to see what he could do with significant training camp time and a full season. I'll assume you are ignoring the fact that Gaffney came to the team late, didn't have the benefit of a pre-season and clearly was just hitting his stride in the playoffs. Most GMs don't miss those things though.

Let's make this easy on you spacecrime - although you might think BB is a blumbering fool for trading for Doug Gabriel last season, giving up a 5th round pick - when after all he could have just waited til he was cut - what do you think the trade value for Reche Caldwell?

Gabriel was coming off a 37 catch season in 14 games whereas Caldwell's coming off of a 61 catch season over 16 games.

I think I already know your response is going to be "you're delusional - Caldwell is the 2nd coming of Rohan Davey" but something tells me that Caldwell might have more trade value than Doug Gabriel did at the time we got him from the Raiders.

 

[PatsFan37]

What matters to the other 31 teams is the apparent value of the receiver in measurables (i.e. potential) and production. What matters to the Patriots is production in their system, Brady's comfort level, versatility and intangibles.

Caldwell has all of it going for him except for the versatility, he doesn't play STs. Maybe that changes this year.

Washington has great measurables and potential, but his lack of familiarity and production in the system will surely hurt him. We may see a lot of him in pre-season games both to test him and to showcase him for a trade. The fans will be rooting to keep him while BB has other plans. I see the real competition between Gaffney and Washington, with the one who is traded determined by a combination of value on the roster and value in a trade.

If another team will give, say, a sixth for Gaffney and a fifth for Washington, and BB has a slight preference for Washington and a loaded roster at WR, he still might take the fifth (so to speak).

As for Caldwell, it's hard to imagine the coaches releasing the one WR with the most production last year, when it costs so little to keep him.

(For all of you out there who can't get over his eyes, after watching Caldwell take that incredible hit and get back on the field after a few plays, I couldn't believe MY eyes. He has tremendous character and selflessness. I wish for those who make fun of him, a big wart on the tip of your nose, to help redirect your vision inward.)

 

[DaBruinz]

So how high a draft pick did they the eagles get for Gaffney?

Glad to see that you continue to be the dink that you claim JSP is being. Or maybe you are just being ignorant. I already said that Gaffney was let go at the end of training camp and that most teams were already SET at their positions when he was released.

By my recollection, we scored enough points in the second half alone to win the game if the defense had done its job in the seond half. With about 32 minutes to play, we had a 21-3 lead, and you want to blame the OFFENSE for collapsing in the second half? Are you serious?

I blame them BOTH. Ignorant people like yourself only blame one or the other. So, how about you do everyone a favor and perform the cranial rectal inversion that you so badly need on yourself.

I think it is revisionist history for you to say that the defense did get the job done in the second half of the game. Actually, it isn't revisionist. It is simply wrong. The defense allowed 15 points in the third quarter and 17 points in the fourth quarter. When a defense allows 32 points per half, it is generally thought that the defense fell apart. Like PoeSixPat, this concept is so far out there I am tempted to think you are just trying to be a dink. But to give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you sincerely believe that allowing 32 points per half (64 points per game) is the hallmark of a defense doing its job, and that scoring 13 points per half (26 points per game) is the sign of an offense that "fell apart."

Please show me where I said that they did their job. Now you are just being friggin stupid to be stupid.

You want to screw around and play the contrarian, good for you. Just don't get so upset when people think you are being a dink and aren't being serious. And I've seen too many of your posts for me to believe that you seriously think that scoring at a rate of 26 points a game is a sign of an offense that fell apart, or that allowing points a rate of 64 points a game isn't a sign the the defense isn't doing its job. You just aren't that stupid, so why your long post?

Did the Patriots score enough to win the game? NOPE. They didn't. But it IS a team sport. I guess you fail to recognize it. Its hilarious that you think that it was ONLY the defenses fault. Shows a complete lack of understanding about how one side directly affects the other.

But all this is simply misdirection adn takes the discussion off topic. What I found laughable in the first post of the thread is that Gaffney and Washington would be solid #2 and #3 WRs for a lot of teams. Okay, tell you what: How about you name all these NFL teams on which Gaffney or Washington would be the Number two receiver?

I'll be gald when the season starts and we can talk about what is happening, instead of all this "we've got all these players who won't make out team so let's trade them instead of cutting them" baloney. Haven't we learned anything from Rohan?

You clearly haven't looked around the league lately to see the quality of receivers beyond a team's number one.

Its my belief that Gaffney and Washington could be the #2 or #3 receiver on the following teams:
Bears, Packers, Vikings, Ravens, Bills, Browns, Texans, Chiefs, Giants, Steelers and possibly Tampa and Washington.

OH, btw, Brandon Gorin and Ross Tucker say hi...

 

[DaBruinz]

What matters to the other 31 teams is the apparent value of the receiver in measurables (i.e. potential) and production. What matters to the Patriots is production in their system, Brady's comfort level, versatility and intangibles.

Caldwell has all of it going for him except for the versatility, he doesn't play STs. Maybe that changes this year.

Caldwell has played a bit on special teams when he was in San Diego. Both as a Kick Return and a Punt Returner. And he was a gunner for a bit as well.

 

[Brady'sButtBoy]

I love a good debate but some of you guys have got to get over having the last word all the time! I can't be the only one tired of seeing one pi$$ing match after another from several of the posters here...

If you want to prove your point to each other then PM yourselves right to exhaustion, but can't there be room for other folks to feel like their posts won't be swallowed up by this relentless back and forth?

 

[JoeSixPat]

I love a good debate but some of you guys have got to get over having the last word all the time! I can't be the only one tired of seeing one pi$$ing match after another from several of the posters here...

If you want to prove your point to each other then PM yourselves right to exhaustion, but can't there be room for other folks to feel like their posts won't be swallowed up by this relentless back and forth?

Football info and debates are what goes on around here - though when someone seems to think they've got the one right answer and insults other people as being delusional for thinking that our WRs have every bit as much a chance of having trade value as say, someone like Doug Gabriel - yes, people do get a bit defensive and want to push back against such a narrow view.

The good news is that someone - DaBruinz I think - did go to the trouble of looking into team depth and did provide some substantial insight into which teams might be interested in adding some WR depth.